EV1 compared to Leaf

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wsbsteven

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
47
Location
Saint Louis, MO
After researching EV history (watching the Who killed/revenge of documentary, reading about VIN 99's 3k trip, etc) I'm wondering why the Leaf doesn't have better range. The EV1 and Leaf have similar ranges yet the gen 1 EV1 used SLA batteries. The curb weight was lower in the EV1 as it was smaller and it was also more aerodynamic which makes a difference. The Leaf has better battery chemistry and we don't have increased range and the EV1 seemed to charge faster too. Is this just a case of the Leaf needs more battery cells and not waiting for new xyz battery tech to be invented?

I know we have former EV1 owners that post here and drive the Leaf as well as enthusiasts that were EV1 lovers from the beginning. My question to those people is, would you agree that the issue of range is just a capacity issue and not a technology issue? Also comment or correct any of the points I made in the first paragraph if you disagree with them. If you were an EV1 owner, please make sure you note that in your comments.

I wonder if the EV1 was so far ahead of it's time that anything we do currently can only match it, not improve upon it.
 
I think Tesla iterated on a number of key issues, and Model S offers innovations and improvements in a number of key areas. This only thing that they need to work on now is price.
 
wsbsteven said:
After researching EV history (watching the Who killed/revenge of documentary, reading about VIN 99's 3k trip, etc) I'm wondering why the Leaf doesn't have better range. ...
The answer to a question like that is always money. The EV1 didn't make money. The LEAF may or may not be making money. Even if it is, Nissan is going to want to make more money and/or lower the price of the car before increasing the range. The car manufacturers have basically decided that 80-100 miles is the lowest range a car can offer and sell. Look at the Mitsubishi "i" with a 65 mile range and no buyers.

Range on these non-luxury cars won't go up until the market forces/allows it to.
 
davewill said:
Look at the Mitsubishi "i" with a 65 mile range and no buyers.

I think there are more issues besides the lack of range that's turning off Americans to the iMiEV. Like the way it looks.
 
RonDawg said:
davewill said:
Look at the Mitsubishi "i" with a 65 mile range and no buyers.

I think there are more issues besides the lack of range that's turning off Americans to the iMiEV. Like the way it looks.

To me it's not so much the styling as the chintziness of the interior.
 
wsbsteven said:
After researching EV history (watching the Who killed/revenge of documentary, reading about VIN 99's 3k trip, etc) I'm wondering why the Leaf doesn't have better range. The EV1 and Leaf have similar ranges yet the gen 1 EV1 used SLA batteries. The curb weight was lower in the EV1 as it was smaller and it was also more aerodynamic which makes a difference. The Leaf has better battery chemistry and we don't have increased range and the EV1 seemed to charge faster too. Is this just a case of the Leaf needs more battery cells and not waiting for new xyz battery tech to be invented?
I suspect the correct comparison might be EV1 to Tesla Roadster. Using that comparison, EVs have come a very long ways in range and amenities. And I think the real prices were comparable. What hasn't happened yet is that the price hasn't been cut dramatically. In their attempts to create sub $40K cars both GM and Nissan had to make major compromises. Mitsubishi compromised even more to push the price point down further. Price reductions will come only with high volume production.

Ray
 
davewill said:
wsbsteven said:
After researching EV history (watching the Who killed/revenge of documentary, reading about VIN 99's 3k trip, etc) I'm wondering why the Leaf doesn't have better range. ...
The answer to a question like that is always money. The EV1 didn't make money. The LEAF may or may not be making money. Even if it is, Nissan is going to want to make more money and/or lower the price of the car before increasing the range. The car manufacturers have basically decided that 80-100 miles is the lowest range a car can offer and sell. Look at the Mitsubishi "i" with a 65 mile range and no buyers.

Range on these non-luxury cars won't go up until the market forces/allows it to.
I disagree. I'd argue that market forces show that people will pay for range. Tesla is selling more cars than Nissan or Chevy for a car 2-3x the price. Even there they offered three different battery sizes. No one wanted the smallest battery.

It shows that people will pay for range, but the manufacturers don't want or know how to provide adequate range. The ELR is less range than the Volt despite a much higher price. Going the wrong way.
 
Some previous discussion at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12677" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Perhaps the threads should be merged?

Do watch darelldd's video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LE062OfrN4&fmt=18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
 
dm33 said:
I disagree. I'd argue that market forces show that people will pay for range. Tesla is selling more cars than Nissan or Chevy for a car 2-3x the price. Even there they offered three different battery sizes. No one wanted the smallest battery.

It shows that people will pay for range, but the manufacturers don't want or know how to provide adequate range. The ELR is less range than the Volt despite a much higher price. Going the wrong way.

If that were true, the RAV-4 EV would have sold out its 2600-vehicle production allotment by now. But as it is Toyota has had to add considerable incentives (up to $10k in some areas, NOT including any government incentives) and no-interest financing to move them.

There are other reasons besides range why the Tesla has been selling as well as it has.
 
^^^
On that note, dm33 should take a look at Rav4 EV sales at http://www.hybridcars.com/july-2013-dashboard/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2012-dashboard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, to get an idea how sluggishly their sales have been, despite some pretty big incentives after not very long.

They went on sale just a few days before the 2012 Alt Car Expo (http://web.archive.org/web/20121003032451/http://altcarexpo.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
 
$50k excluding taxes/reg/etc. and before manufacturer and government incentives. But if you don't live in California you have to find a dealer in this state who's willing to sell it to an out-of-stater and ship it to you. If you buy locally and drive it off the lot, you will pay local sales tax (can be near 10% in some areas) and CA reg fees, in top of any taxes or fees you would owe in your home state.
 
It used SLA and still had a lower curb weight? And charged faster?

With SLA, wouldn't you need to charge right after every drive?

A Tesla is great if you can swing it, but the Leaf is pretty damn good enough for a mass produced, global, affordble EV you can actually own. With both, a good beginning to the EV age.

What's the next movie? "Victory of the Electric Car"?
 
From http://www.evnut.com/ev1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is a promo bit on the EV1. Note that the specs given are all in relation to the original, crappy batteries that offered very little range. These were soon changed out to the Panasonic lead acid batteries, and then finally the NiMH batteries which both offered superior range and reliability.
The car was only a 2-seater.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
A Tesla is great if you can swing it, but the Leaf is pretty damn good enough for a mass produced, global, affordble EV you can actually own. With both, a good beginning to the EV age.
This
 
cossie1600 said:
How much is the RAV4 EV, I want one


http://www.buyatoyota.com/Specials/SpecialOffers.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Offer Ends 9/3/2013:

PURCHASE

No stated Toyota discount.

CAVEAT EMPTOR: known dealer scam is to sell you a "used" car and keep the tax credits and rebates. See below:

$7500 federal credit (IRS form 8936) applies to new cars only with purchase only (not a lease). You get this when you file IRS form 8936 with your federal taxes. No carryovers to the following tax year, so you need to owe the IRS at least $7500 this year.

$2,500 California state rebate to for new cars only (your state or province may also have incentives for out of state sales).

CAVEAT EMPTOR: known dealer scam is to sell you a "used" car and keep the tax credits and rebates.

0.0% APR for 36 months, 0.0% APR for 48 months or 0.0% APR for 60 months. Includes ToyotaCare

0.0% APR includes 36 monthly payments of $27.78 per $1000 borrowed. 0.0% APR includes 48 monthly payments of $20.83 per $1000 borrowed. 0.0% APR includes 60 monthly payments of $16.67 per $1000 borrowed.

For example 10% down. Down payment varies with credit. Available through Toyota Financial Services to qualified Tier 1 + (plus), Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3 credit customers. Available on a new 2013 RAV4EV purchased out of dealer stock by midnight 9/3/2013. Offers cannot be combined. See your Toyota dealer for details.

LEASE

$299 a month plus tax for 36 months, limited miles
$329 a month plus tax for 36 months, Special Payment for Unlimited Mileage
$3,499 Drive-off
After $15,400 Lease Cash is applied NOTE: last month this was called "$15,400 TFS Subvention Lease Cash" Apparently, you get to pay sales tax on the discount!!! CAVEAT EMPTOR
Sales tax not included and is calculated (estimated at $1,600) before lease cash is applied. Includes ToyotaCare

$7500 federal credit (IRS form 8936) applies to new cars only with purchase only, not on a lease, and $2,500 California state rebate to for new cars only (your state or province may also have incentives for out of state sales). CAVEAT EMPTOR: known dealer scam is to sell you a "used" car and keep the tax credit.

Lease Cash must be applied to lease down payment. Lease available only through Toyota Financial Services to qualified buyers. Offer excludes applicable taxes and fees. No security deposit required. You pay excess wear and tear, plus $.15 per mile over 36,000 miles at lease end. Lease payments may vary from dealer to dealer based on final negotiated price and equipment chosen. Lease offer is example only and applies only to new 2013 Toyota RAV4 EV Model #4480. Example vehicle may not be available at all dealers. Must be leased from new car dealer stock by midnight 09/03/2013. Lease example requires dealer contribution. Individual dealer lease terms may vary.

********************

The only differences between a 2013 and 2012 model year is the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) has a "D" the replaces the "C" in the 8th digit from the right. You will find the VIN through the front window, looking from the outside on the driver's side, at the bottom.

I do not expect that there will be many 2012 model year cars still available. The 2014 model year will be the last of the run after 2600 total are produced. Toyota will then offer a hydrogen powered car starting late 2014 for California Air Resources Board - Zero Emission Vehicle compliance, as the Rav4 EV is now for 2012-2014.

*************************

$7500 federal tax credit is on a purchase ONLY !!! CAVEAT EMPTOR: Toyota does not pass this credit to you on a lease - CHANGE FOR JULY 2013, they have begun offering you the $7500 fed tax credit in the lease.

$2500 California state credit does apply to lease or purchase for California only. Your state or province may also have incentives.

***************************

TYPICAL PURCHASE:

$2000 - $4000 typical dealers discounts (the dealers are getting 2% "holdback", and the salesperson gets $1000 from Toyota USA and the sales manager get $500... don't worry about hammering them on a good deal)

$7500 federal tax credit purchase ONLY !!! (NOTE: Toyota does not pass this credit to you on a lease - CAVEAT EMPTOR).

BE VERY CAREFUL THAT THE DEALER IS NOT SELLING YOU A USED CAR!!! YOU WILL NOT QUALIFY FOR THIS CREDIT. THIS IS A KNOWN DEALER SCAM, AS THEY TAKE THE $7,500 FEDERAL TAX CREDIT FOR THEMSELVES.

$2500 California state credit for lease or purchase; Apply here. Obviously, out-of-state buyers don't get this, but instead you will get your state or local government incentives.

Sales tax - on an "in-state" purchase, you pay the applicable tax for your county/city. For an in state lease, you pay a "use tax" on the monthly payment. For out-of-state, you pay nothing to California with a proper Bill of Laden from a shipping company. DO NOT TAKE DELIVERY IN CALIFORNIA unless you want to pay our taxes!!! You will pay applicable taxes in your out-of-state jurisdiction. There's a whole thread devoted to out-of-state purchases and leases.

Typical purchase deals for NEW (not used) should look like this:

New Rav4 EV (not used)


$50,870 Retail MSRP (inc floor mats and destination, add $200 for white)


($2,000-$4,000) Dealer Discount

($9,300 - $10,000) Toyota Cash with 0.0% interest for 60 months

$80 doc fee

$36,870 - $39,570 net cost plus tax and license. This is what you will pay in the dealership without tax or shipping from California to your out of state location.

$5,000 sales tax and license plates in California. Your state may vary wildly.


Then:

($7,500) Fed Tax Credit (you will get this with your taxes with form 8936)
($2,500) CA State Rebate (you will get this when you mail in a form)


$26,870 - $29,570 Total Net Cost plus tax/license



NOTE TO ALL OUT OF STATE BUYERS:

I recommend having a local California current Rav4 EV owner test drive your car at the dealer before shipping to you out of state. My particular car had excessive motor noise from new, so it will be easy to identify the same situation before the car is shipped to you.

IF YOUR CAR IS DELIVERED WITHOUT FUNCTIONING INTERIOR LIGHTS:

A pin is located in the engine bay passenger side fuse box to activate the lights. Inside that fuse box, there is a white "fuse" without any number and that is the "pin". Under the fuse cover, there is a location labeled "short". Put the "pin" into the "short" slot and interior function like light, garage door opener, external door handle switch will be activated.


****************************

Make sure your dealership ticked the correct box for "motive power" on the registration. If they incorrectly entered "gas", you'll need to get it corrected. In California, the DMV requests that the dealership complete Sections G & H of form "Reg 256". For section G, the sample response given was:

"Due to a clerical error on the Report of Sale, the motive power was entered as "gas (G)", when the actual motive power for this vehicle is "100% electric (E)". Please correct. No fraud intended."

The dealer then signs and dates Section H.

****************************

Have you dealer set the reverse beeper that will blast you out of the car in reverse to a single beep. I highly recommend writing this in the contract, particularly for an out of state sale. You will not like this distracting beeping in reverse. Also, I recommend setting the auto door locks to whatever setting you want prior to delivery.

****************************

Apply for your California HOV lane stickers (less than $20) after you have a license plate issued to your car:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/decal.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Interesting that the EV1 had the same T shaped battery arrangement as the Volt. It is one of the reasons I never considered a Volt, that missing 5th seat.
 
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