Honest Answers for Low Income Hopeful EV Buyer

[VforEVs]

Hello there! I live in Los Angeles and would definitely be classified as a person at the low income level. I do not own a car but have been looking into purchasing a 2013 Nissan Leaf. A 2013 because my research leads me to believe my chances of buying one with low mileage and decent battery level are relatively good, especially if it has a rapid charger that would keep me on the road longer. I need a car for my work in social services--a car (as opposed to riding the bus as I've been doing) means I can work more hours at better pay. I've been reading so much about the Nissan Leaf and just got approved for a $12,000 auto loan.

Since I'm not trading in a vehicle, I don't qualify for the great rebate available to low income EV buyers. Buying a used car and my current income puts me out of qualifying for any other rebates. I don't want to add to the gas guzzlers out there, but am I being impractical in thinking it's still better to buy electric as opposed to a lower priced gas-powered vehicle? A used Prius may be in my price range, but I'd still have to pay money to maintain it. My greatest fear is getting a used Leaf with battery issues, especially since it would be my only car. I'd still have my disabled bus pass, but I can't afford to make mistakes with such a huge purchase. Any advice you'd like to share with someone like me who is energy conscious but needs to be super practical because of lack of savings for major car repair bills? Any advice is welcome. ALSO, I saw on another forum that a bluetooth dongle (?) and Leaf Spy is a good investment when car shopping. I really need honest practical advice. Thank you so much for any help! --V.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Welcome, VforEVs. If you use the search function, you'll find many of your questions already have answers. Perhaps someone in LA with LEAF Spy will help you shop.

The first thing you need to know is, how many miles a day will you drive? Then, where will you charge? I assume you've found PlugShare, but can you charge at home?

 

[GRA]

Hello there! I live in Los Angeles and would definitely be classified as a person at the low income level. I do not own a car but have been looking into purchasing a 2013 Nissan Leaf. A 2013 because my research leads me to believe my chances of buying one with low mileage and decent battery level are relatively good, especially if it has a rapid charger that would keep me on the road longer. I need a car for my work in social services--a car (as opposed to riding the bus as I've been doing) means I can work more hours at better pay. I've been reading so much about the Nissan Leaf and just got approved for a $12,000 auto loan.

Since I'm not trading in a vehicle, I don't qualify for the great rebate available to low income EV buyers. Buying a used car and my current income puts me out of qualifying for any other rebates. I don't want to add to the gas guzzlers out there, but am I being impractical in thinking it's still better to buy electric as opposed to a lower priced gas-powered vehicle? A used Prius may be in my price range, but I'd still have to pay money to maintain it. My greatest fear is getting a used Leaf with battery issues, especially since it would be my only car. I'd still have my disabled bus pass, but I can't afford to make mistakes with such a huge purchase. Any advice you'd like to share with someone like me who is energy conscious but needs to be super practical because of lack of savings for major car repair bills? Any advice is welcome. ALSO, I saw on another forum that a bluetooth dongle (?) and Leaf Spy is a good investment when car shopping. I really need honest practical advice. Thank you so much for any help! --V.

As mentioned by DNAinaGoodWay, without more information on how far you need to drive on any given day and what your maximum distance is likely to be, it's hard to make any hard recommendations. But, if this is going to be your sole car, I'd lean towards a used Prius unless you're sure that your maximum daily mileage will never exceed that of a LEAF, or you want/must have a white HOV sticker. Unlike ICEs, current affordable BEVs, especially used ones with range degraded from new, are ill-suited as sole cars for most people. Maybe you're one of the exceptions.

 

[VforEVs]

@DNAinaGoodWay, thanks for answering. I did a search on "low income" and didn't find anything. On some other EV internet forums, I saw that people tended to get into philosophical discussions as to whether low income car buyers are benefiting unfairly from the new CA rebate compared to people with high incomes who also want to save as much money as possible (but can't thanks to the end of rebates for high income folks). Those discussions don't speak to my environmental concerns which may be getting in the way of real world day to day concerns. I'll be driving anywhere from 25 to 60 miles per day. I'd charge at home overnight and have enough $ saved to invest in a Level 2 charger installed by an electrician. Along my usual routes seeing clients between downtown and Long Beach there are Level 2 chargers along the way but very few DC rapid chargers. The guess-o-meter and potential battery degradation is a real concern. Thanks again!

 

[speedski97]

contact me I can help if you want

 

[kubel]

I was in a similar situation when I was looking for a LEAF in 2012. I'm willing to bet my income was (and still is) lower than any other non-retired LEAF owner here. My tax obligations were nowhere near $7500, so buying new was out of the question. Buying used wasn't an option either because EVs were still new in 2012. The only way I could afford the car was to lease and have NMAC take the tax credit and pass it on to me in the form of lease cash.

My suggestion would be to hold off until the 2016 model year starts hitting the dealer lots (should be happening very soon). I expect used prices will drop even more not long after.

 

[VforEVs]

@GRA, @speedski97, @kubel
Thanks for your responses! I may very well take you up on your offer, speedski97. I'm waiting for my bluetooth dongle from amazon and plan to get leafspy lite. My plan was to test drive new Leafs to get a feel for how a new one drives. Then I'd start looking at the 2013 SVs and SLs which are within my budget. However, I hear you folks when you advise holding off and buying a used Prius and/or waiting till the prices drop in the used EV market. Since I don't qualify for any rebates (unless I buy a clunker and offload it for a HUGE discount on a used EV), maybe it's better to wait a few months. Would my credit union will let me wait that long despite having already approved my loan?

For the most part, are the people on this forum owners of more than one car so that you don't have to worry about having your Leafs out of commission? From posts that I've read here and elsewhere, it seems people are driving older Leafs with minimal problems by watching how they treat their vehicles. Knowing what you know about your cars, what kind of counsel would you give a friend who wants to build a better world and dreads the thought of contributing to its destruction by buying a gasoline powered car? Granted, it's just one car out of millions, but where does one draw the line? Because of my economic circumstances, does that give me a pass to turn my head and say I can't afford to be environmentally responsible? I'm really at a loss here...BTW, I consider myself a Buddhist, but my sister's always giving me a hard time because I have no qualms about killing ants. LOL!

 

[cwerdna]

UGH! The slowness of this site almost got me to the point where I wasn't going to wait around to reply (and find my previous post).

@GRA, @speedski97, @kubel
Thanks for your responses! I may very well take you up on your offer, speedski97. I'm waiting for my bluetooth dongle from amazon and plan to get leafspy lite. My plan was to test drive new Leafs to get a feel for how a new one drives. Then I'd start looking at the 2013 SVs and SLs which are within my budget. However, I hear you folks when you advise holding off and buying a used Prius and/or waiting till the prices drop in the used EV market

The prices in the used market are already pretty low. See my example at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=429492#p429492. Check Craigslist in LA and sort by price on '13s. If you're trying to save money, skip the SL and go for the SV or S (if that's suitable). It seems not getting the CHAdeMO inlet (part of the "charge package" on the S and quick charge + LED package on the SV) will save you some $, but you won't be able to use any DC fast chargers nor add the port later.

You mentioned 60 miles... if you keep the car for awhile, eventually, the battery will degrade to a point where 60 miles isn't doable at highway speeds but only at slower speeds.

I would tend to lean towards getting a used Prius, in your case. Unfortunately (for the buyer), Prius resale value tends to be pretty good, unlike the Leaf. Having an EV w/the range of a Leaf as your only car isn't a good idea, IMHO, unless you have semi-easy access to a gasoline/diesel fueled vehicle or can make it up w/an occasional rental, when you need it.

 

[epirali]

You have gotten a lot of good replies, I'll just add this: IF you decide to get a Leaf (and honestly I would say it may not be great in the LA area as your only car) then you have to worry about the battery management having been reset by seller. There have been reports where this was done by dealers, where the battery looks like it is in great shape, but then rapidly "diminishes" in capacity. The truth is a reset forces the battery management to "relearn" the battery and makes the battery look much healthier than it is for the first month or two. And then its too late.

You could also look at something like a used Ford C-Max Energi. We almost got one, but couldn't handle the Ford dealer. The idea is you may get 15-20 miles all electric before it becomes a traditional hybrid. I am guessing they can be had for same price as a used Leaf, and for longer trips you can still have good range and economy. And for shorter trips or when you can charge you can minimize your gas use.

 

[fooljoe]

Since I'm not trading in a vehicle, I don't qualify for the great rebate available to low income EV buyers.

With a rebate up to $9500 on the table, I'd seriously consider buying a cheap used gas-guzzler then trading it in if you would otherwise qualify for the program.

Having an EV w/the range of a Leaf as your only car isn't a good idea, IMHO, unless you have semi-easy access to a gasoline/diesel fueled vehicle or can make it up w/an occasional rental, when you need it.

I disagree - OP's already making do with NO car, so missing the long range capability of a gasser or hybrid is not the issue that it could be for someone inured to the ICE lifestyle. This is a great situation for going full EV.

I think a Leaf could be a great car for you, V, assuming your home is or can be well set-up for charging. You mentioned you could have an electrician install a charging station, so we might infer that you own a home and have a garage or driveway suitable for charging. By the way, there's lots of good advice in here for minimizing the cost to get L2 charging. If your home already has an electric dryer outlet, for example, you could be well on your way. And you could probably get a great deal on a used EVSE through the forum, or perhaps with the Leaf you find. And look into the options available from your utility for EV charging rates.

As far as that, finding the right used Leaf to buy can be quite a challenge but will make all the difference as to whether this is a good deal for you or not. All I can say about that is the battery is everything. Value the age of the battery more than the miles driven. You absolutely must check the car you're considering with LeafSpy. And dealerships are not to be trusted - check craigslist and/or for sale posts in here. Be mindful of the capacity warranty. While you obviously want the most capacity you can get for the money, it is possible that you could score an older Leaf that just had its battery replaced or might be about to. Check out this one, for example. With 9 bars and 50k miles, it appears to be on the verge of qualifying for the capacity warranty. If you're willing to take a chance, and could "suffer" only 50 miles of range or so for a couple months, you might luck into a free new battery - effectively as good as getting a new car for only $9k. Of course you'd need to check just how close to replacement that car is with LeafSpy, and check the VIN with Nissan to ensure the capacity warranty hasn't been voided for any reason. Also find out for sure when the original sale date was, as the 5 year period could be coming up soon. Anyway, finding the right used Leaf could be an adventure, but I think it would be a good fit for you. Good luck!

 

[stevon]

I know this is a Nissan club but my Spark EV with free charging at work or other free charge site will pay for itself in 5.95 years. Check with a CPA or tax Lawyer for free (first consultation is usually free) but you can forward left over tax deduction or losses over a few years. The Federal $7500 tax deduction is only for brand new 1st owner vehicles was what I was told. In considering buying an electric vehicle in California watch out for home user's "tiered rates before you buy and plan to charge on the grid at home. SDG&E in San Diego has a baseline rate which charging an electric car will quickly push your baseline rate to tier 3 or $0.37 per kwh ouch! Good luck with your purchase, thanks to the Leaf community experience and pitfalls have been paid by others, Thanks for sharing guys, has been a great help for me with sound advice given also the occasional screwball comments for entertainment thrown in!

 

[DesertSprings]

I don't think this has been mentioned in this thread yet, but California has some incentives for the purchase of a used EV. My Internet is really slow at the moment, so I'm not sure this is the best link, but it is a good place to start:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20018

 

[cwerdna]

but you can forward left over tax deduction or losses over a few years. The Federal $7500 tax deduction

I’m not sure what you’re talking about when you refer to the above.

It’s NOT a $7500 deduction but rather a CREDIT. And, AFAIK, it CANNOT be carried over to next years. See http://insideevs.com/top-15-faqs-income-tax-credit-plug-vehicles/. From page 4 of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8936.pdf

“Line 23
If you cannot use part of the personal portion of the credit
because of the tax liability limit, the unused credit is lost.
The unused personal portion of the credit cannot be
carried back or forward to other tax years.”

And, yes, it wouldn’t be available to anyone who buys used.

 

[ElectricEddy]

Environmental concerns were and still are a major reason for myself changing to electric. After a short time you will accustom to the effort it takes to plan your trips due to infrastructure availability ( or un-availability) , and will find the rewards make it worthwhile. You will learn to hate the smell of gas and shake your head every time you walk by every vacant parking stall that seem to incorporate an "oil spill pothole" in the front/middle of the spot. 25 miles is easy, 60 miles with some degradation in the battery can be a challenge sometimes depending on factors. If the opportunity to charge (publicly) is there close to your destinations , there should be no problem particularly if using Leaf Spy.

 

[LeftieBiker]

To answer an earlier question, I believe that the great majority of people who drive a Leaf post here have access to a second vehicle if needed. I do, although I rarely borrow or drive the Prius, but I'm also retired and don't like to drive long distances anymore. I suggest you think about how often you will need to drive 60 miles (or more), and how much advance warning you will have. If those occasions are rare, you might want to look into something like a Zipcar membership as a contingency. If you will regularly need to drive 60 miles or more for the foreseeable future, then I suggest you either buy a used Prius, Yaris, etc, or wait for the 125 mile Leaf to come out this Fall, and then try to get a great lease deal on a 2015 S or "stripped" SV. You might need a co-signer in that case, though...

 

[speedski97]

I answer to can a ev work as a only car? In Los Angles it is no problem. My 11 SL with a 15 KWH battery has been to San Diego, Palm springs , Fresno, and Santa Barbra. I have driven 450 miles in one day, and put over 20K on the leaf in one year. In the La area it is easy to make a leaf a only car with a plan . There are a lot of L3 chargers are going in fast. We are seeing more EVs on the road. We need a few routes open. With the money you save on gas and service. renting a suburban for a trip is cheap, if not up to the challenge .
the important question is, can you charge at home? even on 110 it makes a big difference, then can you charge at work? Is there a L3 charger on the way to work for the day you need to do something after work? In La the answer Is most likely yes. IMO

 

[LKK]

You might also consider a Volt. With the second gen Volt coming out soon and a glut of unsold Volts sitting on dealer lots the price of a used Volt will fall even more than its already low resale value and be right in your price range.

The Volt doesn't have the environmental credentials of a battery EV. It is an EV, but with a small battery supplemented by an on board gas generator. The gas part is what turns a lot of folks off. But it's all electric range of about 40 miles is sufficient for the most of your driving. Beyond that, the generator kicks in and consumes gas at the rate of about 38 MPG.

Unless you're carrying a lot of stuff or people, the Volt can handle all your trips, long or short. So it can satisfy your need for one car.

Volt reliability has been good. Battery degeneration has not been an issue, it may be present but the design of the Volt hides it from the owner. Even if the battery does degrade, the gas generator is there to back you up.

The small battery can be charged up overnight from an ordinary 120 volt outlet. So that saves you the cost of having an L2 charger installed. That money could be used towards a solar system to generate your own clean electricity. By the way the Volt only takes about 12 KWH to charge so the solar system doesn't have to be very big.

Good luck!

 

[fooljoe]

The Volt's certainly a fine car, but perhaps not right for OP. One of OP's originally stated desires was to avoid maintenance as much as possible, and since the Volt still carries an ICE, it's still stuck with the ICE maintenance cycle. And with all its added complexity there's a lot more that can go wrong.

Also used Volts are nowhere near as cheap as used Leafs - which I guess is a plus if you're considering a new Volt, but not so much if you're a buyer in the used EV market.

The point about charging on 120V is misleading. If you can get by with charging a Volt on 120V then you can also get by with charging a Leaf on 120V. But if you drive enough that charging on 120V won't cut it, then you're also driving enough where the Volt's EV range won't cut it, but the Leaf's would. Plus charging on 120V is much less efficient - the added electricity consumption and potential of having to charge outside of the cheapest rate window could quickly erase the money saved by skipping L2 installation (of course there's a big YMMV here.) Further, if you charge on 120V regularly you really should use a dedicated circuit, and if you have to pay to install one then you might as well be installing a 240V circuit. If you already do have a dedicated 120V circuit, it could easily be converted to 240V.

 

[VforEVs]

Thanks a lot for all the input. It really has been very helpful. I test drove a 2013 Leaf last night and loved it so much. It was advertised as an SV with quick charge port but it actually was an S. The drive was really smooth but I need the quick charge if I'm going to buy a Leaf. Nobody I know is encouraging me to buy a Leaf. Everyone says to get a used Prius but I hesitate because pretty much everything in my budget has high mileage and costs more than I hope to spend. I'm on my way to test drive a Prius C (and perhaps another Leaf) and hope that all goes well. I do love the way the Leaf drives and how it feels to be in the car. It's much roomier than what I imagined and even comfier than I imagined. I'm still hopeful that I'll find a car that's perfect for me be it a Leaf or a Prius C. Thanks again. Will give more input after I end my test drives today. People I know think the prospect of my owning a Leaf is just not practical enough. My mom thinks I should buy a brand new Nissan Versa sedan--after we met with a sales guy at Nissan who promised a super great deal on a new car or 2015 certified pre-owned Versa. Car shopping is a hassle...it truly is. Without the OBD2 bluetooth adapter arriving till next week, I can't use LeafSpy. I have time to shop, but had a really bad day getting to a client and feel really antsy about not having a car. Thanks for the comments! I'm on my way...

 

[LeftieBiker]

You don't want a Prius C. It combines the slow acceleration of a Versa with the complete lack of EV Mode of the, er, Versa. A used gen III Prius is a better buy.