How Much Would You Be Willing To Pay For An L3 Charge?

[GeekEV]

I find it interesting that a lot of people think that 100% markup of the price of electricity is the highest it should be. Most products you buy have a 3-4 times markup, if not more. So why should electrcity only be a 2x markup?

You're forgetting that the electricity has already been marked up by the utility company...

And that electricity has a fixed cost delivery cost. You pay for the electricity, that's it. No shipping, no delivery drivers. And maintenance on an EVSE (barring vandalism) should be negligible.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

but markups fall into a few categories.

either its a product you make like factories where the markup is usually minor but sold in very large quantities

then its distributed by middlemen who bump it a bit then it gets to the retailer where the markups really begin since they are the end user liazon where returns, warranties, customer satisfaction, etc is factored in. here the markup is usually doubled or more.

so if the QC supplier has a very large network (unlikely) it will probably be paying market rates for power, so expect the power cost to us to be 4-5X market rates.

but then again, beats walking

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I find it interesting that a lot of people think that 100% markup of the price of electricity is the highest it should be. Most products you buy have a 3-4 times markup, if not more. So why should electrcity only be a 2x markup?

You're forgetting that the electricity has already been marked up by the utility company...

And that electricity has a fixed cost delivery cost. You pay for the electricity, that's it. No shipping, no delivery drivers. And maintenance on an EVSE (barring vandalism) should be negligible.

ya ok, lets take a current business model providing the same type of "here and now, on the spot" convenience and that would be food/beverage vending machines.

 

[KeiJidosha]

A dollar a kilowatt a minute in a convenient location with no wait to charge. The few times I'd use it, it would be worth it for the availability.

If you meant exactly what you typed there, that means you're willing to pay $3.77 a minute for an L2 charge? That works out to about $19 a mile for a Leaf...you'd be much better off taking a cab, or a limo or maybe renting a helicopter.

Maybe you mean if you could get a kilowatt-HOUR into the car in one minute, you'd pay a dollar for that, which is 30 cents a mile - that I could maybe see for emergencies, it's about 10mpg equivalent @$4/gal...but that's about double the L3 charge speed (I think).

Yes. A dollar, per KiloWattHour, per minute. QC is a very loose definition with people talking about 15-30 kW off board chargers. The Idea is I'm paying ~ 20¢ for the electricity and service away from home, and 80¢ for 80kW speed ($1/kWh total). If the Quick Charger is limited to 30kW, I'm thinking 30¢ for speed (50¢/kWh total). It’s a sliding scale. It’s the value of time and convenience.

 

[davewill]

I'm surprised no one has looked at it this way:

If I estimate that I'm five kWh short of enough to make it home, and I have a choice of a free L2 or a Quick Charge I have to pay for, which one will I choose? I want a little buffer, so so I decide to get 6 kWh. If the LEAF can accept 30kW from the QC and 3.8kW from the L2, then it's 12 minutes on the QC or 95 minutes on the L2.

So, how much is that extra 83 minutes out of my life worth to me? Obviously it depends on whether I can do something productive while I am waiting, and on how urgently I need to get home. But even though I'm retired I think I'd probably say that time was worth at least $20 or $25. So, just to round things off, I might say $4/kWh.

How much is an hour+ of your time worth?

Ray

Not that simple. That would only hold for me on an emergency basis. In a non-emergency, I'd have already planned my trip so that I could avoid a QC that expensive.

 

[thankyouOB]

it should be built as part of infrastructure, such as a roadway, and the charge should be the cost of electricity, perhaps the highest rate applied on a 24-hour basis.
I see no reason to privatize this anymore than I would privatize bridges, tunnels, dams, roads, sewerage, waterlines.
Utilities should be public investments.

 

[GeekEV]

ya ok, lets take a current business model providing the same type of "here and now, on the spot" convenience and that would be food/beverage vending machines.

Not quite apples-to-apples as those require periodic restocking by a delivery driver. Or were you suggesting comparing the price of a soda bottle in-store vs. a soda bottle in a vending machine as a comparison of something with high overhead (gas) vs something with low overhead (evse)? In that case, yeah, I see your point. The vending machines usually are cheaper than the store, but not by a huge margin. Using some very broad numbers and SWAGs, let's say that the "vending machine" is 75% the cost of the store, that the LEAF has the equivalent of a 3 gallon gas tank and that gas costs $4/gallon. That works out to $4.00 * 3 * 0.75 = $9, which is consistent with the $10 others have proposed.

But that still doesn't seem right because a gallon of gas and 4kWh of electricity don't have the same wholesale cost. From a 2006 California Energy report, I culled these numbers:

Crude Oil Cost 	- $1.25 	 
Refinery Cost and Profits - $0.51 	 
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits - $0.16  	 
State Underground Storage Tank Fee - $0.01 	 
State and Local Sales Tax - $0.18 	 
State Excise Tax - $0.18 	 
Federal Excise Tax - $0.18

The crude oil cost and refinery cost have gone up in recent years, but the taxes, marketing and profits probably haven't changed much. Let's replace the oil and refinery costs with the electricity and utility costs, and let's be generous and round up the taxes, fees and profits a bit:

Electricity Cost and Utility Profits - $0.60 	 (4kWh @ $0.15)
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits - $0.20  	 
State EVSE Fee (?) - $0.05 	 
State and Local Sales Tax - $0.20 	 
State Excise Tax - $0.20 	 
Federal Excise Tax - $0.20

That works out to a charge equivalent to $1.45 per "gallon" of electrical "gas". Given the earlier assumption of the LEAF's equivalent to a 3 gallon tank, that works out to $4.35 for a full charge. Round it up even further and call it an even $5. Now, granted, a gas station has a quicker turnaround time than a QC station would, but I think you can offset that since you can pack more cars into "parking spots" than the space typically allocated for gas pumps.

Now swap out the convenience store for some sort of restaurant. The extra cost of running a restaurant vs. a convenience store is offset by the fact that even a standalone restaurant is self sufficient. The same restaurant staff could cover the minimal help needed with the EVSEs. So, all in all, you've got the same profit margins as BOTH a restaurant AND a gas station, MINUS the expense of the convenience store and clerk.

That should be a very profitable business - all for $5 to fully charge a LEAF. Hell, I'm half tempted to turn this into a business plan and have a go at it myself...

EDIT: You may run into some issues with the fact that your average EV customer would be consuming a smaller quantity of energy that your average ICE customer would, though. But I still think if you factor in the restaurant and/or other entertainment you'd come out ahead. Better than either business by themselves, that's for sure.

 

[xtremeflyer]

vending machines usually are cheaper than the store, but not by a huge margin. Using some very broad numbers and SWAGs, let's say that the "vending machine" is 75% the cost of the store, that the LEAF has the equivalent of a 3 gallon gas tank and that gas costs $4/gallon.

But here's the kicker, sometimes Vending Machines are placed in strategic locations where they can sell that same bottle of soda for twice as much (like $3 vs $1.50). So that same thing can be applied here, if the L3 is placed in a high profile area, say midpoint between San Diego and Los Angeles, maybe they can charge $20 instead of $10.

 

[GeekEV]

But here's the kicker, sometimes Vending Machines are placed in strategic locations where they can sell that same bottle of soda for twice as much (like $3 vs $1.50). So that same thing can be applied here, if the L3 is placed in a high profile area, say midpoint between San Diego and Los Angeles, maybe they can charge $20 instead of $10.

Sure, there's always going to be those that will price gouge (for any variety of reasons). I don't expect this would be any different. I think we can only focus on the average use case, not the outliers.

 

[wsbca]

if the L3 is placed in a high profile area, say midpoint between San Diego and Los Angeles, maybe they can charge $20 instead of $10.

That might attract the (rare for the foreseeable future, I believe) person who only owns an EV and absolutely must travel between those two cities, but that price will push anyone who has a second gas car that gets > 13mpg to take the gas car instead. Which in turn will leave the L3 EVSE idle most of the time, with no recovery on the investment. It's close to a price that could make it cheaper for the EV-only owner to rent a Prius for the day.

I think this is all a case of insufficient data because there aren't enough cars or enough chargers around to create anything resembling market forces yet. It's my opinion that, for example, the alleged $2.50/hr (or $5/hr) pending for the Balboa Park stations would result in them gathering cobwebs, but I can't say for sure, all I can say is I personally won't have any reason to use them, ever, but that's just me.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ya, i refer to vending machine in the "captive audience" sense. like for example, any one of the 2 dozen we have at work. soda is reasonable at $1.35 a bottle, but that is about where it ends. the rest of the food is at least a 50% markup from a convenience store price which is marked up from grocery prices.

i think ultimately, the market will tell us what to charge. no doubt there will be the $3.00 an hour for L2 (walgrens) attempts that will probably fail. but eventually, it will come down to convenience where most will only use L3 because they pretty much have to and will pay "gas prices" for it.

 

[JimSouCal]

it should be built as part of infrastructure, such as a roadway, and the charge should be the cost of electricity, perhaps the highest rate applied on a 24-hour basis.
I see no reason to privatize this anymore than I would privatize bridges, tunnels, dams, roads, sewerage, waterlines.
Utilities should be public investments.

So, taking your framework a bit further, who would pay for the deploying of L3 chargers, and who would decide where the chargers would go? What about those decided to not drive a car--at all--why should they bear any burden whatsoever? Assuming you would tax to pay for it, how would that tax be assessed--or how would this work?

Currently, in CA our roadways are supposedly supported by excise tax on fuel as I understand it, meaning the more you drive, the more you pay.

Consistent with my views, I can see having the fire department a collective social structure, and education a social collective structure, and even medical a social collective structure--so I get that the commons does need things for the good of all. My inclination is the deployment of L3 charging stations should work primarily as a private endeavor supported by a mercantile synergy, but I am open to being swayed if you can present something that makes sense to me.

 

[LEAFer]

Q: (the original question) "How Much Would You Be Willing To Pay For An L3 Charge?"

A: What a Prius would pay.

Why ? Because that's a well accepted fuel-efficient more conventional vehicle alternative for comparison (JMHO). And, naturally, if it costs more than that, the LEAF stays home, and the Prius (which we happen NOT to have) takes the trip.

Generally ... a Prius' fuel cost is around 8c per mile. Our current electricity cost (from the wall) for the LEAF is 2.25c - 2.5c per mile (let's use 2.5c/mi). So this represents a 220% Mark-Up. Sounds high, but still fair.

So ... to put 80 miles into the LEAF: $6.40. If my driving efficiency is 4mpk (from the wall): that would equate to 20kWh or 32c per kWh, which is 3x the national (residential?) average. That should be a reasonable profit margin for the operator to recover their cost. (Not counting the extra business it might generate for a related/co-owned retail location nearby.)

 

[Mx5racer]

I think that $10 is reasonable to start. The cost of the electricity is minimal. Equipment, insurance, permits, land and maintenance will be a larger cost that they will want to recover early.
When you think about the $800 the port costs, does it really matter if the chage is $5 or $15?

 

[JimSouCal]

I..When you think about the $800 the port costs...

Didja have to remind me? :shock:

 

[Navin]

Let's say you charge 80% and we'll call that 80 miles on the Leaf. Compare that to a 25mpg car:
80/25 * 3.50 per gallon of gas is $11.20 per half hour divided by 30 minutes is about $.37/minute.

I'd pay 50 cents a minute. I think a per minute rate is the fairest because no two charges will be the same. Remember, when you get to the quick charge station you've driven a bunch of miles in your Leaf and saved gas already! That needs to be factored in. The charging station is for the SECOND 80 miles from your house. The first 80 miles of charge were taken care of in your garage. When you get to your destination if there is free L2 or L1 charging then you save again. So of course it's convenience, we all have charging stations at our houses!

If I can leave my ICE at home, use the Leaf and all it's benefits then cost isn't the only factor. The cost of electricity is a concern for the owner of the L3 station, but the important pricing factor is the cost of gasoline. That's what you're competing against.

The price could be adjusted just like gasoline. I would pay one seventh of the cost of a gallon of gas per minute of charge (and probably a little more).

 

[Blackhouse]

I would pay $3 for up to 10 minutes and $5 for 10+ minutes to a full charge, 80%. I would also get some groceries, snack, meal or other needed items while waiting. Anything more and I would just take the Prius.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...When you think about the $800 the port costs, does it really matter if the charge is $5 or $15?

Or the $2050 the QC port costs on the 2012 model year. (The difference in MSRP between the SV and SL, the QC port being standard on the SL and not available on the SV.)

 

[lambert]

I like the vending machine analogy. Under certain circumstances, I would happily pay $10 to get an L3 charge to 80%, but not always. Convenience and location will play a major part in how these quick charge stations are used and how the service should be priced.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Nissan to make a Quick Charger for <$5k?

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NISSANCHANNEL/index.html?bctid=1143596591001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at ~13:20. That would change things.