Increase from 3.3kW to 6.6 kW sooner rather than later

[Spies]

Sure, but why do you care? Doesn't your car usually sit at home for at least 7 hours at night? The only argument for 6.6 I've heard which sounds valid to me is faster charging when someplace away from home.

Primarily but also grabbing shorter super off peak times for some. In some cases one will also need a quicker charge at home.

Totally agree on the off-peak window! Lucky for me the off-peak window for PG&E is 7 hours so the Leaf is right on the edge as it stands now. Any longer and I will be paying more than I should. Curious if anyone has a smaller off-peak window now.

 

[stanley]

SDG&E super saver rates for San Diego are from midnight to 5 AM. Obviously there will be some nights when this rate will not cover full charging and we will have to pay a higher rate for a portion of the over night charge

 

[LEAFfan]

Lighting loads - dwelling size (sqft) * 3: 2000*3: 6000 VA
Small appliance (kitchen): 3000 VA
Laundry: 1500 VA
Range: 10000 VA
Dishwasher: 800VA
Disposal: 800VA
Microwave: 1700VA
Dryer: 6000VA
Subtotal: 29800VA
AC/heat: 5000VA

First of all, you left out the water heater...5KW. The range is nowhere near 6KW...more like 3.3KW. An efficient dryer uses close to 5KW also. Most MWs today use more than 1KW...ours is 1.6KW. Heat pumps use 5KW...maybe 3KW after they get started except for the new high efficiency ones.

 

[Spies]

SDG&E super saver rates for San Diego are from midnight to 5 AM. Obviously there will be some nights when this rate will not cover full charging and we will have to pay a higher rate for a portion of the over night charge

Wow, that is a drag. I can certainly see how a faster charger could benefit those that only have a 5 hour off peak window and are pushing the Leaf to its limits on a daily basis. PG&E off peak is midnight to 7 AM during the week. I wonder why SDG&E off peak is so short.

 

[EVDRIVER]

SDG&E super saver rates for San Diego are from midnight to 5 AM. Obviously there will be some nights when this rate will not cover full charging and we will have to pay a higher rate for a portion of the over night charge

Wow, that is a drag. I can certainly see how a faster charger could benefit those that only have a 5 hour off peak window and are pushing the Leaf to its limits on a daily basis. PG&E off peak is midnight to 7 AM during the week. I wonder why SDG&E off peak is so short.

PGE summer EV rate off peak 12 midnight to 7 am.

 

[Smidge204]

Lighting loads - dwelling size (sqft) * 3: 2000*3: 6000 VA
Small appliance (kitchen): 3000 VA
Laundry: 1500 VA
Range: 10000 VA
Dishwasher: 800VA
Disposal: 800VA
Microwave: 1700VA
Dryer: 6000VA
Subtotal: 29800VA
AC/heat: 5000VA

First of all, you left out the water heater...5KW. The range is nowhere near 6KW...more like 3.3KW. An efficient dryer uses close to 5KW also. Most MWs today use more than 1KW...ours is 1.6KW. Heat pumps use 5KW...maybe 3KW after they get started except for the new high efficiency ones.

An electric range with four elements will typically need a feed capable of 7500VA or more. Mine has two 1250W elements and two 2500W elements. Not sure where 3.3kW is coming from here. If the electric range in the NEC estimation includes an oven (and it probably does) that's another 2000VA or so - making 10,000VA just about right.

Electric water heaters can draw as much as 10000VA as well, depending on the size and capacity. 5KVA is a pretty dinky unit - hope it's got a big tank or that you live alone and/or take short (or cold!) showers

And I never could figure out if a microwaves rating is based on from-the-wall wattage or delivered to the chamber wattage. Gotta try sticking my kill-a-watt on mine some time.

Anyway! Upgrading your service usually means replacing the electrical panel, or at least the guts of it (buss bars and frame). New main breaker. May or may not need new branch circuit breakers. It's a Big Deal(tm) to redo all the wiring so it'll cost you in labor. Meter and utility's wiring would likely remain unchanged even if going from 100A to 200A though obviously that's the utility company's call there.
=Smidge=

 

[TomT]

Yeah, when we went from 100 to 200 amp service a few years ago as part of our remodel, LADWP said to just use the existing feed wires and meter. They didn't care that we were doubling the amperage.

Anyway! Upgrading your service usually means replacing the electrical panel, or at least the guts of it (buss bars and frame). New main breaker. May or may not need new branch circuit breakers. It's a Big Deal(tm) to redo all the wiring so it'll cost you in labor. Meter and utility's wiring would likely remain unchanged even if going from 100A to 200A though obviously that's the utility company's call there.
=Smidge=

 

[Herm]

Remember anyone that bought the optional L3 charging port has a 3rd option.. a home charger that uses 240V at up to 60A, 14.4kw.

Thus the L3 port gives you future options that do not require changing the car's charger. Presently that option is not available but there are no technical reasons to prevent it.

 

[walterbays]

SDG&E super saver rates for San Diego are from midnight to 5 AM. Obviously there will be some nights when this rate will not cover full charging and we will have to pay a higher rate for a portion of the over night charge

Wow, that is a drag. I can certainly see how a faster charger could benefit those that only have a 5 hour off peak window and are pushing the Leaf to its limits on a daily basis. PG&E off peak is midnight to 7 AM during the week. I wonder why SDG&E off peak is so short.

As you note, the short super off peak window is only an issue if you're really pushing the Leaf's range on a regular basis. If someone needs nearly the entire capacity of the battery every day, then maybe (ahem) a Volt or a PHEV Prius would be a better fit?

Secondly, the experimental EV Project SDG&E rates are not bad at all, even so. Suppose you always need a full 8 hours L2 charge, 0% to 100%. On the summer EPEV-M rate schedule where off-peak is 18.4 cents and super off-peak is 7.6 cents, that averages out to 11.7 cents per kWh which isn't bad compared to some other California utilities.

If you need 7 hours, 12% to 100%, it would average out to 10.7 cents.

If you need 6 hours, 5% to 80%, it would average out to 9.4 cents.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Right. I have to think that an external 6kW DC Charger is going to be cheaper than a retrofit/replacement charger inside the Leaf.

Unfortunately, it only works at home, and I would want the 6kW charging on the go.

My Leaf 2.0 will be a 2014, and the chips will have fallen one way or another on it by then.

 

[garygid]

Why does SDG&E do this stuff?
No competition, captive customers, and apparently their relationship with the PUC lets them get away with doing this sort of thing. Squeeze a bit more out of the peasants!

 

[AndyH]

Why does SDG&E do this stuff?
No competition, captive customers, and apparently their relationship with the PUC lets them get away with doing this sort of thing. Squeeze a bit more out of the peasants!

They're in the business of making money by selling electricity. In the overall scheme of things, SDG&E isn't forcing anyone to buy electricity and isn't forcing anyone to live in their area of coverage. Maybe it's time to swap your grid-tie inverter for a stand-alone model and flip the switch on the side of your house?

 

[EVDRIVER]

Right. I have to think that an external 6kW DC Charger is going to be cheaper than a retrofit/replacement charger inside the Leaf.

Unfortunately, it only works at home, and I would want the 6kW charging on the go.

My Leaf 2.0 will be a 2014, and the chips will have fallen one way or another on it by then.

Why do you say only works at home? I have installed several 9.6 kw chargers in my EVs and they are small and portable, 25% larger than a shoe box about. You absolutely can have up to 18kw of portable charging.

 

[kahlepj]

I think a couple of bad assumptions are being made here:

1) That we will only find Level 2 charging at our homes and
2) That we will only plug in at home overnight.

Both are not true. Private companies are already putting up level 2 charging stations. There will probably be more of these than the Level 3. Plus many of us in the Seattle Electric Vehicle Association (SEVA) make our own home charging stations available to each other as a shortcut to a broad charging infrastructure. Also, we have created a simple adapter that can be used to turn any simple dryer plug or stove outlet into a J1772 Level 2, 6.6kW capable supply station.

Because of this, having the ability to charge at a 6.6 kW rate would be a big advantage. Go visit grandma, plug into her dryer outlet in the garage and restore lost range at better than 25 miles per hour. Why wouldn't we want that capability?

Add to this, the information supplied by Nissan on the Level 3 charging option. Apparently it inputs so much power that the heat build up is actually harmful to the batteries. Nissan recommends you only use Level 3 charging once per day at most. So better to think of 6.6kW Level 2 charging as the highest safe charging level for the Leaf battery.

I would really like to see Nissan step forward and answer this question. Why such a dinky charger and when can we get a bigger one? Also, and most important, if we buy a Leaf in 2011, will we be able to upgrade to a larger charger later on. If that's not going to be a possibility, then leasing looks like a better option than buying.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I think a couple of bad assumptions are being made here:

1) That we will only find Level 2 charging at our homes and
2) That we will only plug in at home overnight.

Both are not true. Private companies are already putting up level 2 charging stations. There will probably be more of these than the Level 3. Plus many of us in the Seattle Electric Vehicle Association (SEVA) make our own home charging stations available to each other as a shortcut to a broad charging infrastructure. Also, we have created a simple adapter that can be used to turn any simple dryer plug or stove outlet into a J1772 Level 2, 6.6kW capable supply station.

Because of this, having the ability to charge at a 6.6 kW rate would be a big advantage. Go visit grandma, plug into her dryer outlet in the garage and restore lost range at better than 25 miles per hour. Why wouldn't we want that capability?

Add to this, the information supplied by Nissan on the Level 3 charging option. Apparently it inputs so much power that the heat build up is actually harmful to the batteries. Nissan recommends you only use Level 3 charging once per day at most. So better to think of 6.6kW Level 2 charging as the highest safe charging level for the Leaf battery.

I would really like to see Nissan step forward and answer this question. Why such a dinky charger and when can we get a bigger one? Also, and most important, if we buy a Leaf in 2011, will we be able to upgrade to a larger charger later on. If that's not going to be a possibility, then leasing looks like a better option than buying.

Welcome. You sound like you have some practical experience. Yes, 3.3 kw chargers are plain backward in an EV like this, not for everyone but many will soon realize why

 

[garygid]

Do you have a link to the Dryer (and other) Socket adapters (to use these sockets for J1772 charging)?
I could not find it, Thanks.

 

[AndyH]

Do you have a link to the Dryer (and other) Socket adapters (to use these sockets for J1772 charging)?
I could not find it, Thanks.

Both of these links should work on the WII.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=28145#p28145
http://modularevpower.com/

 

[AndyH]

Add to this, the information supplied by Nissan on the Level 3 charging option. Apparently it inputs so much power that the heat build up is actually harmful to the batteries. Nissan recommends you only use Level 3 charging once per day at most. So better to think of 6.6kW Level 2 charging as the highest safe charging level for the Leaf battery.

Sorry, bad info here as well. Nissan recommends not using L3 charging every day, but have said that it's ok to use it multiple times a day to take trips.

Additionally, the car's charger and BMS are in full control of the L3 charging process and simply will not allow a fast enough charge rate to damage the pack. The car has temperature sensors on cells and will throttle (must throttle!) the charger to protect the pack.

The degradation comes from L3's ability to exceed a 3C charge rate - and 1C or lower is best for long pack life.

I would still like a 6K6 on-board charger, though.

 

[LEAFer]

Andy: I think what kahlepj is talking about is the REVERSE of what you are linking to ... they (SEVA) are going from NEMA (dryer receptacle on the wall) to J-Plug (car). At least that how I read this ...

Also, we have created a simple adapter that can be used to turn any simple dryer plug or stove outlet into a J1772 Level 2, 6.6kW capable supply station.

 

[garygid]

Right.
Thanks for the links, but they "go the other way". :lol: