Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

[PatricioEV]

I drove a Soul EV last weekend here in Austin TX and REALLY liked it. The problem is, my LEAF has been paid off for 2.5 years and there is nothing wrong with it. Well, battery degradation of course, but I'm very close to a new battery under warranty (still under 60k miles). I will say that the ventilated seats are amazing and a wonderful feature to have in the Texas heat. Well, they can't sell me one just yet anyway. Said it will be a couple of months before they can take any orders, but the fact that they have TWO for demos is pretty cool.

Disappointments: why no pano sunroof like ICE Soul? ditto with power driver's seat and rear cupholder. That's really it. Otherwise, I loved it.

Now.. where are those sub-Tesla priced luxury options?

 

[minispeed]

Only for ICE vehicles. Tesla and Tesla drive-line cars don't not have one either.



I'm always a bit amazed how little Teslas are followed by early EV adopters. Most Tesla issues can be diagnosed OTA, and I'm sure they would have some sort of proprietary connection failing that.

Tesla batteries also degrade far less A) In cold weather, and B) in the long term. There are many reports at Tesla Motor Clubs of 170 mile range trips being taken between charges in 10-20 degree F temps at 75 mph. If the Tesla degraded as much as the leaf, you'd see a 100-125 mile ranges instead of 170. Tesla cold weather degradation is more similar to an ICE than it is to a Leaf.

Shorter trips without preconditoning suffer more, but still less than what you see on a Leaf.

The long-term degradation losses are the true champion of the Tesla, with confirmed repots of 8% battery loss after 100k miles of real-world driving.

This is not surprising though, because the Volt and a number of other active TMS / liquid cooled batteries also see Tesla-like short and long term degradation of range.

Since a large part of reduced winter range is the cool dense air that is worse for aerodynamics the Tesla has a huge aero advantage. As it gets colder the advantage is not linear to temperature, the benefit to Tesla and the hit to Nissan are greater as it's colder. If you're talking at 75 mph too the leaf in the winter is like a brick. I drove 45 miles each way down to -30C this winter and the battery would almost always warm up above 0 by the time I got to work. Then there's the natural warming of the battery just from using it. I could quick charge at 80+ amps by the time I got to work. As the battery warms up as you drive the cold battery will be a hit for the first X miles. Hence dealing with a cold battery will affect range for X/84 or X/265.

TMS are great right now because there's no real data to show what will happen with the lizard battery, but ultimately if they can be eliminated and the lizard battery doesn't need it then that is a good thing for all EVs. It makes them cheaper, lighter and able to carry a large battery because of it.

Flip side is some Tesla owners complain about the "phantom" drain that the TMS can cause when parked. You can't always have your cake and eat it too.

 

[nerys]

Ultimately I think I would prefer non TMS.

if they can install sufficient range capacity at a reasonable cost and reasonable replacement cost. I AM OK with a simpler lower maintenance vehicle.

unless TMS is very low cost and very low maintenance? IE how much to repair? how much damage if it fails? what if it leaks INSIDE the array?

if I can hold a solid 75 miles drop dead range (figure that means 200 mile optimal new range) for 10 years (250,000 miles or so) and a $6000 replacement cost.

I AM OK with that.

 

[dhanson865]

I'd be happy with something more TMSish than the cold weather pack/battery heater already in the Leaf but less TMSish than the Tesla setup. Maybe manual control or software set points so that we can decide how much power for TMS vs range we are willing to spend.

 

[lorenfb]

Interesting view points on TMS recently posted, i.e. not the typical "TMS is a must have.".

 

[nerys]

I wonder if they could make a heat pipe for the TMS system? ie keep the liquid OUT of the battery pack. this way if it develops a leak the battery won't be .. well .. soaked the idea of any liquid drenching a 400v dc high amp battery is downright scary.

 

[dhanson865]

I wonder if they could make a heat pipe for the TMS system? ie keep the liquid OUT of the battery pack. this way if it develops a leak the battery won't be .. well .. soaked the idea of any liquid drenching a 400v dc high amp battery is downright scary.

Heat pipes tend to operate at or near vacuum and very very little liquid. If one leaks it's like a drop of steam escapes and the heat pipe is no longer a heat pipe, now it's just a heat sink with a very poor shape.

In short there isn't enough liquid to worry about shorting out a battery pack and what liquid there is will boil away before it could run anywhere it shouldn't.

If you are talking about pumped liquids those aren't usually called a heat pipe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A typical heat pipe consists of a sealed pipe or tube made of a material that is compatible with the working fluid such as copper for water heat pipes, or aluminum for ammonia heat pipes. Typically, a vacuum pump is used to remove the air from the empty heat pipe. The heat pipe is partially filled with a working fluid and then sealed. The working fluid mass is chosen so that the heat pipe contains both vapor and liquid over the operating temperature range. Water heat pipes are sometimes filled by partially filling with water, heating until the water boils and displaces the air, and then sealed while hot.

Working fluids are chosen according to the temperatures at which the heat pipe must operate, with examples ranging from liquid helium for extremely low temperature applications (2–4 K) to mercury (523–923 K), sodium (873–1473 K) and even indium (2000–3000 K) for extremely high temperatures. The vast majority of heat pipes for room temperature applications use ammonia (213–373 K), alcohol (methanol (283–403 K) or ethanol (273–403 K)) or water (298–573 K) as the working fluid. Copper/water heat pipes have a copper envelope, use water as the working fluid and typically operate in the temperature range of 20 to 150 °C

 

[minispeed]

Interesting view points on TMS recently posted, i.e. not the typical "TMS is a must have.".

Those are the people not willing to take a risk on an unproven tech, especially since most of them were, or know someone (through here) that got the bad end of the stick with Nissans early non-TMS battery. I can understand that point of view when talking about buying your next pre-2020 BEV. However if we are going to talk about what is best for the consumerif this lizard pack shows no more than 10% lost over 5 years in the worst hot areas then ultimately from an engineering point of view TMS isn't needed and that is an advantage.

Saying right now "TMS is a must have" and sticking with it forever is like saying 30 years ago "a crank driven fan is a must have" and ignoring advancements in electric fans and the obvious advantages that they can offer.

 

[eloder]

Interesting view points on TMS recently posted, i.e. not the typical "TMS is a must have.".

Those are the people not willing to take a risk on an unproven tech, especially since most of them were, or know someone (through here) that got the bad end of the stick with Nissans early non-TMS battery. I can understand that point of view when talking about buying your next pre-2020 BEV. However if we are going to talk about what is best for the consumerif this lizard pack shows no more than 10% lost over 5 years in the worst hot areas then ultimately from an engineering point of view TMS isn't needed and that is an advantage.

Saying right now "TMS is a must have" and sticking with it forever is like saying 30 years ago "a crank driven fan is a must have" and ignoring advancements in electric fans and the obvious advantages that they can offer.

Certainly, but it's very unlikely that lacking TMS will provide Tesla-level warm and cold longevity given the same number of cycles on the respective battery packs. As far as I've heard, Lizard has no changes related to cold-range degradation (which is mostly the 50%+ in cold weather range reduction on Leaf v. Tesla's more modest 30% reduction numbers at around 0 F).

 

[GerryAZ]

It is amazing to hear that the Soul EV will be available in Texas soon. I stopped by the local Kia dealer (in Phoenix) when I was shopping in January and was told that there were no plans to ship them to Arizona.

Gerry

 

[evnow]

Thinking of merging this thread with the Kia Soul EV thread ...

 

[dhanson865]

Interesting view points on TMS recently posted, i.e. not the typical "TMS is a must have.".

Those are the people not willing to take a risk on an unproven tech, especially since most of them were, or know someone (through here) that got the bad end of the stick with Nissans early non-TMS battery. I can understand that point of view when talking about buying your next pre-2020 BEV. However if we are going to talk about what is best for the consumerif this lizard pack shows no more than 10% lost over 5 years in the worst hot areas then ultimately from an engineering point of view TMS isn't needed and that is an advantage.

Saying right now "TMS is a must have" and sticking with it forever is like saying 30 years ago "a crank driven fan is a must have" and ignoring advancements in electric fans and the obvious advantages that they can offer.

Certainly, but it's very unlikely that lacking TMS will provide Tesla-level warm and cold longevity given the same number of cycles on the respective battery packs. As far as I've heard, Lizard has no changes related to cold-range degradation (which is mostly the 50%+ in cold weather range reduction on Leaf v. Tesla's more modest 30% reduction numbers at around 0 F).

AFAIK there is no such thing as cold temp degradation. Any drop in range or usability is temporary so long as you don't let the battery freeze solid.

In other words I think you are misusing the word "degradation" and shouldn't use it so carelessly.

As to usability the leaf has a battery pack heater so long as you don't have the 2011 model minus the cold weather package. And if the built in heater isn't enough for you a heated garage or aftermarket heating are available options (yes there is a thread specifically about adding heaters to the bottom of the Leaf battery pack see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=15673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

 

[lorenfb]

It is amazing to hear that the Soul EV will be available in Texas soon. I stopped by the local Kia dealer (in Phoenix) when I was shopping in January and was told that there were no plans to ship them to Arizona.

Gerry

An appropriate decision on the part of Kia to not subject the Kia TMS to the Arizona temp and possibly
marginalize the perceived/actual effectiveness of using cabin air cooling for TMS.

 

[oilerlord]

Hi,

Resurrecting this thread...just wondering if the OP is still loving his Soul EV. We installed a 9.2 kW solar system a few months ago, and I plan to use an EV as a way to store (and use) excess generated power instead of merely selling it back to the grid. It's all fine and good that people install solar and drive EV's to be environmentally conscious but for me, the financial ROI is more important to me. I understand the case for leasing however I'd rather just buy the thing outright when depreciation allows me to get a low mileage lease returned EV that's been depreciated by 60% - which seems to be consistent with most EV's. After five years of ownership (if I keep it that long), and if the battery needs to be replaced, I'll just pony up the (I'm guessing) $5-7K for a replacement new battery or scour the Internet for used battery packs from salvage / used auto parts yards.

Anyway, I've been considering a lot of EV's lately but I think Kia's offering is an excellent overall package for the money. 2-3 year old Leaf's can be found for $10K or less. I believe the same will be true for the Soul EV...again, I'm counting on it. I haven't ruled out a used Leaf, but I'll have to wait longer for lease returned 30kWh cars to show up on used car lots.

IMHO, the 27kWh vs 21kwh usable capacity difference in the Soul vs Leaf is a VERY big deal and with the limited charging infrastructure available where I live, may be the difference between getting home and wasting hours at a 120v outlet.

 

[Valdemar]

Can't say anything about the Soul, but

We installed a 9.2 kW solar system a few months ago, and I plan to use an EV as a way to store (and use) excess generated power instead of merely selling it back to the grid.

If symmetric net-metering and time-of-use rates are available to you then instead of storing excess power in the EV it is more cost efficient to charge at night when electricity is cheap and export/sell during the day using on-peak pricing. Doing this you can get away with a solar system that generates less than 100% of your usage and have a minimal monthly bill.

After five years of ownership (if I keep it that long), and if the battery needs to be replaced, I'll just pony up the (I'm guessing) $5-7K for a replacement new battery or scour the Internet for used battery packs from salvage / used auto parts yards.

Considering that $5-$7k is how much you'd pay for the Leaf's 24kWh pack installed, and this price is heavily subsidized by Nissan, my hunch that Soul EV 30kWh pack will be significantly more expensive to replace. Sourcing from junk-yard may or may not work, the Soul EV is a fairly rare animal so the availability may be problematic, also you may find that a battery swap is not a direct bolt-on and requires programming of the onboard computer systems. In fact you can't just take a salvage Leaf battery and put it in your car, even a Nissan dealer won't be able to do it. There are ways but they are more involved than just swapping the battery as one piece.

 

[oilerlord]

Can't say anything about the Soul, but

If symmetric net-metering and time-of-use rates are available to you then instead of storing excess power in the EV it is more cost efficient to charge at night when electricity is cheap and export/sell during the day using on-peak pricing. Doing this you can get away with a solar system that generates less than 100% of your usage and have a minimal monthly bill.

Thanks for your reply. A little background: My case is an oddball...I installed the PV without subsidies (I'm from Alberta, Canada, and our government doesn't offer them). That said, a lot of the project was DIY, and I was able to get the cost per watt to CDN $2.17 (approx USD$1.60) by installing used SunPower panels, sourcing all the hardware on my own, and finding contractors that were willing to work with my budget.

Our power rates are cheap, and constant throughout the day & night - about 6.6 cents per kWh however with taxes, fees, etc, that rises to about 10.5 cents. Because we only get credited the base power rate of 6.6 cents when exporting to the grid, but we buy power at a net 10.5 cents, it's in my best interest to use (or store) that excess electricity instead of selling it back to the Power co.

Our province doesn't (yet) offer any subsidies for the purchase of EV's either, so no $7500 tax credit for me. That pretty much leaves me with the option of importing a used EV from the US that's already been subsidized, and heavily depreciated.

Good point about the battery as Kia's Li-Polymer pack may be surprisingly expensive. I haven't been able to get a price on a replacement battery for the Kia because no dealer I've called (so far) has been able to get that information for me. Overall, I do prefer the Soul EV but mostly because of the larger battery. Still, I may still end up with a 30kWh Leaf if a used car comes along that I can't pass up.

 

[powersurge]

I agree that if you are buying an EV, you must get one that has the highest number of vehicles out there. You will own an expensive paperweight if you buy an oddball car... If you are leasing, then it does not matter.

 

[oilerlord]

I agree that if you are buying an EV, you must get one that has the highest number of vehicles out there. You will own an expensive paperweight if you buy an oddball car... If you are leasing, then it does not matter.

I suppose all Kia Soul EV owners are by definition - early adopters, much like the folks that took a leap of faith with the 2011 Leaf. I read some of the OP's comments on the Soul EV board; it looks like he's a little less enamored with the car after 19,000 miles as it appears that his Soul EV isn't immune to battery degradation.

He's stated:

"I get 91-97 range as calculated by miles remaining (GOM) and miles covered. Car has over 19,000 miles. My GOM starting range shows nowadays 91 miles, but it's upper 60s at night. Once winter comes, it's gonna be probably 86 this year. Originally I started with over 100 on GOM. That's long gone."

And

"Chevy Bolt, where are you?"

http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=331

 

[nerys]

This is what i have been saying. The magic number is 300 miles but 300 miles at 0' F at 65mph at night heat on after 5 years and 60,000 miles on the odo.

250miles would do it with a complete low cost supercharger style network in place.

I estimate this means a car with a new range of 350 to 400 miles.

I would suggest they intentiinally software limit the range to around 250 to 300 miles and then in aoftware slowly expand the usable capacity to compensate for losses both permanent (degredation) and temporary (winter etc..) with the idea being that the car still has a 200 mile usable range after 200,000 miles.

Ths will provide enough range and the very much needed consistant reliable experience that people really need to trust the tech.

 

[Valdemar]

I agree that if you are buying an EV, you must get one that has the highest number of vehicles out there. You will own an expensive paperweight if you buy an oddball car... If you are leasing, then it does not matter.

I suppose all Kia Soul EV owners are by definition - early adopters, much like the folks that took a leap of faith with the 2011 Leaf. I read some of the OP's comments on the Soul EV board; it looks like he's a little less enamored with the car after 19,000 miles as it appears that his Soul EV isn't immune to battery degradation.

He's stated:

"I get 91-97 range as calculated by miles remaining (GOM) and miles covered. Car has over 19,000 miles. My GOM starting range shows nowadays 91 miles, but it's upper 60s at night. Once winter comes, it's gonna be probably 86 this year. Originally I started with over 100 on GOM. That's long gone."

And

"Chevy Bolt, where are you?"

http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=331

Lol, that explains why we haven't heard his bragging for some time here.