I need an under 20KW DC ChaDeMo Quick Charger

[Ingineer]

Yes this is a helluva deal! It shows a reserve though, who knows how high.

Here's a direct link. I'd buy it if I had the space to store another one!

-Phil

 

[Twinview]

I have been searching and lurking for a thread that might answer the question originally posted, but with a twist. Most of the discussion has centered on how to strip down a 3 phase DCQC and keep it under 20kw to avoid surcharges. And most of that discussion seemed aimed at commercial sites to build the charging infrastructure. However, living in Minnesota is like living in about 45 states that don't know what a DCQC is or when one might be made available. So it seems to me that with Leaf with on board 3.3kw charger (possibly going to 6.6kw with the next model), I should bypass the bottleneck and go to the Chademo directly. My outlet in my garage is the only thing wired to an offpeak meter (about .6 cents a kw at night) installed at my house. Since the outlet is 240v and I have 200amps of dedicated electricity, why wouldn't it make sense for me and others in the 45 locked out states, to buy a single phase 240v 70amp external charger with the Chademo standard. The estimates I have seen are in the $5,000 range, which would make sense if you didn't have any infrastructure to rely on. A handful of us in my metropolitan area could become our own infrastructure and use plugshare or some other service to assist each other. Home chargers that could deliver around 20kw would bypass the problem for the other states and be a game changer for Nissan Leaf sales. Is this possible or am I missing something?

 

[TonyWilliams]

... buy a single phase 240v 70amp external charger with the Chademo standard. The estimates I have seen are in the $5,000 range, which would make sense if you didn't have any infrastructure to rely on. A handful of us in my metropolitan area could become our own infrastructure and use plugshare or some other service to assist each other. Home chargers that could deliver around 20kw would bypass the problem for the other states and be a game changer for Nissan Leaf sales. Is this possible or am I missing something?

I'm not sure what you think you can buy for $5000. But, yes, other than the lowball price point, your plan sounds entirely sound.

 

[JeremyW]

It's going to be a while till we see a $5,000 CHAdeMO unit, prices like that only happen when you're in mass production. Here's a tear down of a 1.2kW Xantrex. This is the level of quality supply you'd need to design (or buy) in order to properly charge your pack via the CHAdeMO port.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27c4RTntAPw[/youtube]

I once worked for a company that made 500V DC sources capable of precision output and rated at 15kW, but they weren't power factor corrected and cost $20k :evil:

Jeremy

 

[Herm]

Can you avoid the 20kW demand charges if you have two meters and two accounts with the utility company feeding a single DC charger?

 

[DarkStar]

Can you avoid the 20kW demand charges if you have two meters and two accounts with the utility company feeding a single DC charger?

Why would there be a demand charge for 20kW? If you can get 200 amp service (at 240 volts) that would about 48kW of capacity from a "residential" service.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can you avoid the 20kW demand charges if you have two meters and two accounts with the utility company feeding a single DC charger?

Why would there be a demand charge for 20kW? If you can get 200 amp service (at 240 volts) that would about 48kW of capacity from a "residential" service.

I know that our cash cow San Diego Cash & Electric is planning residential demand fees also.

 

[EricH]

Can you avoid the 20kW demand charges if you have two meters and two accounts with the utility company feeding a single DC charger?

Why would there be a demand charge for 20kW? If you can get 200 amp service (at 240 volts) that would about 48kW of capacity from a "residential" service.

Peak demand drives a large amount of utility costs (generating capacity, transmission capacity), so cost-causation principles lead utilities to measure/charge for demand levels, not just kWh usage. Measuring demand used to have a cost associated, for special metering, so it was reserved for larger (in CA, >20kW) loads.
With smart metering, measuring demand is essentially "free", which would enable state policymakers to move to measuring/billing lower levels of demand, and the CPUC just opened an Order Instituting Rulemaking last week into residential electric rates.

Plus, any utility would probably ask why a customer wanted/needed 2 meters, and "I want to split my demand to avoid demand charges" would be a non-starter...

 

[Randy]

Why, Tony, I'll have to moo at you next time I see you

The CPUC is just starting an OIR (Order Instituting Rulemaking) proceeding for electric rates in the State of California. Here is a link to the CPUC page for the proceeding:

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/published/proceedings/R1206013.htm#documents" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This will be an important proceeding to follow and particiapate in. All of the hot topics will be covered, such as EV charging rates, tiered rates, low income rates, solar customer issues, net metering, time of use, etc.

The OIR document hasn't been posted yet, but it should be soon at the above link...

I've heard that one interesting aspect of the discussion will revolve around the costs to provide customers various levels of service, and in turn, the various subsidies that are currently in place for certain services and what those subsidies should be in the future...It should be very interesting...Check it out when it gets rolling....

Randy

 

[DarkStar]

Can you avoid the 20kW demand charges if you have two meters and two accounts with the utility company feeding a single DC charger?

Why would there be a demand charge for 20kW? If you can get 200 amp service (at 240 volts) that would about 48kW of capacity from a "residential" service.

Peak demand drives a large amount of utility costs (generating capacity, transmission capacity), so cost-causation principles lead utilities to measure/charge for demand levels, not just kWh usage. Measuring demand used to have a cost associated, for special metering, so it was reserved for larger (in CA, >20kW) loads.
With smart metering, measuring demand is essentially "free", which would enable state policymakers to move to measuring/billing lower levels of demand, and the CPUC just opened an Order Instituting Rulemaking last week into residential electric rates.

Plus, any utility would probably ask why a customer wanted/needed 2 meters, and "I want to split my demand to avoid demand charges" would be a non-starter...

I guess there is a huge difference between basic residential service in California vs. Oregon. Home residential service here has no demand charges if you have a standard 200 amp service. Even basic commercial service doesn't have a demand charge here.

 

[JeremyW]

I've heard that one interesting aspect of the discussion will revolve around the costs to provide customers various levels of service, and in turn, the various subsidies that are currently in place for certain services and what those subsidies should be in the future...It should be very interesting...Check it out when it gets rolling....

Here's hoping their sympathetic to the rapid charger demand fees issue since they won't let the utilities directly run the stations.

Honestly, the quick chargers present a challenging load to the grid, and yeah that's going to make the cow moo. :roll: Good thing my next job involves herding the cattle.

Jeremy

 

[EricH]

Why would there be a demand charge for 20kW? If you can get 200 amp service (at 240 volts) that would about 48kW of capacity from a "residential" service.

Peak demand drives a large amount of utility costs (generating capacity, transmission capacity), so cost-causation principles lead utilities to measure/charge for demand levels, not just kWh usage. Measuring demand used to have a cost associated, for special metering, so it was reserved for larger (in CA, >20kW) loads.
With smart metering, measuring demand is essentially "free", which would enable state policymakers to move to measuring/billing lower levels of demand, and the CPUC just opened an Order Instituting Rulemaking last week into residential electric rates.

Plus, any utility would probably ask why a customer wanted/needed 2 meters, and "I want to split my demand to avoid demand charges" would be a non-starter...

I guess there is a huge difference between basic residential service in California vs. Oregon. Home residential service here has no demand charges if you have a standard 200 amp service. Even basic commercial service doesn't have a demand charge here.

There are no residential demand charges in California. The 20 kW threshold applies to commercial accounts. However, metering technology makes those cutoffs merely historic artifacts, and thus subject to reconsideration.

 

[LEAFer]

There are no residential demand charges in California. The 20 kW threshold applies to commercial accounts. However, metering technology makes those cutoffs merely historic artifacts, and thus subject to reconsideration.

I am hearing backroom whispering (at a CA utility) to consider implementing residential demand rates.

 

[hill]

I am hearing backroom whispering (at a CA utility) to consider implementing residential demand rates.

I like me some PUC whisperings ... and it's about time, what with the utility being so constipated. It makes sense. My 240v main service panel breaker is 225 amps. In the same vein, wouldn't it take about a 20hp 240v rotary phase converter to run a (nearly) 20kW quick charger?

 

[Twinview]

After reading some of the comments about a 20kw home charger and looking back on the thread. I revisited the JFE Rapid system which utilizes a large battery pack to hold the energy before dumping it into an EV. I also read that 360green is utilizing something similar to supplement some of their charging stations in Chicago. Here is that article:

http://www.pikeresearch.com/blog/articles/energy-storage-is-key-to-reducing-the-cost-of-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wouldn't that meet our needs and satisfy the electric power companies by using overnight charging capacity to not only charge my car using a level 2 EVSE, but also charge a battery pack the same way, or maybe even with only a level 1 EVSE. This battery pack would be connected to the chademo (or whatever connector the owner needs) and allows a quick charge in minutes.

Since the battery pack doesn't need to fit inside the car, you could use cheaper batteries that tend to be larger. Taking this line of thought a step farther, why doesn't Nissan marry a back up battery pack to their Leaf to Home system. You could charge your car and charge the back up batteries as well. When you need to feed the house, you could utilize the battery pack first, before using the Leaf, or if there isn't an emergency, you just use it as quick charge unit for the Leaf. The regulators have nothing to complain about because most of this would be done at night. No surcharges necessary.

You want enough energy to quick charge your car multiple time a day, you just add capacity to your back up battery pack. Obviously, a large back battery system wouldn't be cheap, however, it sounds cheaper than building a 20kw home charger. You wouldn't be limited by 20kw either. Connecting it to the Leaf to Home system and you have a multi purpose platform that could eventually be connected to the smart grid as well.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I didnt read your entire post, but offer that the JFE unit is about $70k, plus taxes, title, and destination charges.

There are currently DC chargers that can operate on household 240v mono phase, up to as many amps as a typical house can handle (100amps = 24kW).

 

[Phoenix]

So why isn't anyone installing those mono-phase DC chargers? Are they also too costly? Or otherwise not ready for prime time?

 

[edatoakrun]

So why isn't anyone installing those mono-phase DC chargers? Are they also too costly? Or otherwise not ready for prime time?

And maybe not necessary, for most locations. A member of the Chico EAA, who is an electrician, told me that a simple way to survey for 3 phase availability (in areas with overhead service) is to simply look for 3 wires in a single plane, on the power poles.

Comments?

If this is correct, 3 phase seems pretty widely available, even in some relatively remote locations, here in North California.

 

[JeremyW]

If this is correct, 3 phase seems pretty widely available, even in some relatively remote locations, here in North California.

Generally, yes.

See: http://www.annsgarden.com/poles/poles.htm

Jeremy

 

[TonyWilliams]

So why isn't anyone installing those mono-phase DC chargers? Are they also too costly? Or otherwise not ready for prime time?

One simple reason is that the efficiency advantage goes to three phase. Mono phase requires much higher amperage loads (bigger, heavier, more costly, less efficient) than a three phase load of equivalent wattage.