How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[ztanos]

Wait... it gets hot in Phoenix?

 

[ztanos]

Nissan on Facebook just made a statement:

Nissan LEAF
There have been growing concerns among the Nissan LEAF community - specifically from several owners in the Phoenix area - about battery capacity loss they're experiencing with their LEAF. To address the reports, Carla Bailo, Senior Vice President of Research and Development for Nissan Americas, has written an open letter to LEAF Owners on MyNissanLEAF.com, the forum whose community helped bring concerns to our attention.

We are committed to working closely with our owners who have reported battery capacity loss to get answers that the LEAF community deserve in a timely and transparent manner. Nissan engineers from our Arizona Testing Center and around the world will study each customer case, work to understanding the root cause and will determine next steps to satisfy our customers.

Thank you to all of our LEAF Owners who have shared their feedback here on the Nissan LEAF Facebook Page, we can't do this without you. - Nissan Social

My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Early Capacity Losses
http://www.mynissanleaf.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Like · · Share · 1 · 3 minutes ago ·

 

[surfingslovak]

Thank you for doing that! Any chance we cold get this graph online?

Sure! Should I put it on the Wiki near the other one?

I think that would great, if you had time

I didn't purchase the 2012 shop manual and don't have access to this chart. I imagine that it's true for a number of others as well. It would be very helpful to have it as a reference.

Battery Temperature Gauge (Nissan Leaf Wiki)

 

[GRA]

Having just made a post which referenced it in the "Epic Norwegian Nissan Leaf Roadtrip" topic, it has just become clear to me that Nissan's response to its customers re the high-temp battery problems is exactly represented by Michael Palin's pet shop owner and the customers by John Cleese, in "The Dead Parrot" sketch. On the off-chance that there's anyone in the English-speaking world who's never seen or heard it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Following my working hypothesis that all of life can be explained by a Monty Python sketch, I think Ecotality/Blink's lagging installation of unreliable public EVSEs and/or the EVSE update scam, is best represented by the same two Pythons in "The Cheese Shop" sketch; just substitute "working EVSE" for "cheese" as appropriate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[hill]

Yes, you did miss something.

. . . . . . . . . snips . . . . . . . . .
...The Northern Hemisphere average land temperature, where the majority of Earth's land is located, was record warmest for June. This makes three months in a row — April, May, and June — in which record-high monthly land temperature records were set. Most areas experienced much higher-than-average monthly temperatures, including most of North America and Eurasia, and northern Africa. Only northern and western Europe, and the northwestern United States were notably cooler than average...

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2012/6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can view just how great the anomaly was for each month, in Phoenix and elsewhere, by selecting the month and year at the top of this page.

IIRC, it looks like Phoenix exceeded the norm by 2 to 5 degrees C, during nine out of ten, of the April-October months, in 2011-12.

I believe that's about the temperature increase that had been expected under the "worst case" scenario, for global heating, over the next 50 years, for the planet as a whole.

It's a nice graphic - but how is the time period nearly a quarter century before now, actually relevant. I'm not trying to sound skeptical - but why not have the closest 10 or 20 years as the base ... or 70 or 80 years ago as the base. I'm missing the rational in setting that particular 30ish years as a base. It seems random &/or self serving, because climate change has always been amorphic. Ok - so last year - it was hot . . . . this year . . . it is hot . . . I'm certain that everyone acknowledges that this summer is hotter than it was during the last ice age ... but . . . as it pertains to our car batteries - it's just hot. 110 degrees in stead of 105. And maybe it'll be hotter next year. I mean - once that battery hits 110 degrees - the fact that it was 103 or 105 degrees back in 1990 . . . what am I supposed to do with that factoid. Heck, Glacier National Park has no more glacier on the Canadian side any more. No one's doubting that it's getting warmer . . . and may likey continue . so now what

I'm hoping for a battery fix - 4 degrees hotter or 5.
.

 

[Nubo]

Having just made a post which referenced it in the "Epic Norwegian Nisasan Leaf Roadtrip" topic, it has just become clear to me that Nissan's response to its customers re the high-temp battery problems is exactly represented by Michael Palin's pet shop owner and the customers by John Cleese, in "The Dead Parrot" sketch. On the off-chance that there's anyone in the English-speaking world who's never seen or heard it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Following my working hypothesis that all of life can be explained by a Monty Python sketch, I think Ecotality/Blink's lagging installation of unreliable public EVSEs and/or the EVSE update scam, is best represented by the same two Pythons in "The Cheese Shop" sketch; just substitute "working EVSE" for "cheese" as appropriate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We wish to apologize to purchasers of the SL version of this car, for the peremptory nature of that announcement. The brusque tone was intended for buyers of the cheaper version.


.

 

[cwerdna]

Side note re: climate comparisons, I'm guessing many people don't know about heating degree days and cooling degree days. See http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/waskdays.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a brief description.

That might be another thing to look at besides average temps, average highs, maxes, etc.

 

[djchrispaul]

So after trading in my purchased leaf for a leased leaf, I live in Palm Springs, well over 100f every day, I have 500 miles on my new leaf, on 80% charge I am just getting 50 miles, flat roads here and using a/c. My 2011 leaf that I purchased was only charging to 9of 12 on 80% and range seemed to be suffering, that's why after 4000 miles I decided to change it out for a lease vehicle.
Gotta say this new one seems to have less range after 500 miles than my old one!
Really don't know what's going on and I am concerned, I find I lose a bar after a mile in fact yesterday I lost 2 bars after 4 miles and parked all day, when I came back I had lost another bar just sitting there, it was 104f
Figures based on 80% to low battery 42 miles with 10 on the GOM 3.2 kwm according to carwings.
I really want this to work but I am coming to the conclusion after 2 cars that Palm Springs just doesn't like leafs!

 

[TomT]

One of my favorite all-time Monty Python sketches and oh-so-relevant in this context!

it has just become clear to me that Nissan's response to its customers re the high-temp battery problems is exactly represented by Michael Palin's pet shop owner and the customers by John Cleese, in "The Dead Parrot" sketch.

 

[DaveEV]

Figures based on 80% to low battery 42 miles with 10 on the GOM 3.2 kwm according to carwings.

42 miles / 3.2 mi/kWh = 13.1 kWh which is about right from 80% to LBW for a new LEAF. Though 10 on the GOM sounds high for LBW - I would have expected it to show lower at 3.2 mi/kWh (which is very low for flat driving assuming no freeway).

Check the surfingslovak's reverse range chart - you'll see that 44 mi is expected at 3.2 mi/kWh from 80% to LBW.

I really want this to work but I am coming to the conclusion after 2 cars that Palm Springs just doesn't like leafs!

Personally, I wouldn't sweat it. Sounds like your new LEAF is normal - the heat just means that AC usage is really sucking down the battery to keep you comfortable!

 

[TonyWilliams]

80% charge I am just getting 50 miles, flat roads here and using a/c.

I think you're wise to trade out to a lease! I'm going to guess that your range is merely a look at the GuessOmeter, and therefore not appropriate for actually determining actual range. If that's not the case, and you actually do have some degradation, at some really hot threshold, the heat measured at the battery starts to restrict a full charge.

To give you an example, I drove in 60F - 70F temperatures in June during a nice drive across Oregon. At DC fast charge number eight for the day, my battery was heated to over 136F (10 bars on the dash battery temp gauge). This restricted the 100% charge to about 90-92% Gid count (a measure of stored battery energy).

Once the car cooled down, it once again charged to near 100% Gid. Naturally, the 12 bars of the dash mounted fuel gauge will just show 12 bars with every 100% charge, regardless of how much energy is actually stored in the battery. A 50% degraded battery will show 12 fuel bars. Your dealer's annual battery report will no doubt show all 5 of 5 stars also !!!

My point is that some percentage of any degradation that you observe in hot temps may be a factor of the Battery Management System (BMS) restricting the battery's full charge. That's different than the multiple battery capacity bars lost in so many desert areas, like yours (which I doubt you'll see for at least 6-9 months minimum).

My 2011 leaf that I purchased was only charging to 9of 12 on 80%

That can be normal for a perfectly healthy battery.

Really don't know what's going on and I am concerned

Why are you concerned? You have a lease, and our buddies at Nissan have assured us that virtually any battery degradation is normal, so if you turn it in with 3 or 4 missing degradation bars, that's perfectly normal. One caution; don't exceed any of the published limitations. A few of those limits are 120F, or above, for 24 hours and another is leaving the car stored at 100% charge for significant time.

If you need that lost capacity over the term of the lease, one poster claims you should just charge more. So there's that, or you could probably work the California Lemon Law to your advantage. Be prepared however, that the Nissan lawyers crafted their "no capacity loss covered" warranty just with such a law in mind. You'll have a fight, but I presume the poor little consumer will win:

http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"A special provision, often called the "Lemon Law," helps determine what is a reasonable number of repair attempts for problems that substantially impair the use, value, or safety of the vehicle. The "Lemon Law" applies to these problems if they arise during the first 18 months after the consumer received delivery of the vehicle or within the first 18,000 miles on the odometer, whichever occurs first. During the first 18 months or 18,000 miles, the "Lemon Law" presumes that a manufacturer has had a reasonable number of attempts to repair the vehicle if either:

(1) The same problem results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven and the problem has been subject to repair two or more times by the manufacturer or its agents, and the buyer or lessee has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or

(2) The same problem has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents and the buyer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or

(3) The vehicle is out of service because of the repair of any number of problems by the manufacturer or its agents for a cumulative total of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle."

when I came back I had lost another bar just sitting there, it was 104f

Normal for a good (or degraded) battery.

Figures based on 80% to low battery 42 miles with 10 on the GOM 3.2 kwm according to carwings. I really want this to work but I am coming to the conclusion after 2 cars that Palm Springs just doesn't like leafs!

Palm Springs (and any other torturously hot place like it) do not like ANY battery that does not have some way to protect itself from the heat, as the LEAF lacks. I'm going to completely ignore any of your GoM data. Since you only gave CarWings data for economy, I'll assume you have the latest firmware which reads 0.1 miles per kWh higher than the dash reading; your 3.2 becomes 3.1.

80% to LBW is about 62% of the useful energy of the normally 21kWh available at moderate temps, like 70F, therefore as much as 13kWh multiplied by 3.1 equals 39.3 miles. Using my range chart rule of 1% increase in capacity per 8F above 70F, at your 104F, I need to add 4%. Therefore, 13kWh plus 4% equals 13.5 kWh, at 3.1 miles per kWh equals 41.85 miles. Is that close enough ?

Congrats. Your car is fine.

 

[surfingslovak]

(1) The same problem results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven and the problem has been subject to repair two or more times by the manufacturer or its agents, and the buyer or lessee has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or

(2) The same problem has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents and the buyer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or

(3) The vehicle is out of service because of the repair of any number of problems by the manufacturer or its agents for a cumulative total of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle."

Interesting. I think my ActiveE would qualify for a buyback on all three counts. Yowza!

 

[djchrispaul]

80% charge I am just getting 50 miles, flat roads here and using a/c.

I think you're wise to trade out to a lease! I'm going to guess that your range is merely a look at the GuessOmeter, and therefore not appropriate for actually determining actual range. If that's not the case, and you actually do have some degradation, at some really hot threshold, the heat measured at the battery starts to restrict a full charge.

To give you an example, I drove in 60F - 70F temperatures in June during a nice drive across Oregon. At DC fast charge number eight for the day, my battery was heated to over 136F (10 bars on the dash battery temp gauge). This restricted the 100% charge to about 90-92% Gid count (a measure of stored battery energy).

Once the car cooled down, it once again charged to near 100% Gid. Naturally, the 12 bars of the dash mounted fuel gauge will just show 12 bars with every 100% charge, regardless of how much energy is actually stored in the battery. A 50% degraded battery will show 12 fuel bars. Your dealer's annual battery report will no doubt show all 5 of 5 stars also !!!

My point is that some percentage of any degradation that you observe in hot temps may be a factor of the Battery Management System (BMS) restricting the battery's full charge. That's different than the multiple battery capacity bars lost in so many desert areas, like yours (which I doubt you'll see for at least 6-9 months minimum).

My 2011 leaf that I purchased was only charging to 9of 12 on 80%

That can be normal for a perfectly healthy battery.

Really don't know what's going on and I am concerned

Why are you concerned? You have a lease, and our buddies at Nissan have assured us that virtually any battery degradation is normal, so if you turn it in with 3 or 4 missing degradation bars, that's perfectly normal. One caution; don't exceed any of the published limitations. A few of those limits are 120F, or above, for 24 hours and another is leaving the car stored at 100% charge for significant time.

If you need that lost capacity over the term of the lease, one poster claims you should just charge more. So there's that, or you could probably work the California Lemon Law to your advantage. Be prepared however, that the Nissan lawyers crafted their "no capacity loss covered" warranty just with such a law in mind. You'll have a fight, but I presume the poor little consumer will win:

http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"A special provision, often called the "Lemon Law," helps determine what is a reasonable number of repair attempts for problems that substantially impair the use, value, or safety of the vehicle. The "Lemon Law" applies to these problems if they arise during the first 18 months after the consumer received delivery of the vehicle or within the first 18,000 miles on the odometer, whichever occurs first. During the first 18 months or 18,000 miles, the "Lemon Law" presumes that a manufacturer has had a reasonable number of attempts to repair the vehicle if either:

(1) The same problem results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven and the problem has been subject to repair two or more times by the manufacturer or its agents, and the buyer or lessee has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or

(2) The same problem has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents and the buyer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual or

(3) The vehicle is out of service because of the repair of any number of problems by the manufacturer or its agents for a cumulative total of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle."

when I came back I had lost another bar just sitting there, it was 104f

Normal for a good (or degraded) battery.

Figures based on 80% to low battery 42 miles with 10 on the GOM 3.2 kwm according to carwings. I really want this to work but I am coming to the conclusion after 2 cars that Palm Springs just doesn't like leafs!

Palm Springs (and any other torturously hot place like it) do not like ANY battery that does not have some way to protect itself from the heat, as the LEAF lacks. I'm going to completely ignore any of your GoM data. Since you only gave CarWings data for economy, I'll assume you have the latest firmware which reads 0.1 miles per kWh higher than the dash reading; your 3.2 becomes 3.1.

80% to LBW is about 62% of the useful energy of the normally 21kWh available at moderate temps, like 70F, therefore as much as 13kWh multiplied by 3.1 equals 39.3 miles. Using my range chart rule of 1% increase in capacity per 8F above 70F, at your 104F, I need to add 4%. Therefore, 13kWh plus 4% equals 13.5 kWh, at 3.1 miles per kWh equals 41.85 miles. Is that close enough ?

Congrats. Your car is fine.

Thanks for the detailed info, I'll shut up now unless something more drastic happens!

 

[hill]

I'm certain there'll be some that'll whine & cry how this device is WAY too complex for the poor Leaf driver - but here's some photo's of a RAV-4ev owner who keeps the 100+ degree temps (while charging at home) off his traction pack, by building his own cooling system. Kinda though-full and 'cool' :

http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/cooler_in_place_2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/arms_out.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/exhaust01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/exhaust02.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/exhaust_manifold.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded02.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded03.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded04.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/storage_mode.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/cooler_in_place_1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Many EV'rs tout how creative they are - but then when faced with a challenge like high temps, WHAAAAHH . . . . and yes, count me in that group too. Nice to see someone took all that complaint energy (that I have too) and used it in a different way.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I'm certain there'll be some that'll whine & cry how this device is WAY too complex for the poor Leaf driver - but here's some photo's of a RAV-4ev owner who keeps the 100+ degree temps (while charging at home) off his traction pack, by building his own cooling system. Kinda though-full and 'cool' :


http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/arms_out.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/exhaust01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/exhaust02.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/exhaust_manifold.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded02.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded03.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/folded04.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.humanpoweredmessages.com/rav4ev/robocooler/storage_mode.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Many EV'rs tout how creative they are - but then when faced with a challenge like high temps, WHAAAAHH . . . . and yes, count me in that group too. Nice to see someone took all that complaint energy (that I have too) and used it in a different way.

LOL, so he used a standard window unit? ya know. i see these contact cooling /heating pads all over the place. wondering if you could get 4 or 5 of them, stick them to the metal battery cover underneath. if it can keep your iced tea cold, wonder how effective it would be in just cooling the batteries down to 80º?

 

[Herm]

The wet bulb temperature in Palm Springs averages 69° F in July and 44° in December.. you could rig up a swamp cooler to your battery pack easily, with very little electricity needed.

 

[surfingslovak]

Wow, that looks like something out of Space Odyssey 2001. Very creative! I hope average EV drivers won't have to worry about temperature in the future.

 

[RegGuheert]

Wow, that looks like something out of Space Odyssey 2001.

I was thinking more Lost in Space. :lol: "Danger, Wll Robinson! Danger!":

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG0ochx16Dg[/youtube]

 

[imwoody36]

http://autobeyours.com/2011%20Leaf%20Battery%20Pack.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here are photos of the leaf pack... apart

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Thanks!

Can you confirm that there was no fan found anywhere inside the battery casing and that the whole outer casing is sealed? The slide deck at http://www.nhtsa.gov/pdf/ev/Nissan_Presentation-Bob_Yakushi.pptx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; mentions it's sealed and shows a 1 hour immersion test.