Leaf Heater

[evnow]

I'd not feel safe with aftermarket space heaters in the car. I think we should be careful here.

 

[edatoakrun]

I googled "12v space heater" and got lots of hits for very inexpensive portable ceramic heaters with fans, that only appear to draw 150 watts or so...they are marketed as car auxiliary heaters, truck cab heaters etc. I know it seems kind of kludgy, but I wonder if for a relatively mild climate like SoCal that still has some chilly (for us) mornings, would such a thing plugged into the accessory outlet be a sensible alternative to the 3KW sucked up by the car's own heating system, just to take the edge off early in the drive? Alternatively what about a relatively low wattage 120v space heater (eg 500 watts or so) of the sort you'd typically put under your desk at work, on a timer to warm up the cabin before you head out as the car itself will do, but without firing up the EVSE at full load or draining the traction battery at what works out to a rate of about a mile of range every 5 minutes?

Remember you are talking about 150 watts at only 12 volts.

That said, I have used the cheap ($10-12$ from Harbor Freight) plug in 12 v "car heaters" for several winters, in various vehicles. Given the small output it might better described as a "hand (or other anatomical part) warmer", rather than a "space" heater.

But it does produce (some) instant heat, and has never blown it's own fuse, or that of my vehicle's 12 v outlet.

If I had a R A inducing winter drive, I would carry it with me in my LEAF.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Putting a 12V heater in the car is dangerous, and pointless as the output will do little to heat the car. Use the factory heater less, it will work better. The best addd is heated seat elements, this is far more efficient and effective. 150 watts of heat is plain silly.

 

[edatoakrun]

Putting a 12V heater in the car is dangerous, and pointless as the output will do little to heat the car. Use the factory heater less, it will work better. The best addd is heated seat elements, this is far more efficient and effective. 150 watts of heat is plain silly.

Dangerous? How?

Pointless?

Not entirely.

In addition to warming your hands or feet, you can place a small 12 heater on the dash and get some defrost/defog function, long before your coolant heats up.

I think turning off the heater/defroster to extend LEAF range, as some have suggested, could be dangerous.

 

[Ohmie]

Does anyone know how the cabin of the Think City EV is heated? Is it the same as in the LEAF?

I doubt it...

You see pictures of the Think City driving around the 'frozen tundra' of Norway all the time (saw one there myself, in December 2009 (bbrrr!)), but the range-limiting issues of heating the cabin never seem to come up! Designers of the Think City must have thought about this and designed a system to deal with winters in Scandinavia...

 

[Norway]

A 150W heater does "next to nothing" as regards heating up a car. When it is cold you need about 5000 W (5 kW) initially, and then 1-3 kW afterwards.

Whereas it is only the number of watts which matters (whether supplied at 12V or 230V doestn't matter for the heat output), in fact it is completely impractical to supply enough current for a 5000 W heater at 12V. You would need over 400 A (!) continuous, and electrical cables of 100 mm2 at least. Much better with a 5000 W heater designed to be used at the traction battery voltage.

As far as I know, the first Th!nks had gas/diesel heaters, and the newer use electrical power from the traction batteries.

 

[Norway]

Does anyone know how the cabin of the Think City EV is heated? Is it the same as in the LEAF?

I doubt it...

You see pictures of the Think City driving around the 'frozen tundra' of Norway all the time (saw one there myself, in December 2009 (bbrrr!)), but the range-limiting issues of heating the cabin never seem to come up! Designers of the Think City must have thought about this and designed a system to deal with winters in Scandinavia...

I drive around Norway in an EV, but it has a Eberspächer diesel heater, which heats the cooling (!) water, and is also used for heating the cabin. It produces 5 kW, and is sufficient.

 

[EVDRIVER]

A 150W heater does "next to nothing" as regards heating up a car. When it is cold you need about 5000 W (5 kW) initially, and then 1-3 kW afterwards.

Whereas it is only the number of watts which matters (whether supplied at 12V or 230V doestn't matter for the heat output), in fact it is completely impractical to supply enough current for a 5000 W heater at 12V. You would need over 400 A (!) continuous, and electrical cables of 100 mm2 at least. Much better with a 5000 W heater designed to be used at the traction battery voltage.

As far as I know, the first Th!nks had gas/diesel heaters, and the newer use electrical power from the traction batteries.

And it does not roll around under the brake or hit you in an accident.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Does anyone know how the cabin of the Think City EV is heated? Is it the same as in the LEAF?

I doubt it...

You see pictures of the Think City driving around the 'frozen tundra' of Norway all the time (saw one there myself, in December 2009 (bbrrr!)), but the range-limiting issues of heating the cabin never seem to come up! Designers of the Think City must have thought about this and designed a system to deal with winters in Scandinavia...

I owned a Think and a PIVCO, the model before the Think. The PIVCO used a kerosene heater with the tank in the rear. The early thinks had a 5-6kw ish electric heater element in the dash, it would heat up in about 3 seconds and supply more than enough heat. The water-based tank and heat exchanger on the LEAF (and conversions) is an easy solution because they use an existing heater core and just add the tank, pump and hoses. Unfortunately it requires quite a bit of energy to get that heat to the cabin, wastes space, adds quite a bit of relative weight, cost, and extra parts and coolant that can leak or have issues. I can't believe Nissan did not come up with a better solution for the heater and even entire climate system, not exactly advanced but more of a conversion application.

Nissan should have made heated seats standard or ann option on every Leaf as this is an efficient way to heat critical surfaces and reduce the extra need for heating the air. The cost is also very low.

 

[EricH]

A 150W heater does "next to nothing" as regards heating up a car. When it is cold you need about 5000 W (5 kW) initially, and then 1-3 kW afterwards.

Whereas it is only the number of watts which matters (whether supplied at 12V or 230V doestn't matter for the heat output), in fact it is completely impractical to supply enough current for a 5000 W heater at 12V. You would need over 400 A (!) continuous, and electrical cables of 100 mm2 at least. Much better with a 5000 W heater designed to be used at the traction battery voltage.

As far as I know, the first Th!nks had gas/diesel heaters, and the newer use electrical power from the traction batteries.

My Think!City had electric resistance heating (picture a toaster with a fan behind it), as well as electric coils embedded throught the entire front windshield and rear hatchback - and possibly the side mirrors as well. However, there was no A/C in the Think, which was no fun during Los Angeles summers.

I expect the Leaf will have a heat pump setup (basically a reversible A/C that blows the hot air inside in winter) with an electric-resistance backup for extreme cold; the heat pump is more efficient than electric-resistance, but can't sustain large temperature differences (say, if you want it 70 degrees in the car but the ambient temp is 45).

 

[DaveEV]

I expect the Leaf will have a heat pump setup (basically a reversible A/C that blows the hot air inside in winter) with an electric-resistance backup for extreme cold; the heat pump is more efficient than electric-resistance, but can't sustain large temperature differences (say, if you want it 70 degrees in the car but the ambient temp is 45).

No heat pump in the LEAF. I think the Volt might have one?

 

[EVDRIVER]

I expect the Leaf will have a heat pump setup (basically a reversible A/C that blows the hot air inside in winter) with an electric-resistance backup for extreme cold; the heat pump is more efficient than electric-resistance, but can't sustain large temperature differences (say, if you want it 70 degrees in the car but the ambient temp is 45).[/quote]


There is nothing to expect, if you read the posts in this thread you will see what the Leaf uses. All the detailed LEAF specs are no longer a mystery and the repair manuals are available as well. A somewhat basic stop-gap heating design, the same one used on conversions.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the heater works ok but like a regular car, you have to run it a while before it heats up. what i do is turn it on, run med low fan at 90º until it warms up, then turn it down to 70º and it works ok.

i did get a 12 volt seat heater/vibrator i might try. but it was in the mid 30's the other day and i survived it.

all in all, the car seems to retain heat very well. its very airtight and i am not sure that is a good thing for a new car, but we shall see

 

[Electric4Me]

Anyone know how hot the motor/inverter/charger coolant gets?

If they put in active cooling for those parts there must be a reason. Obviously they don't put out nearly as much waste heat as an ICE but if the temp of that water is higher than the setpoint of the cabin then you got some potential "free" heating, and as a mod it would be simple to install some extra tubing, thermometer and a 3-way valve.
=Smidge=

Since I suspect that the motor/controller doesn't pit out much heat (it IS efficient after all), this made me think of another way the Leaf will save me money: every time I walk back into my garage a little while after I parked the car the garage has gotten warm or worse. I cringe at the extra load this puts onto my garage freezer!

 

[modimum]

Volvo is putting one in its C30 Electric apparently.

I would settle for heated seats. I have those in the Mini, and I don't use the heater at all. The seats work great, require much less energy.

 

[Herm]

God you people whine about a bit of cold ..get a 90w 12V heated electric jacket, and perhaps a set of gloves also.. designed for motorcycle riders.

http://www.12voltclothing.com/

 

[derkraut]

God you people whine about a bit of cold ..get a 90w 12V heated electric jacket, and perhaps a set of gloves also.. designed for motorcycle riders.

http://www.12voltclothing.com/

Herm: I gotta tell ya---when the temp plunges to below 40 (happened once this winter already) out here in "north" San Diego, it can be brutal. BRUTAL, I tell ya!

 

[Ingineer]

The official Plug-in Prius (PHV) coming in 2012 has a heat-pump system. This basically adds a $10 reversing valve to the existing electric A/C system.

Not sure why they didn't do this on the Leaf. Must just be the extra engineering time cost.

Moving heat around is much "cheaper" energy-wise than making it with electricity.

My electric van also had the Eberspacher heater with a small tank. Seemed like it only went through about a gallon each winter.

-Phil

 

[aqn]

What happened to pre-heating (and pre-cooling) while still plugged to the power source? Has nobody figured out how to do that yet? Or is that not possible, that the feature is only part of the "markitecture" and not available in the actual product?

 

[Ingineer]

This works, and it's definitely worth doing! However sometimes you aren't plugged in and you get into a cold car. Then what?