How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[shrink]

Page 3 of the Customer Information and Disclosure Form:
"Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to: Sustained high battery temperatures (caused, for example, by exposure to very high ambient temperatures."

Good point; however, I would argue that defining "very high ambient temperatures" would make the disclosure stronger, as would an additional warm climate disclaimer. The fact that Phoenix (or was it the whole state of Arizona?) was a launch market implies to the consumer that the car will live up to stated expectations with normal usage. A lot of affected Phoenix area cars were charged to 80% regularly, which Nissan refers to as "long-life" mode.

An even stronger and clearer disclaimer, considering they are calling 15% loss in 1-year normal, would be making clear exactly that: "In warm climates because of high ambient temperatures, you may see up to 15% loss (or 20% if the reports 2-bar losses are accurate) within the first year and x amount of capacity after 5 years." I wonder how many cars they would have sold then.

With the current Disclosure Form, I don't think anyone would have expected 15% loss in 1-year.

There has been talk that Nissan is researching the matter and might "do the right thing." However, I don't see any evidence that this is the case, and if anything, that is pure conjecture.

Published reports have indicated they are aware of what's happening and have called the loss normal. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see any indication they are taking it any further than that. I did see this in the Service Manual:

LI-ION BATTERY GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA CLEAR
Perform Li-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss Data Clear when the Li-ion battery pack assembly or Li-ion bat- tery controller is replaced with a new one. VCM saves the Li-ion battery deterioration information sent from the Li-ion battery controller and manages the Li-ion battery replacement timing. When the Li-ion battery pack assembly or Li-ion battery controller is replaced with a new one, there is a difference between the Li-ion bat- tery deterioration data stored in VCM and the actual Li-ion battery deterioration level. In this case, VCM will incorrectly manage the Li-ion battery replacement timing. So perform Li-ion Battery Deterioration Data Clear to clear the Li-ion battery deterioration data stored in VCM.

So maybe at the annual battery inspections, they are gathering this data, but they are certainly not sharing and have thus far continued to call the loss normal.

At minimum, Nissan's response thus far is very poor customer relations and can potentially hurt the brand and the movement. You would hope they'd take better care of their customers.

 

[surfingslovak]

There has been talk that Nissan is researching the matter and might "do the right thing." However, I don't see any evidence that this is the case, and if anything, that is pure conjecture.

Would this help to convince you? It's just a small piece of the traffic this and other related threads attract.

 

[EVDrive]

I went to phoenix last week, good god is it hot there. 110f but it felt like 130f. Almost nobody was outside for more than a few minutes at a time downtime. Downtown seemed very sparse compared to every other big city, everyone seemed to be hiding out from the heat at home or had left for the summer.

I wonder if Nissan picked AZ as a rollout state to test the battery. Az is usually the second hottest place in the us besides death valley and practically nobody lives in death valley. Well, at least Nissan is getting some data on how the battery holds up in the crazy AZ summer heat.

How many temp bars are people seeing on the leaf when driving there in the summer? It must be high.

 

[shrink]

a few weeks ago the OP, RegGuheert, was getting blasted for creating this thread because there were "only 5"

True and I was also very critical of his ideas, dismissing them as alarmist and too drastic. Reg, I now (obviously) agree. Thanks for posting your concerns and starting the discussion. Hope I (and others) weren't too harsh on you. I have to admit, I didn't want to believe it at first, but as the reports keep coming in, my opinion changed.

I have to admit, your original idea of lease-only and offering buy backs of purchased LEAFs in warm climates is sounding better and better.

 

[shrink]

I went to phoenix last week, good god is it hot there. 110f but it felt like 130f.

Yes, but it's a dry heat. :lol:

Downtown seemed very sparse compared to every other big city, everyone seemed to be hiding out from the heat at home or had left for the summer.

It's improving. It has a lot more life than you think, but you have to know where to go.

How many temp bars are people seeing on the leaf when driving there in the summer? It must be high.

Owners were discussing this in the regional thread. It's typically 6 in the AM and 7 after work in the late afternoons/evenings.

 

[LEAFfan]

I went to phoenix last week, good god is it hot there. 110f but it felt like 130f. Almost nobody was outside for more than a few minutes at a time downtime. Downtown seemed very sparse compared to every other big city, everyone seemed to be hiding out from the heat at home or had left for the summer.

I wonder if Nissan picked AZ as a rollout state to test the battery. Az is usually the second hottest place in the us besides death valley and practically nobody lives in death valley. Well, at least Nissan is getting some data on how the battery holds up in the crazy AZ summer heat.

How many temp bars are people seeing on the leaf when driving there in the summer? It must be high.

Actually, after one year and almost 10K miles, I finally hit my first 8 bars today after two QCs (started with 6 temp bars), one to an actual 71% and the next right after to an actual 80% (100% setting on the QC). The ambient temp was around 105F.

 

[DaveEV]

There has been talk that Nissan is researching the matter and might "do the right thing." However, I don't see any evidence that this is the case, and if anything, that is pure conjecture.

Would this help to convince you? It's just a small piece of the traffic this and other related threads attract.

[img]http://c.statcounter.com/7943623/0/adb142f0/1/[/img]

That's why you stick all those hidden stat counter images in your posts...

 

[azknauer]

Hi All.
I like all the feedback from the AZ Leafers, but some of the Socal comments are kind of :?: :?:, sounds almost like they are working for Nissan.?
My Leaf has now 9578 miles, 11 capacity bars and 86 miles theoretical range after full charge.
Real odometer driving range today was 67.8 miles with 7 miles theoretical range left.
For that I drove 5.4 miles highway at max 70mph and 62.4 miles stop and go, all with AC running at 78F.
I went to one of the Valleys Nissan Dealers to get a trade-in value for my Leaf.
They would pay me $18700 for my 2011 Leaf SL-E with no dings or scratches, looks like new, which is a full $400 more than 50% of what I paid "only" 13.5 month ago!!
:evil:
Really??
Don't know... what...:?: :?: :?:
I went to sleep about 3 hours ago, but woke up again and had the need to post this.
Going back to sleep now if I can......

 

[DaveEV]

Real odometer driving range today was 67.8 miles with 7 miles theoretical range left.
For that I drove 5.4 miles highway at max 70mph and 62.4 miles stop and go, all with AC running at 78F.

That doesn't sound all that unreasonable depending on your efficiency for the trip. Did you get to LBW? What was your mi/kWh for the driving?

 

[shrink]

Valleys Nissan Dealers to get a trade-in value for my Leaf.
They would pay me $18700 for my 2011 Leaf SL-E with no dings or scratches, looks like new

That's outrageous:

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/nissan-leaf-and-chevy-volt-resale-values-holding-strong-46711.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"NADA pegs the 2011 Leaf’s average trade-in value at $23,975. When factoring in the full federal tax credit of $7,500, the Leaf’s net sticker price was figured to be $25,280."


Keep an eye on your PM. We're trying to get a more local discussion group going.

 

[shrink]

Would this help to convince you? It's just a small piece of the traffic this and other related threads attract.

Not really, but I'm crazy impressed you have access to such data. I'm outta my league.

I'm not surprised there is monitoring of a public forum, but the only public comments are. "It's normal." That has been reported in press articles and by members being told that by service departments.

Without a capacity warranty and no other statements of concern for the affected owners, I see no indication that Nissan plans to take any action.

I do hope I'm wrong.

 

[RegGuheert]

Since we are all alarmed now, whats a fair used value for a year old Leaf with a missing capacity bar?.. any hope of selling one with two bars missing?

Well, it took a while to get your answer, but here it is:

I went to one of the Valleys Nissan Dealers to get a trade-in value for my Leaf.
They would pay me $18700 for my 2011 Leaf SL-E with no dings or scratches, looks like new, which is a full $400 more than 50% of what I paid "only" 13.5 month ago!!
:evil:
Really??
Don't know... what...:?: :?: :?:
I went to sleep about 3 hours ago, but woke up again and had the need to post this.
Going back to sleep now if I can......

That number is WAY below the Edmunds value for the car. Of course Edmunds is too high since they have not subtracted out the government rebate, but even with that it is STILL way below Edmunds. (FWIW, Kelly Blue Book does not seem to want to give a value for the car.)

The simple fact is that the Nissan dealers in Phoenix know what is going on with the LEAF batteries there and they don't want to take the hit for it. And frankly they shouldn't. But is it really fair to pass it on to the customers? That's their only recourse until Nissan takes a step in a positive direction on this issue.

IIRC, LEAFfan said in the other thread that one of the owners of a LEAF which lost a capacity bar early on traded in their car for something else. I wonder how much they got and whether that was from a Nissan dealer or somebody else.

 

[RegGuheert]

a few weeks ago the OP, RegGuheert, was getting blasted for creating this thread because there were "only 5"

True and I was also very critical of his ideas, dismissing them as alarmist and too drastic. Reg, I now (obviously) agree. Thanks for posting your concerns and starting the discussion. Hope I (and others) weren't too harsh on you. I have to admit, I didn't want to believe it at first, but as the reports keep coming in, my opinion changed.

I have to admit, your original idea of lease-only and offering buy backs of purchased LEAFs in warm climates is sounding better and better.

Thanks.

I knew this wouldn't be a popular topic here since we are all pretty enamoured with our cars. And my original title put off many people because they did not agree with my proposal or even the premise behind it. Clearly some still do not.

But I have to believe that many LEAF owners in hot climates will not be pleased with the reality of the capacity losses they will see. Frankly, I don't see that there is enough information given in any of Nissan's disclaimers for a buyer in a hot climate to be able to reasonably imagine this level of loss before the purchased the car.

 

[Herm]

Frankly, I don't see that there is enough information given in any of Nissan's disclaimers for a buyer in a hot climate to be able to reasonably imagine this level of loss before the purchased the car.

You think Nissan should put a label across the steering wheel?.. like one of those strips they put on hotel toilet seats.

 

[Herm]

I still think Nissan should respond by restricting the use of 100% charging.. and fix all the software bugs while they are doing that update.

 

[hill]

Everyone, I respect your opinions, but you have to admit, that is what they are. The data presented here is anecdotal and interpreted by people that mean well, but they are simply lay interpretations that are biased by personal expectations and conjecture.

If there is an issue, those that are qualified to make that assessment will do so, and will provide the necessary corrective actions.

In the mean time, if you feel that you have a legitimate issue with your LEAF, I suggest that you visit your dealer and have your car examined. If you don't like the diagnosis you receive from that dealer, go to another dealer and have it checked again. If you still don't like the diagnosis, take it to a 3rd dealer and have it checked again. . . . . . . . . . . snip

I respect your opinion too. That said, your response sounds like what one hears from the Nissan folks. It took almost a YEAR to get our noisy on board charger replaced ... which was an item Nissan clearly did NOT disclaim. Car dealers don't necessarily 'do the right thing' ... even when it's a life threatening issue (think Ford Pinto). So who'd be dumb enough to think that a non-life threatening issue will get quickly resolved.

.

 

[leafkabob]

You're bumming me out OrientExpress. I didn't realize that literature warned me about this situation in advance. So I dug out the documents and looked at both and for the life of me I can't find anything in there that says because I live in Phoenix I should expect a faster gradual battery degredation rate than the rest of the Leaf buying world. I'm sure it is in there but I'm not seeing it. Can you point me to it?

I think the problem here is that the information was accidentally deleted from the documents that came with the Leafs sold in Phoenix. Of course, it wasn't included in the documents for other areas of the country because it didn't apply there. :lol:

Page 3 of the Customer Information and Disclosure Form:
"Gradual loss of battery capacity. Like all lithium ion batteries, the 2012 LEAF battery will experience a reduction in the amount of electricity or charge it can hold over time, resulting in a reduction in the vehicle's range. This is normal and expected. The rate of reduction cannot be assured, however, the battery is expected to maintain approximately 80% of its initial capacity after 5 years of normal operation and recommended care, but this is not guaranteed. This number may be higher or lower depending upon usage and care. Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to: Sustained high battery temperatures (caused, for example, by exposure to very high ambient temperatures or extending highway driving with multiple quick charges), and Sustained high bettery state of charge (caused, for example, by frequently charging to 100% state of charge and/or leaving the battery above 80% of charge for long periods of time)."

I've gone through my LEAF folder three times and I still don't see that document in there. Not saying I didn't sign it (although I don't recall doing so) but if I did, they did not give me a copy of it, despite giving me copies of every other document that was on the table that day. What they did give me was a couple of zeroxed pages from the Warranty paperwork with this part circled:
LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
- Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above 120F (49C) for over 24 hours
- Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C) for over seven days.

 

[RegGuheert]

I've gone through my LEAF folder three times and I still don't see that document in there. Not saying I didn't sign it (although I don't recall doing so) but if I did, they did not give me a copy of it, despite giving me copies of every other document that was on the table that day.

That would be interesting if they did not have you sign it. We definitely did sign that! It is the only place that I can find text similar to the following:

Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to: Sustained high battery temperatures (caused, for example, by exposure to very high ambient temperatures or extending highway driving with multiple quick charges), and Sustained high bettery state of charge (caused, for example, by frequently charging to 100% state of charge and/or leaving the battery above 80% of charge for long periods of time)."

 

[Stoaty]

Would this help to convince you? It's just a small piece of the traffic this and other related threads attract.

Perhaps you can explain what this cut-off image means. I can't make heads or tails of it.

 

[TickTock]

I still think Nissan should respond by restricting the use of 100% charging.. and fix all the software bugs while they are doing that update.

I don't think there has been any data to suggest that charging habits have strong influence on the phenomenon. The localization to AZ and TX certainly is a strong indicator to ambient heat. My Leaf sits at ~10% for most of it's life (sitting in my garage waiting to be charged to 80% in the morning) and and a close second is the the time it sits at ~45% in the lower level of the parking deck at work (fully shaded but this is when it is exposed to the highest temperatures).