LEAF advisory group

[DaveinOlyWA]

During the tour of the battery plant we were advised that the tweaks (which are ongoing ALL the time) were to specifically address heat tolerance. the casing was changed from a 100% enclosed 2012 case to a much lighter and vented 2013 case.

I'm not sure why these tweaks would be needed when we heard so much "Nissan-Normal(TM)" last summer. Could it be that they were pumping us with bullshit then?

Yes, it's a rhetorical question.

I sincerely hope that THIS summer, we don't have to continue with the bullshit stories.

ok, my bad; let me clarify. the current tweaks are aimed at heat tolerance. before, the tweaks were aimed at cell uniformity. there is a curing process that is supposed to enhance the uniformity of the electrolyte which in turn, helps to create a uniform distribution thru out the many many layers of the module. This allows better balancing of cells, charge distribution AND even heat generation which due to relatively large surface areas (which is why they are rectangular, large and thin) was supposed to allow heat radiation. this prevented localized hot spots within the module itself. also the AESC guy did not say it directly, he implied that this goal was met very well. This is probably the reason why some (me) will see a much better than "20% in 5 years" degradation and may also account for the PIA poll where 2012 owners are claiming no loss after many miles while others like me are seeing 5-10%.

the heat radiation was not accomplished well enough in the warmer areas. so they reduced the casing on the modules to make it thinner to create a bit more space between the modules in the pack (my assumptions) and vented the modules. they did say they are investigating chilled forced air thru the pack. Obviously this will cause a reduction in range and it appeared to me that they were still weighing the best way to go about this route (my assumption again) or at least it sounded like they did not have a timeline for this in place yet.

One of the questions was why did we not take waste heat from the pack to help with cabin heat. the reason? the uniformity of the pack lowered heat production meaning charging efficiency should be high and that also means that the heat generated is not that high. So in even relatively mild temps like mine, there is no heat to gather or at least not enough to justify the power to get it into the cabin.

With temps in just the mid 30's to low 40's, I am only seeing 4 TBs even with 2-3 short QC sessions.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

....

Starting a new thread is probably prudent, too. Good idea. <<snip, snip>>

Let me see if this works for pictures: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fk9hikj87rn6y9r/Y_kcpwfN1k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Darell: Those are some neat photos of the sleek QC design. Is that all there is to Nissan's QC pedestal? I notice that Blink has a separate "power box" usually situated near their two-hosed pedestals. Same for Eaton/TEPCO and their bulky pedestal and power box. Is Nissan the same but the "power box" is not in view?

not sure which picture you are talking about but there were several types of Nissan chargers and the QC integrated the power box and is the size of like an Eaton charger which is about the size of a refrigerator.

**edit**
ok, i see the pix you are referring to and sorry but guessing the pix above is a more truer representation of the real size of the QC. The other pix's were in front of the Yokohama World headquarters and guessing most of the power box is simply below ground.

 

[Phoenix]

Pictures 1 and 2 of Darell's link to Drop Box. Is that all the equipment represented by the sleek pedestals? Or, is there a "power conditioning box" off screen? Your pic of QC--not so sleek. AV salesman kept telling me the pedestal was all that was needed for a QC installation.

 

[surfingslovak]

My postings are based on facts that come from my contacts within Nissan and the industry, not on speculation, and that my lay friend is a fact.

OK, then please substantiate your posting about the electrolyte change and its relation to the NEC story.

 

[darelldd]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fk9hikj87rn6y9r/Y_kcpwfN1k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Darell: Those are some neat photos of the sleek QC design. Is that all there is to Nissan's QC pedestal? I notice that Blink has a separate "power box" usually situated near their two-hosed pedestals. Same for Eaton/TEPCO and their bulky pedestal and power box. Is Nissan the same but the "power box" is not in view?

I slipped another photo into the list of a LEAF quick charging... with solar assist. The pedestal is a different design. I don't know if anything was hidden somewhere, but what you see is all that was visible in any of these locations. The two in front of NISSAN GHQ are definitely sleek! All of their on-site QC's are available to anybody with a compatible inlet (as you can see from the Mitsubishi charging right in front of the entrance to Global HQ!). I didn't get a chance to talk to anybody about the QC units, so I only know what I saw.

I see Dave posted a HUGE freaking photo of the same thing...

 

[surfingslovak]

the heat radiation was not accomplished well enough in the warmer areas. so they reduced the casing on the modules to make it thinner to create a bit more space between the modules in the pack (my assumptions) and vented the modules. they did say they are investigating chilled forced air thru the pack. Obviously this will cause a reduction in range and it appeared to me that they were still weighing the best way to go about this route (my assumption again) or at least it sounded like they did not have a timeline for this in place yet.

Interesting, good to hear. This will help with cell aging and dissipation of operational heat. Would you know if they have addressed calendar aging due to elevated ambient temps? Through a change to the anode or some other changes in the cell?

 

[OrientExpress]

My postings are based on facts that come from my contacts within Nissan and the industry, not on speculation, and that my lay friend is a fact.

OK, then please substantiate your posting about the electrolyte change and its relation to the NEC story.

I'm not sure that I know what you are talking about.

 

[surfingslovak]

My postings are based on facts that come from my contacts within Nissan and the industry, not on speculation, and that my lay friend is a fact.

OK, then please substantiate your posting about the electrolyte change and its relation to the NEC story.

I'm not sure that I know what you are talking about.

My first comment was related to this, and I quoted it above as well.

They also tweaked the chemistry which OE posted a link about NEC that showed it could make for a more robust pack.

 

[OrientExpress]

My first comment was related to this, and I quoted it above as well.

They also tweaked the chemistry which OE posted a link about NEC that showed it could make for a more robust pack.

I still don't know what you are talking about. This looks like someone is attributing a quote to me, but that seems to be hearsy, as I do't recall it, and can't find anything about it when I do a search on my postings. So just provide the link, and let see what it is.

 

[surfingslovak]

So just provide the link, and let see what it is.

I believe that it was this story. It was posted several times before, most recently by ydnas7, a LEAF owner from Brisbane. LEAFfan could you please clarify?

http://www.nec.co.jp/press/en/1110/1702.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[OrientExpress]

So just provide the link, and let see what it is.

I believe that it was this story. It was posted several times before, most recently by ydnas7, a LEAF owner from Brisbane. LEAFfan could you please clarify?

http://www.nec.co.jp/press/en/1110/1702.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the first time I have seen this article, and have never commented on this on this or any other forum to my knowledge. If you can provide a link to my comments about this, by all means do so, but as it sits, I can't comment, much less clarify something that I am seeing for the first time. Perhaps you are confused?

 

[JPWhite]

With temps in just the mid 30's to low 40's, I am only seeing 4 TBs even with 2-3 short QC sessions.

We have had low temps in Nashville until recently. 4 TB's for weeks on end. I quick charged last week. The QC behaved differently at these lower temps. It took longer (maybe 35 minutes) but it got much closer to the stated target % than I've seen during the summer.

After the QC it still displayed 4 temp bars and I drove about 15 miles at highway speeds and observed 5 temp bars when I parked at my destination (this was even in sub freezing temps). It was back to 4 TB's when I drove away later after being parked for 2-3 hours.

So driving and QC'ing then driving again does seem to increase the battery temp from my casual observations.

 

[RegGuheert]

Unless Nissan does a major tweak such as replacing the electrolyte with something completely different then they will have to provide forced ventilation of the pack.. anything helps.

I think any tweaks to the existing chemistry will be minor out of the necessity to maintain the extremely high quality level that AESC has achieved to date. All the world is particularly sensitive to Li-ion battery failures right now and Nissan has a decent track record on quality, to date. Not so great on durability in hot climates. Any change carries a certain amount of risk so I don't expect we will see any step changes without them moving to a new technology.

Again, I think the current tweaks are focused on cost reduction. (BTW, Dave is right we were told there may be improvements in stability in the heat, but I had a side conversation which makes me believe that goal might have been secondary.) Likely they are doing things like removing the quantity of certain expensive materials like metals knowing this will slightly increase resistance, but perhaps the lower peak torque of the 2013 motor means they can get away with higher battery resistance.

I also expect that as AESC starts to get back batteries from customer LEAFs, they will be able to understand better how the batteries are holding up in the real world. At that point, they may be able to remove some margins from the design and achieve better energy density, etc.

Finally, one thing I learned on the trip that I didn't previously know is that the battery manufacturing plant in TN is 100% Nissan. They apparently license the battery technology from AESC (which is majority-owned by Nissan). I'm sure this is common knowledge, but I was surprised to learn it.

 

[surfingslovak]

Perhaps you are confused?

I clearly referenced a quote by LEAFfan, where he stated that he read a comment from you about NEC and electrolyte change. I have already asked him to explain, perhaps his memory is hazy. And since you made direct comments about my ability to form clear judgement and opinion, let me quote what I said above for clarity. Perhaps it will be better understood on a second reading. And with that, I'm signing off from this thread, I have real work to do.

Yes, but we don't know if it's related to this particular change Nissan implemented. There is a chance of that, yes. As an aside, I would take most of the things OE says about the battery with a grain salt. That is, if he didn't get them straight from Nissan, which he didn't, in this case.

I think any tweaks to the existing chemistry will be minor out of the necessity to maintain the extremely high quality level that AESC has achieved to date. All the world is particularly sensitive to Li-ion battery failures right now and Nissan has a decent track record on quality, to date. Not so great on durability in hot climates. Any change carries a certain amount of risk so I don't expect we will see any step changes without them moving to a new technology.

That would make sense to me too, thanks for explaining that.

 

[evchels]

Again, I think the current tweaks are focused on cost reduction. (BTW, Dave is right we were told there may be improvements in stability in the heat, but I had a side conversation which makes me believe that goal might have been secondary.)

This has always been my understanding as well (cost first, other benefits secondary for this particular update) from both our visit to AESC and conversations with Andy Palmer and other Nissan folks before that. But no question, they are also considering what tweaks come next.

Also worth noting that the main "AESC guy" Dave mentioned was the President of the company.

 

[KJD]

evchels,
did Nissan say anything about a member loyalty program to spur sales on the 2013 LEAF ?

 

[JPWhite]

evchels,
did Nissan say anything about a member loyalty program to spur sales on the 2013 LEAF ?

Good question. I think existing LEAF owners will be a good source of future sales if they can offer reasonable deals. If I can get a good deal I'll trade for sure. Kinda like trading up your cell phone every couple of years

Though judging by failure to sell low mileage LEAF's coming off lease on eBay, I'm not holding my breath.....

http://bit.ly/VolpP1

It didn't sell or get even one bid at < $19,000

 

[evchels]

evchels,
did Nissan say anything about a member loyalty program to spur sales on the 2013 LEAF ?

A similar but broader topic did come up in a discussion with a few execs- not specifically just a traditional owner loyalty program, but an overall referral/reward plan. It was primarily a question of what we thought of such an idea, so I don't have anything specific to report about whether it's any more serious or further along than that. As you might imagine, we wholeheartedly endorsed it and gave a few ideas, and I've noted it as a subject for us to explore further with them.

 

[OrientExpress]

Perhaps you are confused?

I clearly referenced a quote by LEAFfan, where he stated that he read a comment from you about NEC and electrolyte change. I have already asked him to explain, perhaps his memory is hazy. And since you made direct comments about my ability to form clear judgement and opinion, let me quote what I said above for clarity. Perhaps it will be better understood on a second reading. And with that, I'm signing off from this thread, I have real work to do.

Before you go off half cocked with unverifiable claims again, I would encourage you to do better legwork and to take more time to do your research about issues such as these in the future. As far as the veracity of your judgement and opinion, you are your best reference.

 

[OrientExpress]

evchels,
did Nissan say anything about a member loyalty program to spur sales on the 2013 LEAF ?

A similar but broader topic did come up in a discussion with a few execs- not specifically just a traditional owner loyalty program, but an overall referral/reward plan. It was primarily a question of what we thought of such an idea, so I don't have anything specific to report about whether it's any more serious or further along than that. As you might imagine, we wholeheartedly endorsed it and gave a few ideas, and I've noted it as a subject for us to explore further with them.

I would second Chelsea's comments. Keeping current Nissan EV customers future Nissan EV customers is high on the Nissan EV sales radar. SF BayLEAFs has also provided Nissan with several ideas on how to bring this to fruition, and we hope to see these ideas brought into reality in 2013.