Hypermilers: Don't use Neutral to coast to a stop

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LEAFfan said:
The problem for me with feathering the pedal instead of N is it is very difficult to hold it in neutral for any length of time and distance so it ends up actually using more energy than N. I will challenge anyone to do a feathering vs. N duel in the desert.
I did practice this a few times yesterday. Without too much trouble, I am able to keep it within +/- 0.2kW but I agree, it takes effort and is less safe than even putting it into Neutral since I have to keep cutting my eyes from the road to check. If I was trying for the world record, I might add an audible tone so I can do this safely keeping my eyes ahead but the ROI isn't there for me. I just wanted to let those folks who do care about this kind of thing be aware of this extra factor and not be fooled into thinking that N meant lowest energy draw.
 
You guys are splitting hairs in the scheme of things. Just keep your eyes on the road and drive well and yo udon;t need neutral or to look down ever, it's really not that difficult at all.
 
EVDRIVER said:
You guys are splitting hairs in the scheme of things. Just keep your eyes on the road and drive well and yo udon;t need neutral or to look down ever, it's really not that difficult at all.
Agreed - I don't ever use N. But I don't claim to be a hyper-miler either... just a thought exercise for me.
 
mkjayakumar said:
A Neutral on an EV is not the same as driving in neutral on an ICE vehicle. When driving in 'N' in a Leaf the car feels no different from driving in 'D' and not on the accelerator (except the silly regen).

HM missing lights is all silly. When the other stupid ICE drivers keep accelerating (not even maintaining the speed, but increasing the speed) when the lights 100 feet in front has just turned red, I coast, time the lights and whiz right past them when it turns green. In back roads with lights and traffic, invariably I am ahead than others around me with minimal variation in speeds.

+1! Well said! I've been HM since 1981 and never have I had any problems...just saved tons of fuel/energy.
 
Cmahrle said:
ttweed said:
If an unexpected emergency situation presents itself, the need to have immediate acceleration force to balance the car's handling during an avoidance maneuver or cornering on low-grip surfaces is compromised.
TT

Agreed. But I don't think many people actually accelerate in these situations anymore. Seems the reaction of choice is to slam on the brakes.
The correct response depends on the situation.
In a heavy rain hydroplaning situation in Atlanta 20 years back the right response was to gradually accelerate and carefully steer, which I did successfully while the idiot to the left of me that got on the brakes and did four 360 degree spins while I proceeded on.
But in the situation yesterday, where an idiot in a truck carrying a refrigerator started to pull in front of me when I was about 20 feet from them and doing 45 mph, panic braking was the right response. Fortunately they stopped. The panic braking was still inadequate and had they kept moving they would still have hit the front of the LEAF. But the panic braking would have kept them from hitting my wife in the front passenger's seat.
Had I accelerated and they had kept coming, it would have been a MUCH worse wreck.
The right response depends on the situation.
But 95% of the time, panic braking is the right response.

I don't use Neutral very much. It has to be just the right grade and situation for it to be worth the trouble. I agree that use of Neutral in low traction conditions is unwise and should never be done.
 
ttweed said:
Cmahrle said:
ttweed said:
If an unexpected emergency situation presents itself, the need to have immediate acceleration force to balance the car's handling during an avoidance maneuver or cornering on low-grip surfaces is compromised.
TT

Agreed. But I don't think many people actually accelerate in these situations anymore. Seems the reaction of choice is to slam on the brakes.
Which demonstrates how poorly educated most drivers are about basic vehicle dynamics. In an oversteer skid (rear end breaking loose) applying the brakes is the LAST thing you want to do. The proper correction is to countersteer and apply mild acceleration. Braking at such a moment will likely send the car into a spin. :roll:

TT

Obviously.

I wasn't saying the "reaction of choice" was the CORRECT one, just that is was the (unfortunate) popular one, since no one actually learns to drive anymore. :(
 
Cmahrle said:
... since no one actually learns to drive anymore. :(
Agreed.
When I was in high school, the high school provided pretty decent driver education. Not great, but far better than nothing.
In the past 15 to 20 years, most places in the country in the interest of holding down tax payer cost no matter what the overall societal cost, have unfortunately abandoned driver's education.
We need to be more like Germany, where people are required to drive well before being allowed to drive.
They require 90% on the driver's test, as a wife of one of the Volkswagen executives explained to us at a luncheon one day.
With regards to driving, we have a LOT to learn from Germany.
 
TimLee said:
The right response depends on the situation.
But 95% of the time, panic braking is the right response.
Yes, it is certainly situational, and braking hard is often a correct response, if only to reduce the kinetic energy before any impact, minimizing the resulting g-forces and damage in the crash. But it is always better to avoid the accident if at all possible, and this can only be done by being alert and focused, looking ahead and anticipating situations as much as possible, maintaining attention on the driving task, and being in full control of the vehicle at all times, especially when radical evasive maneuvers are necessary. Many people never even learn how to control their vehicles in extreme situations at the limits of grip, and we license them to drive without any such experience necessary. Waiting until something happens to learn car control is not an effective strategy, which is why I advocate for a policy that every school kid take a driving course like the Tire Rack Street Survival School before earning their license. Yes, vehicle safety has improved drastically over the years, with safety equipment like energy absorbing bumpers and chassis crumple zones, airbags, and electronic nannies like ABS and traction control systems to help people control their cars, but we still kill about 30,000 people per year in traffic accidents, and accept it as a routine "cost of doing business." We have spent trillions of dollars fighting terrorists who killed 3,000 people on 9/11, yet 30K deaths per year on our highways doesn't merit any funds for advanced driver training? Please excuse the rant, here, but it is a pet peeve of mine. I have instructed at such schools for over a decade now, and have heard first hand the positive results of such training, saving people from severe accidents by being prepared.

Even in the recent situation you cited, Tim, of a vehicle turning out in front of you suddenly, there was a possibility that you would need the accelerator if things had gone slightly differently, and if you were coasting in neutral (which I understand you were not, thankfully), you might not have had that option available to control the car adequately. Say the truck had not reacted and stopped like it did, but kept pulling out. You said that panic braking was not adequate to avoid crashing into them. What do you do next if they proceed to pull out? I would have braked hard in a straight line as you did, but at the last moment, if impact was inevitable, I would have tried an "accident avoidance lane-change" maneuver, a quick and extreme steering input to try to get my car around them, to one side or the other, depending on which path was clearer. If that succeeded and I was able to steer around them, in the act of straightening out to avoid running off the road or into oncoming traffic, it is likely the car would oversteer from the radical steering input applied. At that time you would want to counter-steer and accelerate mildly to settle the car and control any skid or impending spin induced from the excessive yawing forces. If you were coasting and couldn't get it in gear again during these chaotic actions, you would be SOL and spinning down or off the road out of control.

Even if such responses were necessary in less than 5% of such emergency situations, I would want to be prepared for them. And my last rant for the day: Please, people, hang up those cell phones and just drive! (That includes fiddling with your Leaf battery app while driving). Distracted driving kills!

TT
 
TimLee said:
...I don't use Neutral very much. It has to be just the right grade and situation for it to be worth the trouble. I agree that use of Neutral in low traction conditions is unwise and should never be done.
That depends on what you mean by "low traction conditions". When going around a curve in marginal traction conditions, such as snow or ice, neutral (or its equivalent: no braking, no acceleration) is best. Why? Any acceleration (which includes "deceleration", I'm using it in the physics sense) decreases friction and increases the risk of breaking free. Braking or accelerating should be done before or after entering the curve. Cornering on ice is best done in neutral for just that reason; in a manual transmission car stepping on the clutch will suffice. Ideally one should be going slower in such situations but sometimes icy curves are unexpected.

One reason one should never use cruise control in rain or other low traction situations is that as the drive wheels slip a bit the cruise will accelerate and that will contribute to breaking free. When hydroplaning one doesn't want to accelerate or brake but to coast through the patch and recover when traction is regained.

[An aside for the sunbelt folks: on snowpacked roads icy spots are often found at intersections. Cars stopping and stopped glaze the snow at the intersection and it can make stopping for a stoplight or stop sign "interesting". Snow drivers learn to be especially cautious at intersections: not only is stopping more difficult because of the glazed snow but the cross traffic may also end up sliding through the intersection. Snowplow drivers know this and usually sand the intersections (in my state, others may use salt).]
 
TickTock said:
RegGuheert said:
TickTock said:
The reasoning why I say Neutral is not the most efficient mode to coast in is while the car is moving, the inverter draws 1-2kW of power even when in Neutral.
That seems like enough power that the car could accelerate on level ground.

I guess I'm a little skeptical since I believe this is the technique LEAFfan used to set his distance records. Can you tell us more about how you measured this?
This energy is getting used by the inverter. None of it makes it to the wheels.

used for what? the display? radio, computers, sensors, etc?

I think there needs to be a lot more investigation into this before we determine that this "load" is uniquely present when in neutral.

it my contention its always there and when in a drive mode where a zero reading is seen its due to regen covering that load.

Either way, maybe its my imagination or simply a subliminal suggestion telling me that neutral rolls easier and farther and faster than any "no net power" glide
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
TickTock said:
This energy is getting used by the inverter. None of it makes it to the wheels.

used for what? the display? radio, computers, sensors, etc?

I think there needs to be a lot more investigation into this before we determine that this "load" is uniquely present when in neutral.

it my contention its always there and when in a drive mode where a zero reading is seen its due to regen covering that load.

Either way, maybe its my imagination or simply a subliminal suggestion telling me that neutral rolls easier and farther and faster than any "no net power" glide
I agree that it is probably there all the time the car is moving regardless of N or D. I never intended to imply it was unique to N - just to point out that there is still a significant load while in N and moving. Thought the HM crowd would find it interesting.

It is my guess it is used by the inverter/motor controller since it does drop to near zero once the wheel stop turning.
 
I did notice this a while back but considered it insignificant. but never noticed that it dropped to a lower value at a lower speed. this way I will have to check out again
 
TimLee said:
Cmahrle said:
... since no one actually learns to drive anymore. :(
Agreed.
When I was in high school, the high school provided pretty decent driver education. Not great, but far better than nothing.
In the past 15 to 20 years, most places in the country in the interest of holding down tax payer cost no matter what the overall societal cost, have unfortunately abandoned driver's education.
We need to be more like Germany, where people are required to drive well before being allowed to drive.
They require 90% on the driver's test, as a wife of one of the Volkswagen executives explained to us at a luncheon one day.
With regards to driving, we have a LOT to learn from Germany.

Unfortunately the public driver's education programs themselves left a lot to be desired. I personally wouldn't call it "pretty decent", at least not in the greater Los Angeles area.

Elsewhere in much of the world, in order to get your license you have to get your driver education from a professional school, vs. the US high school programs where the instructors were often regular high school teachers and coaches looking for extra money.

Germany has good drivers, but driver education there is expensive, and as you already said licenses are not handed out so easily. Compare that to the US where many people feel a driver's license is a rite of passage into adulthood.

Speaking of expense, per http://www.expatica.com/de/essentials_moving_to/essentials/how-to-get-a-driving-license-in-germany-34198_9937.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it costs between €1,000-2000 and a minimum of 3 months at a Fahrschule to get your license in Germany.
 
TickTock said:
The reasoning why I say Neutral is not the most efficient mode to coast in is while the car is moving, the inverter draws 1-2kW of power even when in Neutral.
I've confirmed this using the Leaf Battery App. Coasting down a long hill at 55mph was drawing ~5amps (*400v -> 2000w - same ballpark).
The only way to get to zero energy in or out of the battery is to keep it in D or ECO and modulate the throttle.
I played around with it. Yes, I could get the battery draw down to 0A, however I had to use some regeneration to do so. If I actually modulated the throttle to have no accel or regen (as determined by the Leaf's energy screen on the nav), then I was seeing the same 5a draw.

Therefore, I don't think it matters if you use Neutral or not - the inverter is going to draw that extra current anyway. You can counteract that draw with some regen, but then you're slowing yourself down a bit to do so.
 
RegGuheert said:
TickTock said:
Agree - as stated in the OP, unless you actually come to a stop there really won't be any real impact.
Then perhaps you would consider changing the thread title?
Ha! Didn't even notice that. Will do.

[edit:] On second thought the subject was right after-all[/edit]
 
Again nothing vindicates as much as the experience of someone who practices coasting to increase range. Empirical evidence is king !
 
Ahhh yess this is my kind of thread .. Yes Im a hypermiler ...I found it interesting to see who could get the most out of our 24 KW batteries...Leaf-Fan was the champ ..I dropped out after losing bars and now im back with a new battery pack that appears to have more reserve charge in it ..Ill give up dates in Oct ..
LEAFfan said:
mkjayakumar said:
Again nothing vindicates as much as the experience of someone who practices coasting to increase range. Empirical evidence is king !

+1! Well.said.
 
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