LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

[dgpcolorado]

Jesus, enough already! You want to wonk over technical specs of charging stations, make a topic for it!

Oh come on, it is a discussion forum. The hope was expressed by several here that LEAF 2 might be able to use the Tesla Supercharger network, which would allow it to do road trips, as opposed to being just a local/regional car. Several of us were trying to explain why that would not be possible unless Nissan chooses to go with TMS. You can judge for yourself whether that is likely — my sense is that it will not happen, at least for LEAF 2.

...So, if a 24kWH pack can make reasonable use of 50A (2C rate), a 60kWH pack can easily make use of a 100A station (1.66C rate). It has more diffusion capacity. 2C rate on a 40kWH pack is 80A. And today's pack sizes aren't tomorrow's pack sizes. Charging infrastructure is a long-term investment. I wouldn't predicate Nissan's future plans on the performance characteristics of the Gen1 LEAF...

The problem is that these are slow charging rates by Tesla Supercharger standards. Even if the LEAF charges at 390 volts, a 100 amp charge current would only work out to 39 kW. That is very slow by Tesla standards and simply wouldn't be allowed to use the Supercharger network. Could a LEAF 2 with no TMS charge at 2-3X that rate without damage to the battery, as Teslas do? I think not.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Tesla could add a couple of dual plug units at each SC site and charge us fees like eVgo. They have some good locations. They'd be supporting EVs and not tying up SCs.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Oh come on, it is a discussion forum. The hope was expressed by several here that LEAF 2 might be able to use the Tesla Supercharger network, which would allow it to do road trips, as opposed to being just a local/regional car. Several of us were trying to explain why that would not be possible unless Nissan chooses to go with TMS. You can judge for yourself whether that is likely — my sense is that it will not happen, at least for LEAF 2.

And that was worth a couple of posts. User filter now updated.

Speaking of creating pertinent topics: is there going to be a lease war between GM and Nissan, or will Nissan do what GM did for many months, and try to put profit per car ahead of number of cars leased? If Nissan sticks with 33% residuals, they will be offering $400 optioned SV leases while GM offers $300 Premiere leases. Loaded SLs would be leasing for close to $500. They have to raise residuals to about 40-45% in order to have a car that you could afford to lease, and then also afford to buy off lease later. Discuss. I was going to create a topic on this, but I'm getting a bit sick of the forum, and won't bother now.

 

[Nubo]

...So, if a 24kWH pack can make reasonable use of 50A (2C rate), a 60kWH pack can easily make use of a 100A station (1.66C rate). It has more diffusion capacity. 2C rate on a 40kWH pack is 80A. And today's pack sizes aren't tomorrow's pack sizes. Charging infrastructure is a long-term investment. I wouldn't predicate Nissan's future plans on the performance characteristics of the Gen1 LEAF...

The problem is that these are slow charging rates by Tesla Supercharger standards. Even if the LEAF charges at 390 volts, a 100 amp charge current would only work out to 39 kW. That is very slow by Tesla standards and simply wouldn't be allowed to use the Supercharger network. Could a LEAF 2 with no TMS charge at 2-3X that rate without damage to the battery, as Teslas do? I think not.

Well, I mixed up units there early on; I was in a hurry and they were secondary to my main point.

LEAF today can quick-charge to 80% in 30 minutes (at 65kW, 125A QC stations). It's reasonable to expect that a gen2 battery could do equally well. I.e, accept an 80% charge in 30 minutes. If we use the talked-about 60kWH LEAF as the target, it could be reasonably level to the 60kWH Model S, which are allowed on the SC network even though they do charge somewhat more slowly than the P85, P100, etc...

 

[SageBrush]

Well, I mixed up units there early on; I was in a hurry and they were secondary to my main point.

LEAF today can quick-charge to 80% in 30 minutes (at 65kW, 125A QC stations). It's reasonable to expect that a gen2 battery could do equally well. I.e, accept an 80% charge in 30 minutes.

One last time: amps * volts = watts
Nominal EV voltage is ~ 360 V

So 125 A * 360 V = 45 kW
Have you seen the taper curve of a LEAF on a 125A charger as it goes from 0 to 80% SoC ? I think not.
This graphic starts at 50% SoC
At ~ 70% SoC the charge rate is ~ 24 kW and dropping fast.
Try to imagine what happens on a hot day.
0 - 70% SoC averages ~ 30 kW, but most people won't be pulling in to the charger at 0% SoC will they ? How about 15% -> 95% as an exercise for you ?

 

[Nubo]

Well, I mixed up units there early on; I was in a hurry and they were secondary to my main point.

LEAF today can quick-charge to 80% in 30 minutes (at 65kW, 125A QC stations). It's reasonable to expect that a gen2 battery could do equally well. I.e, accept an 80% charge in 30 minutes.

One last time: amps * volts = watts
Nominal EV voltage is ~ 360 V

500V * 125A = 62.5 kW, which is the ChaDeMO specification.

I have used QC, and gotten the 80% in 30 minutes. It works. It's real. Starting with more than 0% SOC doesn't change that. It doesn't slow your time to 80%. Your 95% exercise doesn't change it either and and doesn't invalidate my point. All lithium chemistries must taper as they approach high SOC. As long as the charger network is sufficiently robust, it is in the drivers' best interest (be it Tesla or Nissan), to not waste their time in the long tail. And that's exactly the thing we've been discussing -- creating a more plentiful charge network so that drivers can make comfortable trips with a minimum of worry and with less distance between available charge points. It would mitigate your long-tail concern for both groups of drivers and allow more efficient use of the equipment overall.

 

[SageBrush]

The Chademo spec is perhaps the upper limit, but the LEAF (and every other EV on the road today) limits voltage to under 400V, and not infrequently quite a bit under 400V if there is cell inbalance. In the same vein the car limits the Amps to protect the battery. Nissan probably allows more DCFC battery damage than other manufacturers but they still taper the charge rate dramatically as the battery fills up.

I'm skeptical of an 0-80% charge in 30 minutes, but if possible it is probably limited to new cars in fairly ideal conditions. Tesla is not going let LEAFs degrade the SC experience, and they are well aware that LEAF batteries age (!), and heat up during hot days and after high power drains e.g., after a long elevation climb and taper rapidly.

This is a non-starter, and if you were not blinded by your desire to buy a cheap EV and piggy-back off the Tesla investment you would realize it too.

 

[Nubo]

This is a non-starter, and if you were not blinded by your desire to buy a cheap EV and piggy-back off the Tesla investment you would realize it too.

In order for the deal to work, Nissan would have to put forth enough resources to make it attractive to Tesla. I'm not hoping for any free lunch and have been talking about a win-win. Your persistent ad hominem attacks don't advance the discussion and they certainly don't make your arguments any more attractive.

My apologies to the other readers for allowing myself to be trolled this far. I'm going to sit back and wait for the news.

 

[IssacZachary]

I hope the new Nissan Leaf 2 comes with ultra capacitors that can charge up from 0% to 100% in less than a minute, need no thermal management, and will outlast the life of every other component on the car with absolutely zero degradation. But what we know so far is that such futuristic technology very likely won't be used on the next generation Leaf.

But hey! I can dream, can't I? :mrgreen:

 

[jhm614]

5 days to go!

What do we think we know so far?
New front and rear design
Same / very similar mid-body design
At least one two-tone paint option
A weak green paint option
40 kWh base
60 kWh option - but not sure it's available at launch
S, SV, SL price points similar to current prices
ProPilot option - single lane highway driving
ePedal - very strong regen, single pedal driving (is this an option or standard?)
--
Things we don't know:
Range
Price for 60 kWh upgrade
Charging Speed
Availability for 60 kWh option
General Availability
Aero (Thanks, NeilBlanchard)
Interior (Thanks, OrientExpress)
Battery Warranty (Thanks, OrientExpress)
TMS / Temp. Management System (Thanks, DNAinaGoodWay & LTLFTcomposite)

What else am I missing? Think we'll get any more leaks between now and Tuesday?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

5 days to go!

What do we think we know so far?
New front and rear design
Same / very similar mid-body design
At least one two-tone paint option
A weak green paint option
40 kWh base
60 kWh option - but not sure it's available at launch
S, SV, SL price points similar to current prices
ProPilot option - single lane highway driving
ePedal - very strong regen, single pedal driving (is this an option or standard?)
--
Things we don't know:
Range
Price for 60 kWh upgrade
Charging Speed
Availability for 60 kWh option
General Availability

What else am I missing? Think we'll get any more leaks between now and Tuesday?

How do you "know" any of the bolded statements? Due to the "leak"? As likely as they may be, we don't really know any of those things.

Oh, and according to Nissan Electric's facebook page this morning, we know that it will be "Simply Amazing".

https://www.facebook.com/NissanElectric/

The new #Nissan #LEAF. Simply Amazing.

 

[Joe6pack]

Wow, you're a real ray of sunshine. Everything he posted lines up with what has been rumored. If he's wrong, he's wrong, but I don't think he is.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

We have no rumor on TMS.

 

[evnow]

5 days to go!

60 kWh option - but not sure it's available at launch
...
Price for 60 kWh upgrade

I'll be floored if they have a 60 kwh option, either at launch or within a few months i.e. a definite timeline is given. Let alone a price.

Range

150 to 160 miles. "200" miles if you go by the old "100" miles Leaf in 2011.

 

[jhm614]

How do you "know" any of the bolded statements? Due to the "leak"? As likely as they may be, we don't really know any of those things.

You are right! That's why I used the "weasel phrase" -think we know-

But for what it's worth: the two tone paint job was from the Spanish commercial leak; the prices, 40kWh base and weak green option were from the AutoByTel leak; and the the 60 kWh option was reading various Jay Cole comment replies to commenters at InsideEvs.

We have no rumor on TMS.

Good one. That definitely needs to go on the list.

What do we think we know so far?
New front and rear design
Same / very similar mid-body design
At least one two-tone paint option
A weak green paint option
40 kWh base
60 kWh option - but not sure it's available at launch
S, SV, SL price points similar to current prices
ProPilot option - single lane highway driving
ePedal - very strong regen, single pedal driving (is this an option or standard?)
--
Things we don't know:
Range
Price for 60 kWh upgrade
Charging Speed
Availability for 60 kWh option
General Availability
TMS

 

[internalaudit]

I still think Nissan should announce an estimate delivery period for the 60 kWh version. It may sway some rejected/dejected (financing concerns like high interest auto loan rates, decided it's way over budget, etc.) US Tesla Model 3 buyers that aren't attracted to the coolness factor and just practicality with no much use for the SCN.

I'm in Canada with a Late 2018 expected delivery date but it would be nice to know whether I should be checking the Leaf out once it's available at dealerships and stay active in this discussion board. 40 kWh is not going to do for my household's needs.

 

[OrientExpress]

In the end, I suspect that the 60kWh version will probably be shipping about the same time that the Model 3 starts achieving volume production.

Notice how quiet Tesla is on their Model 3 volumes. Now they are saying that "customer" production won't start until January. The current units they have made for employees and investors are essentially pilot line cars to work out the bugs of production, and actually get the manufacturing line built.

I bet there are going to be a lot of Model 3 reservation holders converting to the LEAF once they see it.

 

[alozzy]

It's pretty easy to get a 24 kWh Leaf to go 80 miles in favorable conditions - double that is 160 miles. However, the coefficient of drag will likely reduce air drag considerably so, at least at highway speeds, I would hope there would be at least a 10% range increase.

Range should be closer to 180 miles, perhaps a little more.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I bet there are going to be a lot of Model 3 reservation holders converting to the LEAF once they see it.

And once TSLA opens the model 3 configurator, and they can clearly see that waiting many months or over a year for a comparably-equipped model 3 will cost them close to twice what a LEAF (with earlier availability, to most) will cost them.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Wow, you're a real ray of sunshine. Everything he posted lines up with what has been rumored. If he's wrong, he's wrong, but I don't think he is.

Not trying to be a ray of sunshine, I'm trying to be realistic.

How do you "know" any of the bolded statements? Due to the "leak"? As likely as they may be, we don't really know any of those things.

You are right! That's why I used the "weasel phrase" -think we know-

Fair enough. Count me out of that "we". I've seen the rumors. I would love them to be true. I am just not willing to give Nissan the benefit of the doubt at this point. I'd rather wait until Tuesday to see for myself.