LEAF advisory group

[philipscoggins]

Almost no-one asks relevant questions. They are dismissive, not interested.

It took me about a month to get used to my LEAF before I was driving down the interstate (65mph) smiling to myself saying "I can't believe they did it! I've got an electric car & it's not a modified golf cart! It's a real car! And it rocks!"

Still dig my LEAF

Did order a WattsLeft meter from Turbo3 (aka Jim) yesterday, knowing true battery charge is a good thing.

Philip

 

[dhanson865]

evchels,
did Nissan say anything about a member loyalty program to spur sales on the 2013 LEAF ?

Good question. I think existing LEAF owners will be a good source of future sales if they can offer reasonable deals. If I can get a good deal I'll trade for sure. Kinda like trading up your cell phone every couple of years

Though judging by failure to sell low mileage LEAF's coming off lease on eBay, I'm not holding my breath.....

http://bit.ly/VolpP1

It didn't sell or get even one bid at < $19,000

It's black (absorbs more heat) and was used in FL (hot and salty) so the battery is likely degraded more than average and the body may be started on rust issues.

I certainly wouldn't be jumping on that combo even at a lower price.

 

[dhanson865]

Sure my 3 simple ideas to improve are.
Also after thinking they are really serious I added 2 more ideas and emailed new VP Billy so he can lead them if they are really interested.

1- use the solar panels to run a few muffin type fans to circulate air when the car is parked. It's an easy way to move air and that is always much cooler than the heat the builds up. Even the liquid cooled cars don't help their batteries when parked and not plugged in but a LEAF in the sun could help. It could even run off the started battery for 2 to 5 minutes when you park. Just to move some heat off the battery.

If you're talking about running a few tiny fans off of the existing solar panel on the LEAF to circulate cabin air, that's not going to help anything to cool the traction battery. It's the scorched pavement that's going to cook up the traction battery from underneath, not the cabin temperature that's baking up the battery from above. Even if they redesign the traction battery casing to force more airflow to it, when you're looking at 115F ambient temperature, passive air cooling doesn't help because the ambient air is already just as hot. You need active cooling using AC compression cooling technology to truly reduce the temperature. Same analogy why air flow in our home alone during AZ summer is not enough and we MUST have AC to cool our home.

You are grossly misusing the terms passive cooling and active cooling.

Passive cooling means NO FANS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_cooling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This can include

Thermal Mass to average the effects of temperature swings (conduction of heat)
Heat Sinks to allow radiation and convection cooling (even if the convection is minor in a passive role)

A non electrical method of transferring heat in a passive heat sink that is common in computers now is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


You seem to think passive cooling won't help at 115f. Consider that passive heat sinks are used in the computer industry for cooling parts in 60c ambient which is 140f and they are often doing this with chips whose surface temp is exceeding 80c (176f).

From your writing I have to assume you'd be greatly surprised how well passive cooling changes could help even in a car above 100f.

Personally I'd be asking why they don't run a heat pipe from the battery case edge to either the car frame or a rear quarter panel and use a preexisting large chunk of steel or aluminum as a secondary or tertiary heat sink for the battery pack. It would cost money and require a path and likely structural changes oh and it works both ways / all the time so it'd reduce temps in cold climates so it can't be put on all LEAFs that leave the factory, it'd have to be a hot weather package component.

Hmm also have to make sure you run the heat pipe high enough to be above the densest part of the pavement heat or a long day in the sun would transmit through the heat pipe to the battery instead of from the battery to cooler objects. So now that I think about it I'd route the pipe to a vertical pillar on the side of the car (the roof collects heat as well so it'd be best to link to a part somewhere in the middle between the roof and the underside of the car).

 

[RegGuheert]

1) That's crazy
2) What are you going to do when you run out of juice
3) How are you going to take a road trip
4) That's crazy (variation)
5) That's strange (variation)
6) Too early, unproven technology, etc
7) I didn't know you were a hippie (honestly, I have heard this a few times)

Almost no-one asks relevant questions. They are dismissive, not interested.

Interestingly, I've never gotten ANY of those responses, at least not to my face. People typically want to know how far it can go on a charge and how long it takes to recharge, which I consider to be well-considered questions aimed at trying to determine if the car will work for them. This is true even though I also live in a very conservative area. Sadly, however, most around here commute too far for the LEAF to work for them.

I suspect living in an oil patch may have a lot to do with the attitudes which you hear from others.

 

[RegGuheert]

Personally I'd be asking why they don't run a heat pipe from the battery case edge to either the car frame or a rear quarter panel and use a preexisting large chunk of steel or aluminum as a secondary or tertiary heat sink for the battery pack. It would cost money and require a path and likely structural changes oh and it works both ways / all the time so it'd reduce temps in cold climates so it can't be put on all LEAFs that leave the factory, it'd have to be a hot weather package component.

I think you've answered your own question: heat pipes are expensive. The other reason is that they have already managed to achieve a fairly low thermal resistance to ambient, so the rise from ambient temperatures is small. We don't know the exact number, but I suspect it is below 10F. As you try to drive that number down, the cost goes up significantly.

I tend to wonder which modules lose capacity first. Is it the vertical ones under the back seats or the horizontal ones under the front seats? I tend to think that the top module under the front seats are in the worst thermal situation, since they do not have a great path for conduction down to the metal baseplate. OTOH, it also seems to me that the modules in the vertical condition would operate with a higher temperature at the top and a lower temperature at the bottom. This would seem to set up a capacity gradient across the cells over time as they age. Of course it would be best if the entire cell could age at the same rate.

We may never know the answers to these questions, but maybe Nissan will learn more about what is going on over time and can manage to minimize any hotspots that may exist.

 

[evchels]

Chelsea, Is the advisory group now all filled? I would like to volunteer for it to represent the desert heat issues and how they can be improved.

Hi Jim- yes, the US slots are all filled. I will be adding a few more members from specific international locations as we move forward. Also, this global group is not tasked with specifically addressing the desert degradation issue from a remedy standpoint. I have, however, asked Tony and Phil to help me continue ensuring this issue (and our related questions) get attention from Nissan.

But again, anyone is welcome to submit feedback for either group here or elsewhere, and both I and Nissan have received the suggestions you mention.

(Also, I didn't track who did it publicly or privately, but I was thrilled to see that many of the town hall attendees expressed appreciation to the Nissan folks for coming out and starting the conversation, even though more is needed.)

 

[KJD]

But again, anyone is welcome to submit feedback for either group here or elsewhere, and both I and Nissan have received the suggestions you mention.

OK I will take you up on that offer. Nissan says that they want to increase LEAF sales for 2013 and I think that is great.

The first place they should target is counties that have air quality problems. Salt Lake County had 22 red air alert days in January, one of the worst months ever. This weekend the forecast is Red Air again. http://www.airquality.utah.gov/aqp/slc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the past year I have been trying to tell everyone I can about how great the EV driving experience is and most people are interested.

The biggest concern people have is what happens if you run out of juice in a LEAF, where do you fill it up at? Nissan has said that they want to install 600 QC stations in USA, well how about targeting places with poor air quality like SLC.

 

[evnow]

I'm not sure why these tweaks would be needed when we heard so much "Nissan-Normal(TM)" last summer. Could it be that they were pumping us with bullshit then?

Yes, it's a rhetorical question.

I sincerely hope that THIS summer, we don't have to continue with the bullshit stories.

Yes - I'm yet to hear a clear explanation from Nissan about the battery degradation.

May be my expectations are high - given how any statement would be turned into a cash cow by some lawyers.

 

[jstack6]

dhanson,

1-Moving air that is not cooled can help quite a bit. On the prius, Toyota did that for the 2004 and newer models and reduced battery problems by a huge factor, previously they have a .05 failure rate and just some air movement dropped it to .005.
When the solar car group from http://www.solarcarchallenge.org/challenge/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; High School can thru Phoenix and we treated them to lunch some of the students stayed behind and continuously spayed water and wiped their spectro labs solar panels. When I asked why they didn't stop and go to lunch with us they said the panels crack and fail in the heat if they don't keep air or water over them to cool them. They said while driving the air keeps them cooler and they never crack, but if they park they fail within a day. These were the most efficent paneles like they use in space.
2- By not charging your battery to 100% or topping off you extend the life of any battery. In the heat it's even more important. So changing the auto charge from 80% or 100% with an 85,90,95% gives to lots more room to take it easy on your batteries. It is good for all batteries even in Washington State or Michigan but can really help in hot areas.

So they are not perfect fixes, just steps to help the life and capacity for all LEAF owners. Lots of small things can add up to even a 5% increase in life and capcity and that is not bad at low cost.
It seems you dismiss these small step to fast and I hope we try them and measure the results. Let's no overlook some small ways to improve the heat issue.

 

[aminorjourney]

I just want to say THANK YOU to the advisory board for taking time out of their lives to head to Japan to do this

Okay, yes, it wasn't exactly hard to get put on a plane and fly over, and I assume they were recompensed appropriately for lost earnings from their day jobs....

But taking out time to do stuff like this, even if you get no financial impact, is tough.

I know that both Jeff and Chels seemed very tired when they returned to their respective homes after the trip. Jet lag is a bitch.

And of course, all the families and coworkers of these folks who let them take the trip too!

Just to say... we appreciate ya

 

[Volusiano]

Even if Nissan takes these small steps as suggested and add circulating fans or heat sink or whatever, I still wouldn't buy another LEAF again with these tiny incremental improvements if I live in AZ. The bottom line is that AZ has EXTREME heat, and extreme heat requires extreme solution (chilled liquid cooling). Tiny haphazard incremental solutions may help a little bit, but is nowhere near enough to fix the problem. You either fix it or you don't. There's no half way about it. So why bother?

The same analogy I'd make to people living in AZ with chilled air conditioning. Do you see anybody living in AZ in the summer with just ceiling fans alone? Or convection cooling? No, people want chilled air conditioning, because extreme heat requires extreme solution.

Now if they can tweak the chemistry to become heat resistant, then that's another story. But it's been proven that the current chemistry can't survive the AZ heat.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I just want to say THANK YOU to the advisory board for taking time out of their lives to head to Japan to do this

Okay, yes, it wasn't exactly hard to get put on a plane and fly over, and I assume they were recompensed appropriately for lost earnings from their day jobs....

But taking out time to do stuff like this, even if you get no financial impact, is tough.

I know that both Jeff and Chels seemed very tired when they returned to their respective homes after the trip. Jet lag is a bitch.

And of course, all the families and coworkers of these folks who let them take the trip too!

Just to say... we appreciate ya

Thank you Nikki but the only compensation we received was a very enriching experience and imho, it was well worth the week off without pay. Wouldnt have traded the experience for anything

 

[thankyouOB]

it is ridiculous that Nissan has enlisted you in this without any compensation.

did someone at Nissan trot out the idea that if you were paid, it would corrupt you?
as Jesse Unruh, the famous CA politician, said of lobbyists: "If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, screw their women and then vote against them, you have no business being up here."

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

it is ridiculous that Nissan has enlisted you in this without any compensation.

did someone at Nissan trot out the idea that if you were paid, it would corrupt you?
as Jesse Unruh, the famous CA politician, said of lobbyists: "If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, screw their women and then vote against them, you have no business being up here."

i wont speak for anyone else in the group, but I felt that I was well compensated. I was flown to Japan, business class at GREAT expense. Put up in a very nice hotel, fed at some pretty expensive restaurants and taken on a tour of Tokyo all at their expense... but that pails in comparison to the degree of access we were afforded to the inner circle at Nissan.

Now, maybe I was led to believe they were sincere when they were only trying to be polite, but that would really make no sense at all. We are only there to give them advice which is pretty much what we all do here at home and on this board.

I doubt that I can really express an adequate description of the atmosphere we experienced. I very much felt welcome and accepted as a part of Nissan that will be vital in future in helping them effectively market their EV portfolio. I went there as an outsider looking in. When I left, that feeling was long gone.

Now, this trip was only an introduction and although we had some pretty good discussions, it is still only the beginning. We have a long way to go.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
From the pics that I saw Dave post, it looks like he had an incredible trip.

FWIW, Dave, I and about ~50 other Prius enthusiasts (mostly Priuschatters) were invited to the unveiling of the 2010 Prius in Detroit in January 09. Our trip was paid for by Toyota and we weren't compensated beyond that but I don't think a single person who accepted was disappointed w/their experience nor sought any compensation. We were all THRILLED to be invited, have our trip paid for, to hear the announcement as it was made, have access to the vehicle the evening of (months before it was available for sale), to meet its chief engineer besides meeting other folks that we'd only "known" online.

I was even out a bit of $ out of pocket due to having to put myself up in a hotel in Colorado due to a weather delay that caused me to miss a connecting flight on the return flight. Despite that, I didn't seek any compensation from our hosts. It was all good and WELL worth it.

 

[darelldd]

FWIW, Dave, I and about ~50 other Prius enthusiasts (mostly Priuschatters) were invited to the unveiling of the 2010 Prius in Detroit in January 09.

Darell might have been there too.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

^^^
From the pics that I saw Dave post, it looks like he had an incredible trip.

FWIW, Dave, I and about ~50 other Prius enthusiasts (mostly Priuschatters) were invited to the unveiling of the 2010 Prius in Detroit in January 09. Our trip was paid for by Toyota and we weren't compensated beyond that but I don't think a single person who accepted was disappointed w/their experience nor sought any compensation. We were all THRILLED to be invited, have our trip paid for, to hear the announcement as it was made, have access to the vehicle the evening of (months before it was available for sale), to meet its chief engineer besides meeting other folks that we'd only "known" online.

I was even out a bit of $ out of pocket due to having to put myself up in a hotel in Colorado due to a weather delay that caused me to miss a connecting flight on the return flight. Despite that, I didn't seek any compensation from our hosts. It was all good and WELL worth it.

Ya, that was a great trip as well. Toyota actually gave us cash to use to buy meals and you "could" eat cheap and pocket some of the money which I would have if I hadnt spent so much on souvenirs. And it was easy to eat cheap because they provided food for all the events so only had a chance to eat a couple meals outside the planned events.

But this trip was so much more intense. Darrel was also at the Detroit trip and as great a time that was, this was longer by a few days but so much more content was involved. We traveled all over the area and the stuff we saw was literally mind blowing. At Nissan's Tech Center we were not allowed to bring in cameras or cellphones but it was a trip. The entrance takes you into a tunnel onto the other side which was a compound completely encircled by mountains and hills. only way to see in was by satellite or helicopter. It was a very cool experience. I would not hesitate a second to do it again.

 

[cwerdna]

FWIW, Dave, I and about ~50 other Prius enthusiasts (mostly Priuschatters) were invited to the unveiling of the 2010 Prius in Detroit in January 09.

Darell might have been there too.

Oh yeah, that's right! Forgot.

Yeah, Toyota fed us part of the time and they did (surprisingly to me) give us some cash to cover the meals they weren't providing us. But overall, it was an awesome trip. I would totally go again w/a similar arrangement if they decide to invite us back for the next gen.

 

[cwerdna]

1) That's crazy
2) What are you going to do when you run out of juice
3) How are you going to take a road trip
4) That's crazy (variation)
5) That's strange (variation)
6) Too early, unproven technology, etc
7) I didn't know you were a hippie (honestly, I have heard this a few times)

Almost no-one asks relevant questions. They are dismissive, not interested.

Interestingly, I've never gotten ANY of those responses, at least not to my face. People typically want to know how far it can go on a charge and how long it takes to recharge, which I consider to be well-considered questions aimed at trying to determine if the car will work for them. This is true even though I also live in a very conservative area. Sadly, however, most around here commute too far for the LEAF to work for them.

I suspect living in an oil patch may have a lot to do with the attitudes which you hear from others.

I think the oil patch and what http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/31/autos/detroit-car-sales-states.fortune/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; points out are both the issue. I found out about the above article from http://priuschat.com/threads/where-detroit-can-and-cant-sell-cars.121613/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (the poster lives in Alabama, a red state). In comparison, the Prius (family) was the top selling vehicle in CA in 2012.

 

[mwalsh]

Got to be honest...this group seems good for Nissan; great for the participants; and maybe good for future LEAF owners. But not so much use to us in the near term. Ever even. I mean, what have we gotten out of a week's discussion in Opamma, other than a few photos to be envious of and the sketchiest of details (and I did wait a week for the participants to "recover" and provide more information before posting this).

Personally I've no confidence in the enterprise, though I wish it's members well and hope they have a great time at Nissan's expense.