Had the P3227 reprogram done today: interesting results.

[TomT]

There is nothing to receive, per se. Their Consult III+ connects with Nissan and downloads it. It should be basically automatic... I call foul on that dealer!

I have been calling the local Nissan dealer's service staff at the Nissan of Denville, NJ, for the new update for 2011/2012 Leafs. They told me today that they still haven't received the update from Nissan. He also told me that its the same with all dealers in the area.

 

[EVerlasting]

I will try to find a Leaf friendly Nissan dealer in NJ and go to them if the range allows me. The two closest dealers (Denville Nissan and Hilltop Nissan) are not very Leaf enthusiastic as I experienced before purchasing my Leaf somewhere else. One dealer (Denville Nissan) keeps their available Leafs in an offsite warehouse without any Leafs on display in their showroom, and the other (Hilltop Nissan in East Hanover, NJ) boasts that they have never had a Leaf since six months and they don't plan on carrying them anymore.

 

[TomT]

Unfortunately, there is a not insubstantial number of Nissan dealers who do not like selling the Leaf because they have realized that will not make the profits off of them - both before and after the sale - that they do on conventional ICE cars...

The two closest dealers (Denville Nissan and Hilltop Nissan) are not very Leaf enthusiastic as I experienced before purchasing my Leaf somewhere else. One dealer (Denville Nissan) keeps their available Leafs in an offsite warehouse without any Leafs on display in their showroom, and the other (Hilltop Nissan in East Hanover, NJ) boasts that they have never had a Leaf since six months and they don't plan on carrying them anymore.

 

[TickTock]

Almost sounds as if Nissan has just put out something to keep battery-capacity-obsessed LEAFers occupied...

:lol:

But seriously, why should you expect that a software upgrade could significantly improve the displays, either on your dash or from the various aftermarket sources, when the problem (apparently) is the fundamental inaccuracy in LEAF instrumentation that caused the 2011-12 LEAF "gauge error" in the first place?

Is what has been posted many times on this subject, by Phil and many others, for years now, in dispute?

Not at all. It is entirely possible to improve accuracy of instrumentation with s/w updates. Extra calibration algorithms can be implemented. Temperature and voltage coefficients added/updated, etc. I'm not saying it was improved, but it is certainly possible given we don't know what information Nissan has to work with.

I have gotten confirmation that yes, the main benefit of the sw update was a tightening of the temperature compensation. The original sw was set to be accurate at 25C but subject to increasing error as you deviate from this. In the new software, a lookup table was updated(added? - not clear on this point) with more accurate coefficients at the higher temperatures to improve the accuracy of the reading in climates like Phoenix.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I have gotten confirmation that yes, the main benefit of the sw update was a tightening of the temperature compensation. The original sw was set to be accurate at 25C but subject to increasing error as you deviate from this. In the new software, a lookup table was updated(added? - not clear on this point) with more accurate coefficients at the higher temperatures to improve the accuracy of the reading in climates like Phoenix.

I guess the question is how much "more accurate" the results from this update of temperature correction are, if there are in fact multiple opportunities for error in the voltage readings, not just those due to temperature variations, in the unadjusted or misadjusted data.

...Is what has been posted many times on this subject, by Phil and many others, for years now, in dispute?

Ingineer Post subject: Re: LEAF voltage measurement accuracy impact on capacity

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:23 am

The biggest problem with the Leaf's BMS (in my opinion) is the use of the Hall-effect current sensor. These are not very accurate for coulomb counting and subject to accuracy degrading effects, such as centerline drift, effects of the earths magnetic field, temperature, etc. The inaccuracy of this is why "some gids are more equal than others". Nissan compensates for this inaccuracy by applying corrections to the SoC by sampling voltage and using it formulas that also take into account the temperature, internal resistance, aging, etc. This is why you can gain/lose SoC suddenly sometimes after power cycling. It will apply changes all at once if the car is power cycled, but if in use, it will apply a correction in the form of a drift which appears as faster/slower SoC counting than real energy out/in.

I was able to meet with the Nissan engineers from Japan last December, including the battery system engineer (I had a one-on-one with him). Their explanation for why we have no direct SoC display in the car was basically that they were afraid to show it and have these corrections occasionally make it "jump" which would "confuse the customer". The Battery Systems Engineer told me that cost was the reason they used the Hall-Effect current counter rather than a more-accurate galvanic shunt.

It's looking like there is some degradation in these hot-climate packs, but it appears that the BMS (LBC) is not dealing with it properly, and not only indicating incorrect loss figures, but also possibly not allowing for full use (charging) of the packs real capacity.

Keep in mind, Nissan did a lot of testing, but the bulk of it is accelerated life tests, which attempt to simulate a much longer real-world use scenario. Unfortunately sometimes there is no substitute for real-world life testing, and it sounds like there are some unexpected results that the BMS software is not equipped to deal with...


http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9981&p=228473" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry, but reading the posts on this thread, I can't say I've seen the evidence of a significant improvement in accuracy.

Of course, IMO, this could only be shown by examining both pre-update and post-update results against independent reports of energy use, such as a recharge capacity or accurate range test, which (oddly) few seem willing to undertake.

What do you believe your own pre and post update charge records show about accuracy?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dHNwVmRkNkFnaEVOQTVENW5mOTZlb0E&pli=1#gid=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveEV]

I have gotten confirmation that yes, the main benefit of the sw update was a tightening of the temperature compensation. The original sw was set to be accurate at 25C but subject to increasing error as you deviate from this. In the new software, a lookup table was updated(added? - not clear on this point) with more accurate coefficients at the higher temperatures to improve the accuracy of the reading in climates like Phoenix.

Makes sense - most people reporting back live in climates around 25C and report no significant change in GID/Ah readings once it's settled back down - the one report I've seen from a cooler climate (DaveinOlyWa) has seen his GID counts drop rapidly after the update.

Need more data, but perhaps the update will cause GID readings to stabilize relative to temperature now vs the seasonal effect temperature has on GID / Ah readings that you documented long, long ago.

 

[TickTock]

What do you believe your own pre and post update charge records show about accuracy?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dHNwVmRkNkFnaEVOQTVENW5mOTZlb0E&pli=1#gid=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I been waiting for more data to make a call, but since that is months away I will go ahead and make some wild extrapolations based on the 2 weeks of data I have so far .
If you click on the graphs tab in the link you provided, you can see the graph below. but I will include a jpg, too. I have seen my gids (blue dots) increase since the update on 7/10, but no apparent increase in capacity as measured from the wall (green dots). Furthermore, if you squint and look at it sideways after having a couple of shots, you may conclude that the variation in the wall power *has* gotten more stable/consistent since 7/10. Time will tell... Be interesting if the large gid temperature variation I show also reduces.

 

[phxsmiley]

Had the update earlier this week, and my 4BL Leaf saw noticeable improvement in range. From what I read, this could be temporary. But if it is, I'm enjoying it while it lasts (and until I get my new battery pack).

7/22/13 100% Charge -> 179 GIDs (Morning before update)
7/23/13 100% Charge -> 214 GIDs (Morning after update)
7/24/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs
7/25/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs

This brought me back to range and levels that I saw in March of this year. So, it appears that definitely part of my range loss was due to the software inaccuracies.

However, I am still 4B low, although my range is back to where I was at 2BL.

 

[mwalsh]

Had the update earlier this week, and my 4BL Leaf saw noticeable improvement in range. From what I read, this could be temporary. But if it is, I'm enjoying it while it lasts (and until I get my new battery pack).

7/22/13 100% Charge -> 179 GIDs (Morning before update)
7/23/13 100% Charge -> 214 GIDs (Morning after update)
7/24/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs
7/25/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs

This brought me back to range and levels that I saw in March of this year. So, it appears that definitely part of my range loss was due to the software inaccuracies.

However, I am still 4B low, although my range is back to where I was at 2BL.

But...but...but...that's where I am with ONE bar loss!

 

[TickTock]

Had the update earlier this week, and my 4BL Leaf saw noticeable improvement in range. From what I read, this could be temporary. But if it is, I'm enjoying it while it lasts (and until I get my new battery pack).

7/22/13 100% Charge -> 179 GIDs (Morning before update)
7/23/13 100% Charge -> 214 GIDs (Morning after update)
7/24/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs
7/25/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs

This brought me back to range and levels that I saw in March of this year. So, it appears that definitely part of my range loss was due to the software inaccuracies.

However, I am still 4B low, although my range is back to where I was at 2BL.

Just to be sure, you do mean *range* increased (and not just 100% charge gids).
(I only ask since your published data only shows gids)
Also, if you do mean range, how do you determine it? Do you use the guess-o-meter and now see more remaining miles at the end of the day? Do you see 35 more gids at the end of the day, too?

 

[jhm614]

However, I am still 4BL, although my range is back to where I was at 2BL.

Did your dealer mention (or did you request) the 4BL battery repair / replacement?

 

[phxsmiley]

Had the update earlier this week, and my 4BL Leaf saw noticeable improvement in range. From what I read, this could be temporary. But if it is, I'm enjoying it while it lasts (and until I get my new battery pack).

7/22/13 100% Charge -> 179 GIDs (Morning before update)
7/23/13 100% Charge -> 214 GIDs (Morning after update)
7/24/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs
7/25/13 100% Charge -> 213 GIDs

This brought me back to range and levels that I saw in March of this year. So, it appears that definitely part of my range loss was due to the software inaccuracies.

However, I am still 4B low, although my range is back to where I was at 2BL.

It is really hard to tell, as my car usage varies day-to-day, but definitely a small amount of range improvement, but not back to what I would be if I 'really' had 213 GIDs.

I have a log where I will track my number of miles on a 100% charge (irrespective of GOM) with actual miles traveled, but that is under a variety of conditions:

4/23/13: I went 50 miles on an 80% charge, 80% GID Reading = 177; Previous 100% GID was 211.
7/8/13: I went 61 miles (30% highway) on a 100% charge all the way down to 22GIDs, 100% GID Reading =179
7/23/13: I went 59 miles (70% highway) on a 100% charge all the way down to 30 GIDS, 100% GID Reading=213

On 7/23, I definitely went more highway miles with the car, and I should have been lower, based on how the car was acting earlier that week. That's the best I can figure.

Summary: I'm sure my GID count will go down some. I definitely have a little more range than I did before, but it's not in line with a 100% GID read of 213. And yes, I put my request in for a new pack, dealer is requesting from Nissan.

 

[kolmstead]

I'm with Mike! My last 100% charge on my 2-bar loser was 211 Gids. How can a 4BL be charging higher?

-Karl

 

[phxsmiley]

I fully expect my GID count to keep dropping, it just hasn't done that yet. And my range is definitely lower than when I was at 213 GIDs the last time.

 

[LEAFer]

I fully expect my GID count to keep dropping, it just hasn't done that yet. And my range is definitely lower than when I was at 213 GIDs the last time.

It took our LEAF 37 days and 932 miles to "drop off" ("lose") the extra GIDs it reported after the P3227 re-program.

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10653&start=37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[vrwl]

Here's the latest data for mine:

7-2-2013 Before update:
Odometer: 6931 miles
Amp Hours: 56.32
CAP: 85.01%
(Didn't have GIDS or Health on my Battery App at that time)

7-2-2103 After update:
Odometer: 6931 miles
Amp Hours: 60.27
CAP: 90.97%
(Didn't have GIDS or Health on my Battery App at that time)

7-22-2013
Odometer: 7185 miles
GIDs: 244 (86.8% GID) at 100% charge
AHr: 58.78
CAP: 88.71
Health: 78.31

Today, 8-2-2013, exactly 1 month later:
Odometer: 7327
Amp Hours: 58.14
CAP: 87.75%
Health: 76.74

 

[Scribbious]

[

The Simvalley Mini ELM327 Bluetooth OBD2 Auto Diagnostics I bought comes with an on/off button. Some days I leave it on, others I turn it off when exiting the car. Mine was only $22.49. I will turn if off if I am not going to drive/charge the car for a couple of days. I found that it does not get too hot either.

I got one of these a couple of days ago. For the life of me, I can't get it to turn off by pushing the button. Have you found any secret? Seems to be hit/miss on my HTC EVO LTE regarding keeping a connection or 'waiting'.

Heading in Tuesday to get my update.

 

[TomT]

The interesting thing is that the on/off button actually only turns off the BT transmitter. The rest of the unit remains powered...

The Simvalley Mini ELM327 Bluetooth OBD2 Auto Diagnostics I bought comes with an on/off button. Some days I leave it on, others I turn it off when exiting the car. Mine was only $22.49. I will turn if off if I am not going to drive/charge the car for a couple of days. I found that it does not get too hot either.

I got one of these a couple of days ago. For the life of me, I can't get it to turn off by pushing the button. Have you found any secret? Seems to be hit/miss on my HTC EVO LTE regarding keeping a connection or 'waiting'.

 

[tbleakne]

I called my dealer today and scheduled the 3227 firmware update. They told me they needed 4 hours to perform this update. This seems a little excessive. An early post on this thread reported 2 hours. What times have others experienced?

I do not believe this software can give me more real range, because that is determined strictly by maximum and minimum battery voltages, not software, but I am hoping the temporary boost in Gids will delay the dropping of my first capacity bar. Two days ago "80%" charge stopped at 9 instead of 10 range bars, so I know the drop is soon without the boost.

If the firmware boost can carry me into the cooler Nov weather, I might be able to delay the bar drop for several months. Still having 12 capacity bars at 23K miles might enhance my Leaf's resale value.

 

[TomT]

90 minutes from the time I drove in until I drove out in my case...

I called my dealer today and scheduled the 3227 firmware update. They told me they needed 4 hours to perform this update. This seems a little excessive. An early post on this thread reported 2 hours. What times have others experienced?