Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

[thankyouOB]

However, I would not be able to bring myself in good conscience to go out of my way to abuse my LEAF's battery, especially considering that a large factor in my purchase of this car was environmental stewardship.

Same here. If my Leaf was right on the edge (3 bars + loser) at say, 55,000 miles I might be willing to give it a little "push", but just can't bring myself to abuse the battery or even push it hard otherwise. Lost my second bar recently at 40,000 miles and almost 4 years, so it would take a lot of abuse to lose 2 more bars in one year even if I wanted to go that route. I will probably be a 4 bar loser at 60,000 miles and 6 years, although if the battery aging model is accurate I might be able to go to 70,000 miles and 7 years. If the latter I would be pretty satisfied overall. However, while I was 0.5% ahead of the battery aging model a year ago, I am now 0.7% behind the battery aging model. I suspect the difference will increase quite a bit over the next 1-2 years, as calendar aging doesn't appear to be slowing down as much as the model predicts.

I am a rower in this boat, too.
down two bars about 6 months ago; today's stats are: 44k miles and 4 years plus a month of ownership (not counting losing two months of usage to two separate car repairs).
annual mileage will be way down now with no more commute; so doing closer to 3k miles a year sted of 12k.
i am handicapped in being able to use the car for day trips to museums and other LA sites, but otherwise it continues to serve.
total maintenance has been about $400 in four years, except for replacing the tires early on.

still happy with the car (but I have an ICE alternative), but I will want to test the range soon.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The Low Battery Warning and Very Low Battery warning are dependent on GIDs (a fixed unit of energy).

50 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 4kWh stored (about 3.3kWh usable)
25 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 2kWh stored (about 1.3kWh usable)

I had a feeling this was the case - thanks for confirming (and for providing numbers!). I have noticed that as my battery degrades, I still seem to have the same capacity below LBW - I just hit it sooner.

 

[thankyouOB]

The Low Battery Warning and Very Low Battery warning are dependent on GIDs (a fixed unit of energy).

50 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 4kWh stored (about 3.3kWh usable)
25 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 2kWh stored (about 1.3kWh usable)

I had a feeling this was the case - thanks for confirming (and for providing numbers!). I have noticed that as my battery degrades, I still seem to have the same capacity below LBW - I just hit it sooner.

what do these two markers translate to in terms of range?

my calculations seem to come out too high for my typical 4.0 - 4.4 miles/kWh.
that would mean i could get about 3.3 x 4 = 13 miles at LBW
and
5 miles at VLBW.

is that right?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The Low Battery Warning and Very Low Battery warning are dependent on GIDs (a fixed unit of energy).

50 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 4kWh stored (about 3.3kWh usable)
25 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 2kWh stored (about 1.3kWh usable)

I had a feeling this was the case - thanks for confirming (and for providing numbers!). I have noticed that as my battery degrades, I still seem to have the same capacity below LBW - I just hit it sooner.

what do these two markers translate to in terms of range?

my calculations seem to come out too high for my typical 4.0 - 4.4 miles/kWh.
that would mean i could get about 3.3 x 4 = 13 miles at LBW
and
5 miles at VLBW.

is that right?

Yes.

 

[thankyouOB]

Yes.

tnx

 

[eloder]

Source for the above, esp. the Smart ED? How are they determining this capacity loss?

(I don't care as much about Volt given what Tony already posted...)

To maintain the smart's battery warranty, they do require annual maintenance--as well as for the optional extended-warranty Battery Assurance Plus program, which is included on every lease. There's a print-out of their battery diagnostic you can request that includes a measurement similar to the GIDs that people use for Leaf to measure absolute energy capacity left.

The Volt info is pretty neat, I wasn't aware Chevy would tap into the dormant battery capacity to prevent degradation as seen by the end-user. I actually have no idea if a similar "trick" is used for smart.

 

[TimLee]

...
When the lowest cell voltage hits 3.0 volts, the main contactor will open and you are dead in the water.
...

I let my two capacity bar loss 2011 LEAF go to contact opening yesterday and determined that it was NOT triggered by lowest cell voltage being 3.0 volts.

Turtle happened at 0.4 kWh remaining.
At turtle drive power is limited to 20 kW and HVAC is eliminated.
Blower will run off the 12V, but AC or heat will not operate.
At turtle lowest cell voltage was around 3.2 volts with cell low to high up around 240 mV.

As I watched lowest cell voltage was down to around 3.109.
But LEAF was still doing cell balancing.
The lowest cell voltage turned and improved.
It climbed back to near 3.2 volts with cell low to high improved to 192 mV.

And then the Turtle indication disappeared when it opened the contactor.
Remaining was still 0.3 kWh at that point.
Unclear to me what value it used to determine it was necessary to open the contactor.

Vehicle was parked in garage.
But it would not have driven very far with only 0.1 kWh.
I was lucky I made it into the garage when it Turtled on the hill previously 500 feet from the garage :shock:

 

[LeafSwe]

...
When the lowest cell voltage hits 3.0 volts, the main contactor will open and you are dead in the water.
...

I let my two capacity bar loss 2011 LEAF go to contact opening yesterday and determined that it was NOT triggered by lowest cell voltage being 3.0 volts.

Turtle happened at 0.4 kWh remaining.
At turtle drive power is limited to 20 kW and HVAC is eliminated.
Blower will run off the 12V, but AC or heat will not operate.
At turtle lowest cell voltage was around 3.2 volts with cell low to high up around 240 mV.

As I watched lowest cell voltage was down to around 3.109.
But LEAF was still doing cell balancing.
The lowest cell voltage turned and improved.
It climbed back to near 3.2 volts with cell low to high improved to 192 mV.

And then the Turtle indication disappeared when it opened the contactor.
Remaining was still 0.3 kWh at that point.
Unclear to me what value it used to determine it was necessary to open the contactor.

Vehicle was parked in garage.
But it would not have driven very far with only 0.1 kWh.
I was lucky I made it into the garage when it Turtled on the hill previously 500 feet from the garage :shock:

I have tested turtle and contactor open on both 2012 and 2014 Leaf.
I can still drive the car with cell voltage average under 3,0.
Here is a snapshot at turtle just before contactor open.
2.588 2.715 2.826 (238mV)
So i think it is the cell balance that triggers turtle, not just specific voltage.

http://postimg.org/image/hwooqqbn3/

 

[TimLee]

I have tested turtle and contactor open on both 2012 and 2014 Leaf.
I can still drive the car with cell voltage average under 3,0.
Here is a snapshot at turtle just before contactor open.
2.588 2.715 2.826 (238mV)
So i think it is the cell balance that triggers turtle, not just specific voltage.

http://postimg.org/image/hwooqqbn3/

That performance on a fairly new LEAF sure is a lot different than what my 2011 with two lost capacity bars, just under 50 AHr did.

I think you are correct about cell balance being the trigger.

But cell balance was improving when the contactor opened.

2013 forward spend a lot more time balancing when nearly fully charged.
My 2011 may need some low amp 120V charging.

But my LEAF also shows eight weak cells on the CVLI test.
But they only show weak until battery imbalance gets up to around 65 mV.
After that they all show OK and never show weak as you charge back up either.

 

[JasonA]

I was in turtle coming back from Tony's and had quite abit cell imbalance on the bottom end but I've seen 3 Gids and THEN it shut down 400 feet from the damn charger on me!

And I had to push the rest of the way.

2.9v for the lowest

Battery was 36*c and still sitting at 12.5% capacity. 303v

 

[Leafer77]

There's still a chance!

I thought my case with the BBB was closed, but I got a call from the BBB. They told me that I'm being scheduled to have an arbitration hearing in San Diego towards the end of June or early July. They also recommended I attend in-person.

I've posted most of the details about my complaint in my original post. If people have any thoughts or suggestions, please don't hesitate to share them.

 

[ElectricEddy]

Sorry if someone else said this in 5 pages of posts already but have you brought up the fact (first test it in your own car) that most leafs with 16 in 205 55 16 put about 2.5% more miles on the odo than you actually travel?

Get a GPS, use mile markers and do a test. If that's true, and if you brought the car to a dealer to document the loss at the 6100 then you actually only drove 59658.

If your ODO is off by less than 2% and or you took it to the dealer a few hundred miles after it dropped you might not have anything.

It might not get you a full warrantee, and you may need to get a lawyer involved but it might get you some help.

As Canadian owners we have the advantage of a capacity warranty greater than our U.S. counterparts (100,000 kms or 60 months, whichever comes first). 100,000 kms = 62,137 miles. Leafer77, that would put you 987 miles before capacity warranty expiration. Maybe add that to your legal documentation. I will be doing a gps test on mileage when approaching 50,000 kms or so, I do however have the 17" wheels so displayed may be closer to actual kms driven.

 

[Leafer77]

Sorry if someone else said this in 5 pages of posts already but have you brought up the fact (first test it in your own car) that most leafs with 16 in 205 55 16 put about 2.5% more miles on the odo than you actually travel?

Get a GPS, use mile markers and do a test. If that's true, and if you brought the car to a dealer to document the loss at the 6100 then you actually only drove 59658.

If your ODO is off by less than 2% and or you took it to the dealer a few hundred miles after it dropped you might not have anything.

It might not get you a full warrantee, and you may need to get a lawyer involved but it might get you some help.

As Canadian owners we have the advantage of a capacity warranty greater than our U.S. counterparts (100,000 kms or 60 months, whichever comes first). 100,000 kms = 62,137 miles. Leafer77, that would put you 987 miles before capacity warranty expiration. Maybe add that to your legal documentation. I will be doing a gps test on mileage when approaching 50,000 kms or so, I do however have the 17" wheels so displayed may be closer to actual kms driven.

I'll definitely have to add this to the case. I found some instructions on how to do this, so hopefully these work:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2002-02-25/business/0202250001_1_odometer-mile-marker-highway" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Leafer77]

My Arbitration hearing is on Wednesday 7/8, so here's what I going with:

Problem statement: The Nissan Leaf 2011 Lithium-Ion Battery has a defect that has caused the vehicle to suffer from significant battery capacity loss in a short period of time, and should be covered by the 8 year 100,000 Lithium-Ion battery warranty.

Evidence:

1. Details of my mileage and dates of when the capacity bar's were lost.
2. Vehicle driving range was initially over 85+ miles, but is now down to 40 miles, in less than 3 years 8 months of ownership.
3. The number of vehicles documented in the MyNissanLeaf forum's Wiki for Lithium-ion battery replacement, demonstrates a high level of community documented battery failures.
4. Battery warranty by other Electric Vehicle manufacturers.
5. Vehicle marketing claiming 100 miles.
6. The wrong vehicle (Nissan QX56) sticker provided to me at purchase, which prevented me from reviewing range of the vehicle. (I have a copy of the other vehicle sticker the dealer gave me.)

Witnesses:

My carpool co-worker, who owns his own Nissan Leaf and has almost hit the four capacity bar loss. I'm open to any other volunteer's.

Please don't hesitate to post a reply or share any other suggestions or documentation that I provide at my arbitration hearing.

 

[Valdemar]

I'd also take the original paperwork you signed that states the "80% remaining after 5 years" estimate by Nissan, as well as annual battery reports especially if all were "5-star" to show your usage of the car fell within Nissan's guidelines yet the battery still suffered from significant capacity loss.

Where is the hearing? I can be a witness if it is somewhere in LA. I likely won't be able to make it to the Escondido/San Diego area in my Leaf which has 50 mile freeway range. In any case I'm very interested how this will go, as I'll be trying the same route in the near future.

EDIT: just saw above it is in San Diego

 

[cwerdna]

My Arbitration hearing is on Wednesday 7/8, so here's what I going with:

Problem statement: The Nissan Leaf 2011 Lithium-Ion Battery has a defect that has caused the vehicle to suffer from significant battery capacity loss in a short period of time, and should be covered by the 8 year 100,000 Lithium-Ion battery warranty.
...
2. Vehicle driving range was initially over 85+ miles, but is now down to 40 miles, in less than 3 years 8 months of ownership.

Good luck w/that.

The '11 warranty booklet specifically states
"GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion
batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time
and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting
from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this
warranty."

There also some useful tidbits in the 1st post of http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694.

Search for word years at
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1040181_nissan-leaf-battery-upgrades-secondary-use-part-of-the-plan
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077805_nissans-mark-perry-were-investigating-arizonas-wilting-leafs

'11 Leaf owners manual also states (on page 23 of the PDF, page EV-3)
"NISSAN estimates that
battery capacity will be approximately
80% of original capacity after five
years, although this is only an estimate,
and this percentage may vary (and
could be significantly lower) depending
on individual vehicle and Li-ion battery
usage."

Also found http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/us-united-states-nissan-models-leaf/releases/9e52e314-bdac-4e06-9aa5-d3b4dcfd2b33?page=17&query via a Google search for site:nissannews.com leaf years percent battery capacity five.

Skip to ~0:50 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShtvd5jJHQ.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1tfX7fRWPI. Discussion at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10257.

I haven't re-read your earlier posts, but you will probably want to provide evidence of how you derived that "85+ miles" and "40 miles". What's your metric? Is it some steady speed or controlled range test and not based on the crap GOM?

I personally get quite annoyed when people complain about range but can't answer many of the questions at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421 or dodge them or disappear w/o answering them. And, I also am somewhat annoyed by people who leave a decent amount of range on the table by prematurely calling it quits (e.g. at LBW. the 1st warning).

HTH.

 

[Valdemar]

Not sure about Leafer, but with at most 15kWh usable available from my pack I almost find your questionnaire offensive. I can squeeze 60 miles still with some freeway to under VLBW and not sweat it (do it daily), but it is likely way out of comfort zone for most others. I can see a 4-bar looser can easily be a 40-45 mile range car. I don't expect a favorable outcome for Leafer from this arbitration for the reasons you listed, but heck who knows. I have nothing to lose so will be trying the same once my 4th bar is gone, which won't be too long from now.

 

[Leafer77]

My Arbitration hearing is on Wednesday 7/8, so here's what I going with:

Problem statement: The Nissan Leaf 2011 Lithium-Ion Battery has a defect that has caused the vehicle to suffer from significant battery capacity loss in a short period of time, and should be covered by the 8 year 100,000 Lithium-Ion battery warranty.
...
2. Vehicle driving range was initially over 85+ miles, but is now down to 40 miles, in less than 3 years 8 months of ownership.

Good luck w/that.

The '11 warranty booklet specifically states
"GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion
batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time
and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting
from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this
warranty."

'11 Leaf owners manual also states (on page 23 of the PDF, page EV-3)
"NISSAN estimates that
battery capacity will be approximately
80% of original capacity after five
years, although this is only an estimate,
and this percentage may vary (and
could be significantly lower) depending
on individual vehicle and Li-ion battery
usage."

I haven't re-read your earlier posts, but you will probably want to provide evidence of how you derived that "85+ miles" and "40 miles". What's your metric? Is it some steady speed or controlled range test and not based on the crap GOM?

I personally get quite annoyed when people complain about range but can't answer many of the questions at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421 or dodge them or disappear w/o answering them. And, I also am somewhat annoyed by people who leave a decent amount of range on the table by prematurely calling it quits (e.g. at LBW. the 1st warning).

HTH.

Thank you for sharing the links and resources. These might be helpful tomorrow. I'm focusing my argument on that the battery loss is not "gradual" and exceeded my expectations, along with what Nissan was communicating to its customers. Therefore, the normal battery capacity warranty should not apply.

My driving range is based on a full charge and me reaching VLBW, once experiencing "Turtle". Without being too specific on this forum, my route is from San Marcos, CA to just off the Genessee via the 15S/163S, which according to Google Maps is 30.8 miles. No extreme hills or elevation changes. Traveling at 65MPH, without AC. Tires are at about 40PSI.

 

[PowayDon]

Best of luck to Leafer77 tomorrow!

I purchased my 2012 with one capacity bar missing. Low miles and BS from dealership led me to believe it was a good deal. Then I lost bar 2.
Now I want a warranty replacement battery!
I have lots of miles left but running on time. I believe the car was first sold in May of 2012.
At 100% charged, Gids is at 215, SOC at 93%, SOH is at 78%.
Live in Poway, inland San Diego, it gets in the 90’s during summer heat waves.
What do you folks think my chances of getting a new battery under warranty?

 

[dhanson865]

Best of luck to Leafer77 tomorrow!

I purchased my 2012 with one capacity bar missing. Low miles and BS from dealership led me to believe it was a good deal. Then I lost bar 2.
Now I want a warranty replacement battery!
I have lots of miles left but running on time. I believe the car was first sold in May of 2012.
At 100% charged, Gids is at 215, SOC at 93%, SOH is at 78%.
Live in Poway, inland San Diego, it gets in the 90’s during summer heat waves.
What do you folks think my chances of getting a new battery under warranty?

2012 Leaf SL Blue Ocean
Purchased Used 5-20-15 with 11 bars @ 23,000 miles
Lost bar 11 on 6-18-15. Pissed

Try stoaty's calculator.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14858

and give us the data when you lose your 3rd and 4th bars. See the wiki in my signature for listings of others that lost bars near you and for an idea what info we want for the database.