How Many Leaf Owners Charge Solely on 120V?

[TinMachine]

I just leased my Silver 2012 SL about 3 weeks ago. So I am using the included 120v charger. I use the Leaf mainly as a commuter car, with a 40 mile round trip each day so this works out form me. However I try to use the car for as much as I can, errands etc. So I am planning to purchase a L2 EVSE for my home. I considered the upgrade that so many have recommended, but I am not thrilled with the idea of a 240 outlet in my garage, having the ESVE cable under my garage door.

My real question is what recommendations for L2 would you all suggest. My house was built in 2000 with 200 amp service. My garage is small (converted 3/4 of it to a den for the kids a few years ago) so I would most likely need to locate the EVSE outside on the side of my house next to the garage. The electric panel is right there as well as the meter on the outside. So no long 240v runs to pull, probably just right though the wall to the panel.

Is there a way to secure the plug if located outside your home so when I go on vacation or something I know it's secure? Or would you recommend just flipping the breaker to the EVSE when I am away for extended periods?
Sorry for all the questions by I am a bit of a newbie with EVs and EVSE, etc.

 

[planet4ever]

What kind of security are you worrying about? I have a 120v outlet in my front yard, and I've never worried about it, even though I guess in theory neighbor kids could poke wires into it and electrocute themselves. I don't consider 240v any more dangerous than 120v. Lethal is lethal. If you are worried about people stealing electricity, not many people would have a 240v plug for that purpose.

I park in my driveway all the time, and use an EVSEupgrade. My L6-20 outlet is outside, but behind a 6 foot gate. I have built a wooden cage around it to protect it from the elements. I am more worried about someone stealing the EVSE than anything else, but I use deck screws to at least make it look like it is permanently attached to the house. (I can take them out in a couple of minutes if I want to take the EVSE with me.)

Ray

 

[Herm]

The big reason for an EVSE is safety, you cant electrocute yourself by poking pins into the socket, getting rained on, cutting the cable etc. Its safe.

 

[TinMachine]

What kind of security are you worrying about? I have a 120v outlet in my front yard, and I've never worried about it, even though I guess in theory neighbor kids could poke wires into it and electrocute themselves. I don't consider 240v any more dangerous than 120v. Lethal is lethal. If you are worried about people stealing electricity, not many people would have a 240v plug for that purpose.

I park in my driveway all the time, and use an EVSEupgrade. My L6-20 outlet is outside, but behind a 6 foot gate. I have built a wooden cage around it to protect it from the elements. I am more worried about someone stealing the EVSE than anything else, but I use deck screws to at least make it look like it is permanently attached to the house. (I can take them out in a couple of minutes if I want to take the EVSE with me.)

Ray

I am not concered so much about someone 'stealing' electricity. I have 2 young children and there are over a dozen others in my neighborhood that play at my house sometimes. If my L2 EVSE was outside I'd be a bit concerned that they might be tempted to 'play with it'. It's really more for my wife's peace of mind as she is a bit paranoid about electricity as her grandfather was an electrician and grew up hearing all the horror stories and how she should unplug every electrical apliance before going on vacation, to bed or whatever. So I have convinced her that we can leave the Kurig and the TV/VCR/DVD plugged in all the time, but when I dicussed the L2 placement she was concerend about the kids potentially getting hurt. I told her the only way they could get hurt is if they swung the plug around and hit themselves or someone else. So that was the basis of why I was looking to see if I could secure the plug end. I know that the cable and plug are not charged if not connected to a EV charger port and the EVSE detects the EV. Just want to let my wife sleep at night.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the EVSE is much safer than a normal electrical source. it has a pin that has to sense a connection to the pack before the plug is energized.

 

[davewill]

I am not concered so much about someone 'stealing' electricity. I have 2 young children and there are over a dozen others in my neighborhood that play at my house sometimes. If my L2 EVSE was outside I'd be a bit concerned that they might be tempted to 'play with it'. It's really more for my wife's peace of mind as she is a bit paranoid about electricity as her grandfather was an electrician and grew up hearing all the horror stories and how she should unplug every electrical apliance before going on vacation, to bed or whatever. ... Just want to let my wife sleep at night.

Are we talking toddlers? Might be simplest just to mount the EVSE high enough that a sub-8 y.o couldn't reach it.

 

[HuntLEAF]

I have had the LEAF for just a month and put 1074 miles on it. I use the L1 charger and have changed my mind about needing an L2. My commute is 14 miles one way and I sometimes go home for lunch. I live in southern CA so I use the air conditioning most days and still have no worries about being able to make it and have only dipped below 20 miles remaining one time. I typically charge to 80% unless I have some heavy driving to do the next day. Since energy rates are better after midnight, I start charging around 9pm so the majority of my charge time is at the lowest available charge rate.

 

[KJD]

I have had the LEAF for just a month and put 1074 miles on it. I use the L1 charger and have changed my mind about needing an L2. My commute is 14 miles one way and I sometimes go home for lunch. I live in southern CA so I use the air conditioning most days and still have no worries about being able to make it and have only dipped below 20 miles remaining one time. I typically charge to 80% unless I have some heavy driving to do the next day. Since energy rates are better after midnight, I start charging around 9pm so the majority of my charge time is at the lowest available charge rate.

A couple of things for you to think about. It appears that high temps will shorten the life of your battery pack by a considerable amount. If you had a L2 charger you could give your battery more time to cool down at night before you start charging.

Charging adds heat to the battery. L1 takes MORE than twice as long to charge as L2.

By using L1 you are wasting electricity. More juice is wasted running the cooling fans and pump for a longer time. L2 actually uses LESS electricity from the meter.

You already said that charging rates are better after midnight, so with L2 ALL of your charging time would be at the lowest rate possible.

Last thing is the EVSE upgrade will only cost you about 300 bucks, so cost is small.
http://www.evseupgrade.com/styled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you shorten the life of a 12,000 dollar battery pack are you really saving any money with L1 ?

 

[planet4ever]

Most of your points are true, BUT:

Charging adds heat to the battery. L1 takes MORE than twice as long to charge as L2.

While each of these statements is true standing alone, the implied conclusion when combining them is FALSE. Charging at L2 adds very little heat to the battery. Charging at L1 adds even less per kWh. The fact that charging takes longer at L1 doesn't mean that you add more kWh to the battery; you don't. To the very slight extent that adding heat to the battery is a problem, charging at L1 will add even less heat than charging at L2.

If you shorten the life of a 12,000 dollar battery pack are you really saving any money with L1 ?

The only justification I see for your "if" is the false syllogism discussed above. I have not seen any shred of evidence that L1 charging shortens the life of a battery compared to L2 charging, nor any rational explanation as to why it should.

Ray

 

[KJD]

Do you agree that heating the battery is bad and that keeping the battery cooler will prolong battery life ?

Most of your points are true, BUT:

Charging adds heat to the battery. L1 takes MORE than twice as long to charge as L2.

While each of these statements is true standing alone, the implied conclusion when combining them is FALSE. Charging at L2 adds very little heat to the battery. Charging at L1 adds even less per kWh. The fact that charging takes longer at L1 doesn't mean that you add more kWh to the battery; you don't. To the very slight extent that adding heat to the battery is a problem, charging at L1 will add even less heat than charging at L2.

If you shorten the life of a 12,000 dollar battery pack are you really saving any money with L1 ?

The only justification I see for your "if" is the false syllogism discussed above. I have not seen any shred of evidence that L1 charging shortens the life of a battery compared to L2 charging, nor any rational explanation as to why it should.

Ray

 

[Caracalover]

No real data to back this up but from my experience I think that L2 is actually worse for the battery than L1, but niether is really bad. I go by the old trickle charge versus the fast charge for motrocycle batteries as a reference point, less heat would seem like it would hurt less. Trade off is you lose efficiency.

For the first year I owned my Leaf I charged on L1 except on Sunday. I have an upgraded EVSE and love the flexiblity it provides - I can charge at remote locations at the L2 rate, which is when I need it, and those locations don't need to install anything at all, I just need to have the right adapter, which is pretty easy to make. This is great unless you forget the EVSE at home, which I did once. I put about 17000 miles on mine in the first year.

I moved to a house that had a 240 outlet for the dryer next to the garage, and so for the last few months I used that, with the cord running through the door to the car. Not a big deal, but unplugging the dryer was kind of a pain. I now have a Schnieder installed in the garage and it seems to work fine, which is nice. It was around $700 plus installation. I hear the GE WAttstation has issues with the Leaf, be sure they are resolved before buying one of those.

L1 issues arise when you are out late on Friday and want to go for a long drive on Saturday morning. With L2 if you get 4 or 5 hours of sleep, you will likely have a full charge in the morning. I don't worry about the battery at all, so I don't use the L1 at all anymore, prefering the electric generation my solar panels create to cover my energy use more than the heat the batteries will have to deal with.

If you are in a cold climate, the L1 might be a good thing to slowly warm the batteries, allowing them to charge to a higher SOC. I don't think it will matter much to most people though, and the ease of L2 makes me wonder how I ever lived without it.

 

[planet4ever]

Do you agree that heating the battery is bad and that keeping the battery cooler will prolong battery life?

I have not seen any shred of evidence that L1 charging shortens the life of a battery compared to L2 charging, nor any rational explanation as to why it should.

Since you quoted me I assume your question was addressed to me, though Caracalover just did a very good job of answering it, and I agree with him. I will add one point: It isn't adding heat to the battery that is bad, but adding temperature. Adding heat does of course raise the temperature, in general, but the battery can also dissipate heat over time. So adding, say, 100 btu over 12 hours (as L1 might do) is not as bad as adding 100 btu over 4 hours (as L2 might do).
NOTE: Numbers made up. I don't know anything about the real heat values for L1 and L2 charging, but the relative values I gave shouldn't be too far off.

I said "one point", but I can't resist adding another one. As you said, KJD, L1 uses more electricity to charge the battery than L2 does. If the extra energy doesn't go into heat in the battery, where does it go? It heats up the charger and the cooling system, and ends up as heat outside the car, wherever that is located. So I suppose you could argue that in a tiny, highly insulated, garage, that lost energy might increase the garage temperature and the car body temperature, thereby heating the battery. But that would be really far-fetched.

Ray

 

[HuntLEAF]

I have had the LEAF for just a month and put 1074 miles on it. I use the L1 charger and have changed my mind about needing an L2. My commute is 14 miles one way and I sometimes go home for lunch. I live in southern CA so I use the air conditioning most days and still have no worries about being able to make it and have only dipped below 20 miles remaining one time. I typically charge to 80% unless I have some heavy driving to do the next day. Since energy rates are better after midnight, I start charging around 9pm so the majority of my charge time is at the lowest available charge rate.

A couple of things for you to think about. It appears that high temps will shorten the life of your battery pack by a considerable amount. If you had a L2 charger you could give your battery more time to cool down at night before you start charging.

Charging adds heat to the battery. L1 takes MORE than twice as long to charge as L2.

By using L1 you are wasting electricity. More juice is wasted running the cooling fans and pump for a longer time. L2 actually uses LESS electricity from the meter.

You already said that charging rates are better after midnight, so with L2 ALL of your charging time would be at the lowest rate possible.

Last thing is the EVSE upgrade will only cost you about 300 bucks, so cost is small.
http://www.evseupgrade.com/styled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you shorten the life of a 12,000 dollar battery pack are you really saving any money with L1 ?

The EVSE upgrade wont really work for me since my dryer is actually in the house. If I am going to pony up the money for the new outlet installation, I might as well get the station too.

As far as "burning through the battery", there is no data showing that an L1 charge wastes more energy than an L2 charge. That being said... If in fact it looks like I need to replace the batteries at the end of my lease, I will get a 2015 or 2016 model LEAF instead of purchasing my current one.

and KJD... I also picked my car up at Fontana Nissan.

 

[EVDRIVER]

It is nonsense about L2 being worse over L1. 3.2kw is a very low charging rate on a pack this size, we are talking about a measly 8A into the pack. 120V charging does use more power simply because the charge time is more than doubled and the cooling and sub systems must run 2X longer resulting in twice the energy use during this time which can be a draw of hundreds of watts. If I charge on L2 overnight my pack temp does not even change when it is cool, not even a half degree at times. Anyone that thinks L2 is worse better not use their brakes or ECO mode.

 

[ebill3]

Anyone that thinks L2 is worse better not use their brakes or ECO mode.

Love it!

Thanks for pointing that out - ECO and brakes at speed really pump in the Amps.

 

[smkettner]

Anyone that thinks L2 is worse better not use their brakes or ECO mode.

And they need to moderate the throttle to not see more than 2 bubbles either way on a regular basis.

 

[dcdivenut]

Always charged only with L1. Most days I charge to 80% or less overnight and 100% on weekends. My commute and other errands is around 40 miles a day. There were occasions I had to take my ICE on the weekend because I was low. But then not sure that can justify the expense of a 220V wiring and the EVSE.

Practically the same scenario here

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have had the LEAF for just a month and put 1074 miles on it. I use the L1 charger and have changed my mind about needing an L2. My commute is 14 miles one way and I sometimes go home for lunch. I live in southern CA so I use the air conditioning most days and still have no worries about being able to make it and have only dipped below 20 miles remaining one time. I typically charge to 80% unless I have some heavy driving to do the next day. Since energy rates are better after midnight, I start charging around 9pm so the majority of my charge time is at the lowest available charge rate.

A couple of things for you to think about. It appears that high temps will shorten the life of your battery pack by a considerable amount. If you had a L2 charger you could give your battery more time to cool down at night before you start charging.

Charging adds heat to the battery. L1 takes MORE than twice as long to charge as L2.

By using L1 you are wasting electricity. More juice is wasted running the cooling fans and pump for a longer time. L2 actually uses LESS electricity from the meter.

You already said that charging rates are better after midnight, so with L2 ALL of your charging time would be at the lowest rate possible.

Last thing is the EVSE upgrade will only cost you about 300 bucks, so cost is small.
http://www.evseupgrade.com/styled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you shorten the life of a 12,000 dollar battery pack are you really saving any money with L1 ?

The EVSE upgrade wont really work for me since my dryer is actually in the house. If I am going to pony up the money for the new outlet installation, I might as well get the station too.

As far as "burning through the battery", there is no data showing that an L1 charge wastes more energy than an L2 charge. That being said... If in fact it looks like I need to replace the batteries at the end of my lease, I will get a 2015 or 2016 model LEAF instead of purchasing my current one.

and KJD... I also picked my car up at Fontana Nissan.

what kind of data would you prefer we provide you? this has been discussed at length, a ton of supporting data has been provided and the fact of the matter; L1 at 12 amp and 120 volts charges with 75% efficiency. L2 at 16 amps and 240 volts charges at 88% efficiency.

 

[Q400HiFlyr]

I tried 120v only but, too often, trickle charging was not cutting it for me. I had my EVSE modified, and wired my own 240v outlet (and added a 120v outlet in that box, since that wall lacked one). Life's good now that what was once 9.5 hrs can be done in 3.5!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I tried 120v only but, too often, trickle charging was not cutting it for me. I had my EVSE modified, and wired my own 240v outlet (and added a 120v outlet in that box, since that wall lacked one). Life's good now that what was once 9.5 hrs can be done in 3.5!

i had my EVSE modified by Phil as well and was one of the first to get it but was in the process of moving so still did 120 volt charging for almost 4 months before i moved and got 240 hooked up and yes, one of the main requirements of new house was space in the panel for the circuit. as it is, the house we moved into had a 20 amp 240 volt circuit already installed to a single plug. i only had to change the plug to make it work