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There is a chance that Nissan will donate some of these units; they reportedly did that in the UK. It wouldn't hurt to ask.Ingineer said:
I need an under 20KW DC ChaDeMo Quick Charger
- Thread starter TonyWilliams
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Randy
Well-known member
The whole idea about keeping the maximum demand to 20kW or less only works if a new service is being requested/used (i.e. the charger is not being added on to an existing service and adding to that max demand). In some cases, that could make for a more expensive installation due to the home run wiring needed to utility facilities for a new service. So, as in real estate, it's all about location, location, location and choosing a smart one to maximize traffic and minimize installation costs.
The utility will provide maps that can be used to help figure out where the most economical (or not) installation point could be. For example, the Blink DCFC can be fed with 480 or 208, and that can be helpful if the location doesn't have 480 service available. So if the DCFC equipment in question has multiple voltage inputs to choose from, that's a plus.
From the utility perspective, it is much easier/cheaper to ask for a new service that has a 20kW maximum (vs. 60kW). If you ask for a service that will be used mostly for 20kW, but has the capability of being used at the full 60kW input, then the utility service point has to be engineered/built to deliver the full 60kW all the time and will be more expensive. The planners at our utility tell me that a 60kW DCFC device draws the equivalent of 25 homes. Another reason why choosing the installation location is so important, since a 60kW connection is usually not just sitting there waiting for equipment to be connected to. Got to minimize the length of the utility runs to the service point...
All in all, even with a 20kW charger, the cost for the hardware, the necessary utility service, and the installation is going to add up to be be substantial, perhaps more than people think. For someone making a business out of charging, in order to make any kind of reasonable return on their investment, the price per use could be higher than people are willing to pay (see the "What would you pay for a DCFC" thread). And the business model needs frequent use to help pay for these costs, not less use that might be considered overpriced...
Bottom line, it's not as easy as people think...If you take away the subsidies that have funded many of the existing installations, the business case doesn't look nearly as attractive.
The utility will provide maps that can be used to help figure out where the most economical (or not) installation point could be. For example, the Blink DCFC can be fed with 480 or 208, and that can be helpful if the location doesn't have 480 service available. So if the DCFC equipment in question has multiple voltage inputs to choose from, that's a plus.
From the utility perspective, it is much easier/cheaper to ask for a new service that has a 20kW maximum (vs. 60kW). If you ask for a service that will be used mostly for 20kW, but has the capability of being used at the full 60kW input, then the utility service point has to be engineered/built to deliver the full 60kW all the time and will be more expensive. The planners at our utility tell me that a 60kW DCFC device draws the equivalent of 25 homes. Another reason why choosing the installation location is so important, since a 60kW connection is usually not just sitting there waiting for equipment to be connected to. Got to minimize the length of the utility runs to the service point...
All in all, even with a 20kW charger, the cost for the hardware, the necessary utility service, and the installation is going to add up to be be substantial, perhaps more than people think. For someone making a business out of charging, in order to make any kind of reasonable return on their investment, the price per use could be higher than people are willing to pay (see the "What would you pay for a DCFC" thread). And the business model needs frequent use to help pay for these costs, not less use that might be considered overpriced...
Bottom line, it's not as easy as people think...If you take away the subsidies that have funded many of the existing installations, the business case doesn't look nearly as attractive.
Ingineer
Well-known member
Most modern homes are four to a 25kW transformer typically, so 25 homes is a large stretch. If that was the case then each home would be limited to 2.4kW which is silly, as one electric dryer alone is more than that! Most homes I've seen, even here in the Bay Area, (where we have very mild weather) seem to have about a 4-5kW base load.Randy said:
I'm not sure what the target levels the Ecotality QC has been designed for, but the Leaf will never pull anywhere near that, and in addition the CHAdeMO standard only allows for up 125 amps maximum, and to pull 60kW, you'd need to be up near 480VDC battery voltage to get that. The data I've gathered on Leaf QC's shows a peek at around ~48kW.
Again, it's possible to install the QC and limit it to 25kW (or any arbitrary number), and it's fairly common for many commercial locations to have 200 amp 240v 3-phase delta service at minimum these days. That's 144kW of capability, which is more than adequate to squeeze in a "smart" QC that monitors total building load to keep peak under the 144kW (or any other arbitrary) limit. Even many modern homes in areas with hot climates have 200A service these days, which would be just barely enough to QC the Leaf at it's full rate! (You'd have to turn everything else off though!)
-Phil
hill
Well-known member
So . . . does that mean their electric utility planners are:Ingineer said:
- very much ignorant?
- very much liars?
- or ?
Ingineer
Well-known member
I'd say both! =)hill said:
What service do YOU have to your house? How many other houses share your transformer? What size is it?
-Phil
walterbays
Well-known member
Or... very very conservative?hill said:
If they make a mistake people's lights start flipping off, so I imagine they over provision. Make cautious estimates of all the components, double them, add them up, and then double again.
Right now I guess they view EVs as a problem to be dealt with, like another air conditioner that in the worst case can present them with large unpredictable loads. Eventually when smart grid and V2G arrives, they'll view EVs as a solution - a large, controllable, and distributed pool of energy storage that can buffer the unpredictable loads coming from other sources. The day may come when public charging will be free again, with the caveat that depending on grid conditions they may either charge or discharge your battery, but in the long run the more time you spend connected to the grid the more charge you will collect. Utilities might find paying for a few kWh to be cheaper than any other method of stabilizing grid flows.
lkkms2
Well-known member
Randy said:
I appreciate your explanation details and discussion of the challenges...
If 25 homes draw the equivalent of 60kW DCFC a developer would have to plan and get permits approved for the required electric distribution infrastructure. The cost would be covered by the selling price of the homes and the developer would make some kind of profit in the process.
The benefit of the reintroduction of EVs to our communities are many- cleaner air, reduced dependence on foreign oil, reduced trade deficit if we support EV auto plants in the U.S. For electric utilities most EV charging can be done off peak, contributing to maximizing the balanced use of existing infrastructure and helping to pay for the overhead and keep costs down for every utility user.
Since there are not too many "developers" for this new EV infrastructure that can easily cover the costs and easily make a profit it would seem appropriate for the utilities to "help with the planning" and lay the groundwork on the needed infrastructure to make things more feasible and help remove impediments. This would encourage the continued quick growth of EVs and resulting benefits to all in the communities, States, and Nation.
So, what is the appropriate number of QuickChargers that SDGE should support developing when there are already more than 700 households with Leafs in the San Diego area, and SCE for more than 2000(?) in the L.A. Area, and PG&E in Northern Calif.?
Can I say to the Utilities, "Heh, can you figure out a way and 'Just Get er Done' "!!!
TomT
Well-known member
Yep, I recently had a talk with LADWP as they were replacing transformers and cabling in my area and the supervisor told me that they used to figure 8 houses per 25Kw transformer but these days it is 4.
Ingineer said:
Ingineer
Well-known member
Randy's figure would suggest 10 houses per 25kW transformer, which is crazy. You will even typically see a 8-10 unit apartment block built in the last 20 years on it's own pad-mount 50kW transformer!TomT said:
-Phil
JoshSD
Member
Ingineer said:
That number is about right. It's an average of between 9 and 10 customers per distribution transformer. Now, that's an average, in SD's case that's about 1.4 million customers, in a large area that was built over many decades. Older neighborhoods close to the coast can have more, newer inland neighborhoods less (and/or larger transformers). As Randy pointed out, it's all about location. Not all are equal.
hill
Well-known member
On the Prius board, I recently posted about a set new homes being built by Kaufman & Broad in our city.
http://priuschat.com/forums/environmental-discussion/103152-cheep-date.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't know how big the transformers are - but by the amount of underground utility hatches throughout the streets, it looks like about a 1 to 4 ratio ... if in fact they are transformers. The homes are all having PV systems installed - and from the photo I posted you can see they're even including (or letting you opt for) EVSE's. That - along with AC running at night time (and who knows what else) would be a sizable hit on the grid - if all 80 homes were doing the same large hit simultaneously.
http://priuschat.com/forums/environmental-discussion/103152-cheep-date.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't know how big the transformers are - but by the amount of underground utility hatches throughout the streets, it looks like about a 1 to 4 ratio ... if in fact they are transformers. The homes are all having PV systems installed - and from the photo I posted you can see they're even including (or letting you opt for) EVSE's. That - along with AC running at night time (and who knows what else) would be a sizable hit on the grid - if all 80 homes were doing the same large hit simultaneously.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
TomT said:
Ingineer said:
All the houses in my 12 year old neighborhood have 220 amp service. I've never counted the transformers, but there are many. With just 72 houses here, it should be easy to get a total.
In my own house, my electric dryer pulls 4.4kW, a typical EV will pull 7.7kW from the wall (6.6 charger), and for many months through the summer, I have two A/C's on 50amp breakers that draw about 10kW each.
Without any of all the other lights, fans, computers, electric ovens, microwave, TV's, frig, freezers, dishwasher, etc, I could be pulling almost 30kW.
When I added the Mother addition I went from 200amp (standard for middle GA) to 600peak 450 continuous. That was 200 for mine, 200 for mother addition, and 100 for the pool. Originally I was suppose to be the only house on my trans. They required a new pole and removed two trees. But looking at the wires, I believe they put the house to the north of me on it as well.Ingineer said:
I found this article in the OEVA news:
http://www.sustainablebusinessoregon.com/articles/2012/02/psus-electric-avenue-gets-new-fast.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The new charger juices vehicle batteries at a 50-kilowatt rate, but it draws more than half of that from its battery system, only drawing about 20 kilowatts from the grid in real time."
That is the good news, but:
"Kanematsu is providing the system — which costs about $90,000 — ...."
http://www.sustainablebusinessoregon.com/articles/2012/02/psus-electric-avenue-gets-new-fast.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The new charger juices vehicle batteries at a 50-kilowatt rate, but it draws more than half of that from its battery system, only drawing about 20 kilowatts from the grid in real time."
That is the good news, but:
"Kanematsu is providing the system — which costs about $90,000 — ...."
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
camasleaf said:
Now we are talking!!
finally getting some real innovation going here!
Pretty cool - about twice the cost of currently available QC stations now, but 8x more than the Nissan unit if it ever starts shipping. Still could be cheaper than upgrading transmission lines, though, and definitely easier on the grid!camasleaf said:
Maybe the battery could do double-duty and provide some grid regulation, too?
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
As battery prices go down so will the unit itself. Thereis a big difference but saving the demand charge monthly makes for a pretty quick payback
muus
Well-known member
Kanematsu has three DC quick chargers available, the one that would best suite the "under 20kW" requirement would be the "DC Fast 25KW", input power is 16kW and output is 25kW. It's probably also the most "affordable" one. They also have an "Ultra Fast" model that can output 160kW :shock:
http://evcollective.com/charger/.com/charger/
http://evcollective.com/charger/.com/charger/
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Probably going to buy this:
http://www.andromedapower.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.andromedapower.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cost? Looks like ~$20k?TonyWilliams said:
The web page for it says it can take single phase AC input, but the spec sheets don't. Which one is correct?
Having a mobile unit that can plug into single phase 240 would be useful. You could easily charge at up to 9.6kW using a variety of NEMA 50A plugs/receptacles and looks like there are some NEMA 60A plugs receptacles which would be good for 11.5kW. Your typical house with a 200A panel could easily supply 30+ kW if hard wired appropriately and you make sure other loads in the house are off - though I wonder what the utility would think.
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