Leaf - Range in cold climates and Buying/Leasing in Michigan

[TonyWilliams]

@Tony... Thank you for your reply.... I thought everything else including Rav4 was only for CA, as compliance car. Thank you for forwarding me the link. I will definitely look into it. I will keep you updated. May contact you again before I make the purchase.

You're welcome.

Yes, it is a compliance car. It can also go 142 miles at 65 mph on hard surface, dry, level, no wind, no heater use roads. The battery won't fade like a LEAF, and the cold won't affect capacity much with battery Thermal Management System (TMS).

Compliance car doesn't mean you can't have one, as quite a few have already been shipped out of state. Read through this post and follow the links for out of state buyers at the end.

http://www.buyatoyota.com/Specials/SpecialOffers.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Until June 3, 2013:

Applies to 2012 model year RAV4 EV only.

No current offer for NorCal as of May 1, 2013.
No current offer for 2013 model year Rav4 EV

The only differences in 2013 model year is a higher window sticker price, and the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) has a "D" the replaces the "C" in the 8th digit from the right. You will find the VIN through the front window, looking from the outside on the driver's side, at the bottom.

I do not expect that there will be many 2012 model year cars available after April 30, 2013.

0.0% APR for 60 months

PLUS $10,000 SoCal / $0 NorCal Finance Cash from Toyota (they call it "subvention", so you still pay sales tax on it in California... your jurisdiction may vary)

Includes Toyota Care, Free maintenance for 2 years.

$2000 - $4000 typical dealers discounts (the dealers are getting 2% "holdback", and the salesperson gets $1000 from Toyota USA and the sales manager get $500... don't worry about hammering them on a good deal)

$7500 federal tax credit purchase ONLY !!! (NOTE: Toyota does not pass this credit to you on a lease - CAVEAT EMPTOR). You get this when you file IRS form 8936 with your federal taxes. No carryovers to the following tax year, so you need to owe the IRS at least $7500 this year.

$2500 California state credit for lease or purchase; Apply here. Obviously, out-of-state buyers don't get this, but instead you will get your state or local government incentives.

Sales tax - on an "in-state" purchase, you pay the applicable tax for your county/city. For an in state lease, you pay a "use tax" on the monthly payment. For out-of-state, you pay nothing to California with a proper Bill of Laden from a shipping company. DO NOT TAKE DELIVERY IN CALIFORNIA unless you want to pay our taxes!!! You will pay applicable taxes in your out-of-state jurisdiction. There's a whole thread devoted to out-of-state purchases and leases.

 

[aphysician]

@ surfingslovak

Thank you again for your reply. I have been enlightened with so much knowledge about the EVs today. There are many finer points that can dictate the range. It seems BMW i3 will be available around £ 35 K, which should be around $ 50 K, as mentioned in the article below. I found out today that one absolute essential thing for cold climate battery performance is TMS. I think Nissan is caught without that system in Leaf, and without any upgrade planned for short term, the winter performance for Leaf will always be an issue. After reviewing reply from the members and the need to have spare range, Leaf doesn't seem to be a good option in harsh MI winter. I can only hope for 60 miles of winter range in reality. I am looking into other options, but Tesla and RAV 4 are the only options currently which can fit in my situation. Hope Nissan addresses this issue soon.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i3/63328/bmw-i3-cost-around-ps35000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

Hope Nissan addresses this issue soon.

Actually, Nissan has no intention of going to a TMS battery. I doubt the Infiniti will, either.

 

[aphysician]

@ Reddy

Thank you for posting cold weather posts. It really helped me. I also saw your detailed wiki page. It seems for most part of the winter, I should not expect more than 60 miles of range from Leaf. This will cut it very close with my 50 miles commute. Waiting to see if any more options become available, other than RAV 4 and Tesla, esp with TMS so doesn't suffer winter degradation.

 

[cgaydos]

We do our share of cold weather driving with the LEAF, often on 20F mornings and occasionally as low as 0F. I tend to agree with everything written so far but would add a few comments.

First, most of the posters, including myself, have experience with 2011 or 2012 LEAFs. The 2013 has improved range and, for the SV and SL, a heating pump. The heating pump requires less energy and reportedly is a better heater. I would expect that the 2013 will have noticeably better range on those coldest days. Note also that the 2012 received a battery heater which kicked in on very cold conditions. This means that people with 2012s may report better range on very cold days than people with 2011s. Personally, as we have one of each that is something we've observed.

So, while I wouldn't recommend a 2012 LEAF in your situation I do think a 2013 may work (but not the S model due to the heating pump). But this would mean a bit of planning ahead on those very cold days. As others have mentioned, use the timer to preheat the car while plugged in. Also, charge to 100% shortly before the journey starts to reduce the stress on the battery. If your garage is heated that will help as well since the battery will be warmer at the outset so you'll get better battery performance on the outbound journey.

As an example, with a newish 2012 on a 0F day, a preheated car, non-heated garage, and with climate control on the entire way, we were able to go about a 45 mile round trip (return journey after car had been idle a couple hours and thus was very cold) before encountering the low battery warning. To compensate for the weather the journey was done at lower speeds. Wind was light in that day BUT as we usually do we had a lot of climbing to do (net change of 1000 ft elevation with lots of up-and-down hills on the way) so I'd expect similar on high wind days on a relatively flat course. Substitute a 2013 with more range and a heating pump and you're probably good to go, even after 2 years. Note I hadn't learned "hypermiling" when I made that journey ... If you practice those techniques you can add another 5 or so miles to the range. And of course the cliche "your mileage may vary" applies here in spades.

Fortunately those very cold days aren't that common. 20F days should be fine as the range is noticeably better. In the worst case on extreme winter weather days if you can identify a few Level 2 public charging stations on the way home you can probably get the extra range you'd need in just 30 minutes of charging.

I do think it is important to realize that while on most days driving the LEAF will be easier than an ICE car (no gas stations, no oil changes, easy to charge at home) on those extreme winter weather days you will be putting in more effort and making compromises. Personally I don't mind doing that as a trade-off for the benefits of the LEAF, but it's not for everyone. So, short summary is, if I were in your situation I'd go with the LEAF and make it work, but that is because I like the LEAF enough to be willing to do the extra things necessary on the very cold days.

Regarding availability in Michigan and comparisons with the Volt, I'm not surprised. I lived in Michigan in the 80s (Ann Arbor, office in Livonia, customers all over the metro area plus Flint and Lansing) and people were, and probably still are, very conscious of where a car was built. One advantage of the 2013 in that sense is that assembly is in the US - in case anyone asks. Very likely you'll know more about the car than the salesperson if you get to the point of deciding to buy/lease. The only disadvantage with this is that if the dealer has little LEAF experience then their service department is likely to do an incomplete job prepping the car and will probably take much longer to fix anything that might go wrong (speaking from personal experience and multiple dealers).

 

[turbotaguy]

A lot of good information here. I drive just over 70 miles round trip with my 13 leased Leaf. I have the flexibility to make it all city, or all highway, or a combination. I base my route on how much I will use the heat, etc. When I take the all city route I usually arrive home with 31 miles on my range meter. Some days when I am in a hurry to get home (take highway) or use the heat I have arrived with 17 miles left on the ranger meter. I drive pretty efficiently (around 4.1 miles per K) most of the time.

I can't stress the importance of having a backup L2 charger on your way home identified. Depending on where you live (north of downtown - RO or Birminham, east of downtown up 94, west of downtown toward Dearborn) you should be able to find an L2 station outside of the rough areas of Detroit on the way home near a restaurant. If you have any issues with weather, heater usage, cold, etc. you can always stop at your predetermined backup L2 charger and have coffee or dinner. In just an hour an L2 can deliver 20 miles of range which should be enough to get you home.

I'm all about the backup plan. Never had to use it, but this winter I may need to.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The 2013 has improved range and, for the SV and SL, a heating pump. The heating pump requires less energy and reportedly is a better heater. I would expect that the 2013 will have noticeably better range on those coldest days. Note also that the 2012 received a battery heater which kicked in on very cold conditions. This means that people with 2012s may report better range on very cold days than people with 2011s. Personally, as we have one of each that is something we've observed.

The "Cold Weather Package" that was optional on late build 2011 LEAFs, and standard on 2012 - 2013 does NOT increase range. It doesn't even power on until-20C / -4F, and its purpose is to prevent damage to the battery through freezing at -30C. The battery in ALL Nissan LEAFs will experience the same effects of a reduced capacity from a cold soaked battery, or about 10% loss at 30F degrees and about 20% when the six 50 watt battery heater come on to prevent freezing.

The 2013 does NOT have "increased range". It does have less reduction in range from heater use until it gets seriously cold at which time the resistance heater will be working. In really cold weather is not where heat pumps benefit.

Not all 2013 LEAFs have the heat pump; the LEAF-S and Rav4 EV have the same 6kW Denso resistance heater as the 2011-2012 LEAF. Only the 2013 LEAF SV and SL have a heat pump.

 

[aphysician]

@ Twiggy

Thank you for your detailed response. It is very helpful to know the experience of someone from similar climate. It seems there are not many cold weather leafs, only few adventurous ones like you, reddy, Dave, kubel, cgaydos. Even then I feel these are driven conservatively and on local roads. I agree driving an EV is a fantastic experience and a better experience than ICE. Responses from members helped me a lot, and what to expect in winter months to avoid disappointment. Winter range seems to be an issue, and I can expect around 60 miles range considering snow, wind, cold, traffic, 10-12 hour in parking structure with single overnight L2 charge. That is little close for my 50 miles commute and things will be like this for atleast 4 months of the year or 5-6 months if we are lucky. I can preheat at home, my concern is coming back from work after 12 hours in parking structure without charge. Also winter degradation is around 20% - 25%. Driving slower is a liability in MI, as people are driving very fast and that can put one in danger, so minimum speed that I need to maintain is 60-65 mph (others doing 75-85) and highways are the only safe way to commute to downtown, so driving conservatively won't be an option on highways. I am not sure how feasible it is getting a charging station at work, as that will require dealing with hospital administration. I feel I need an EV with TMS to counter this issue, I am also looking into bigger capacity EV. Whatever it is, I will be an EV owner in a year's time and responses from this forum helped me a lot to decide the right EV for my situation.

 

[aphysician]

@ cgaydos

Thank you for your reply. As you and Tony pointed out, I may get some benefit from reduced heater use in 2013 SV/SL in temp between 10 F and 30 F (that was the case for 4 months this year). I would think there may be benefit of 5 miles or so. I sure plan to install L2 charger at home and preheat before morning commute, coming back will be tricky as car will be in cold parking structure for 10-12 hours without charging. Driving conservatively can be practiced safely only in limited extent on crazy MI highways with average speeds over 70 mph. I take the shortest route to work, even that is 25 miles with 66% of that on highway. Currently there are only few charging stations on that road, outside rough parts. I understand there are few compromises with EV, but as with any other ICE car and I would rather make right compromises. I hung on to my ICE car as long as I could, so I can jump to EV when it is time to change. I agree driving EV is a better experience than ICE. I will crank up the numbers to see if I can afford an EV with bigger capacity and with TMS, if not then I will take the plunge for Leaf, and as everybody mentioned I should be fine on most days except the one below 20 F. I dont blame Michiganders for their attitude towards imports, i would have done the same if I had local ties (I was in OH before). It is great that Leaf is now produced in US. Volt is a great car, though feels little cramped with my height, and it is a four passenger car. Turbotaguy recommended a dealership who specializes in Leaf sales. I will start with them. Thanks again.

 

[kubel]

(1) I live in MI and it seems Volt is more favorite here than Leaf. I have seen only a rare Leaf in my past year here. I just wanted to know the experience of MI owners, about range in cold climates. However, I will really appreciate feedback from owners in cold states on actual range in cold climates. My commute is 20-25 miles oneway with 33% on city roads.

My commute is 27 miles one way. If you are familiar with the area, I commute from Ypsi to Livonia and back. I take a few miles of country roads north to Michigan Avenue, take Michigan east to Merriman, and then take Merriman north to Livonia. In the summer, one way can take 25%-35% of my battery, depending on how late I am . But in the winter, that same one way trip can take 50%-60%, meaning I have to plug in at work to get back home, even if I charge to 100%. I know the Crown Victoria wheels and snow tires didn't help my range any (and probably didn't help too much in the snow because they were so wide),and I have a 2011-2012 heater, so my experience will be worse than what you would experience. But just know that range sucks badly in the cold, even with 2013 MY, and sucks even worse when plowing through snow.

In the winter, I would typically charge to 80% at home (preheat the cabin before I leave), drive to work on eco with heater set to 74ish and heated seat on hi and steering wheel on, charge there 4-8 hours (trickle), and then drive home and pull in the driveway just before LBW (low battery warning).

If you are doing more than half of your commute on highways, you are really going to be pushing the LEAFs range in the winter. I would recommend against getting the LEAF unless you have a guaranteed spot to plug in at work (a simple outside 120V outlet will do). Either that, or keep the LEAF parked in the winter (which is a shame because the LEAF makes a great winter car with heated seats and heated steering wheel and preheating).

(2) I visited a dealership in MI and the salesperson didnt seem knowledgeable at all. It seemed that I am educating him about the product. There wasnt even a test car at the dealership. First thing that I heard from the sales guy is, "All the best" buying it. I obviously dont want to purchase a car from that dealer. I will really appreciate if forum members can suggest a salesperson/dealership in MI, near Greater Detroit Area, someone that has expertise in Leaf sales.

I spoke to all the dealers in the area and I wasn't impressed with their tendency to blow me off. Others wanted to charge over MSRP, so I wasn't interested. I eventually reserved and leased mine from out-of-state (Yark Nissan in Toledo, OH). It wasn't too far from where I live. Demo was available. They had one LEAF sales person (Chris Newman) who was very knowledgeable about the car and was interested in selling them. Not high pressure, didn't blow me off, communicates well, didn't insist on riding shotgun on the test drive, and he quoted a below-MSRP price from the start (which at the time, wasn't easy to get). In short, he's an atypical, good sales person. See his contact info here: http://www.yarknissan.com/dealership/staff.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[Reddy]

.....It seems there are not many cold weather leafs, only few adventurous ones like you, reddy, Dave, kubel, cgaydos....

:lol: Not me, I only play one a couple of times a year, and certainly not a long commute. Kubel is your best comparison.

 

[aphysician]

A lot of good information here. I drive just over 70 miles round trip with my 13 leased Leaf. I have the flexibility to make it all city, or all highway, or a combination. I base my route on how much I will use the heat, etc. When I take the all city route I usually arrive home with 31 miles on my range meter. Some days when I am in a hurry to get home (take highway) or use the heat I have arrived with 17 miles left on the ranger meter. I drive pretty efficiently (around 4.1 miles per K) most of the time. I have a backup ICE car so if I have a special trip or whatever I use it.

Have you looked at and websites like plugshare? There are a lot of charging locations downtown Detroit. You may be able to use one while at work (park at charging station, walk to work). Even if you just find a place to plug in at lunch you'll get 20 extra miles of range. Just google EV charging michigan there are a lot of sites that list out plug locations that are free! You might be suprised to find out there is a charge location next door to your building. I can't stress the importance of having a backup L2 charger on your way home identified. Depending on where you live (north of downtown - RO or Birminham, east of downtown up 94, west of downtown toward Dearborn) you should be able to find an L2 station outside of the rough areas of Detroit on the way home near a restaurant. If you have any issues with weather, heater usage, cold, etc. you can always stop at your predetermined backup L2 charger and have coffee or dinner. In just an hour an L2 can deliver 20 miles of range which should be enough to get you home. I'm all about the backup plan. Never had to use it, but this winter I may need to.

I drove a Volt before the Leaf. I love the way the Volt looks and love the backup ICE. Unfortunately the Volt is just too cramped and busy inside. I didn't want to buy a Nissan (im' a big 3 guy) but the Leaf is roomy and simple inside. I was sold after I sat in one and drove it.

Also, the Leaf lease was so cheap I could't pass it up. I bought the Leaf as a spare car and I prefer to use it over my regular ICE car. Once you get used to driving electric you start to wonder why all these people are idling around using gas.

My salesguy at Nissan Ann Arbor is Brian Champine FYI.

@ turbotaguy

Thank you for sharing your experience. It is very helpful. You are getting really good range on your MY13. cgaydos and Tony suggested that MY 13 may have some benefit in colder climate than MY 12. I just had few questions. When you use city, are you getting over 100 miles range in city (70+31) and over 85 miles on highway (70+17) or do you charge at work? In that case, would this be your range, city 66 (35+31) and highway 52 (35+17). It seems you are getting around 80 miles range most time (4*20). Unfortunately, I have to stick to one route (shortest) of 25 miles with 66% on highways. The morning commute is always hectic in an effort to reach before 7 and I have ICE car, which wife will use. I was hoping to get rid of my old ICE car as it has clocked 100K.

Thank you for recommending PlugShare, I was able to find few stations at Lawrence Tech/Tamaroff Nissan (feasible options) and Suburban Nissan (out of way, even farther to reach). Nothing downtown near Henry Ford where I work. Few at DMC, however not a walking distance. Hopefully few should come online in near future as downtown gets revitalized. I though saw many near GreekTown/MGM area and many others in every direction esp near Royal Oak area, so MI is doing better than I thought.

I wouldn't blame Michigenders about their attitude towards imports, I would do the same once I develop stronger ties (I just moved from OH). Volt is a great car with amazing looks, i liked it immediately when it was shown to public in detroit auto show in 2006, but I also feel cramped due to my stature and it is a four passenger car, and even then the EV range is 40 miles, which doesn't fulfill my requirement. Leaf is way more spacious and what's the point of still depending on ICE even though we are EV advocates. I don't think people will not take us seriously. The time has come to go all EV.

Certainly I wonder why EV was not thought a good option earlier, so efficient. There is so much energy wasted in breaking and ideling, that it is not even funny. EVs, even if they don't do anything else, with regen breaking and start/stop are more efficient. Hopefully we see more action in coming months. Thanks again.

 

[aphysician]

The "Cold Weather Package" that was optional on late build 2011 LEAFs, and standard on 2012 - 2013 does NOT increase range. It doesn't even power on until-20C / -4F, and its purpose is to prevent damage to the battery through freezing at -30C. The battery in ALL Nissan LEAFs will experience the same effects of a reduced capacity from a cold soaked battery, or about 10% loss at 30F degrees and about 20% when the six 50 watt battery heater come on to prevent freezing.

The 2013 does NOT have "increased range". It does have less reduction in range from heater use until it gets seriously cold at which time the resistance heater will be working. In really cold weather is not where heat pumps benefit.

Not all 2013 LEAFs have the heat pump; the LEAF-S and Rav4 EV have the same 6kW Denso resistance heater as the 2011-2012 LEAF. Only the 2013 LEAF SV and SL have a heat pump.

Thank you for clarification on heater use and range difference between MY 12 vs MY 13 and between S vs SV/SL. I think only way to ensure consistent cold weather performance is to have TMS, as in RAV 4 and Tesla. Though RAV 4 is a serious package.

 

[aphysician]

@ kubel

Thank you for your reply. It was very helpful to know your experience, as it is among very few who do long trips in cold climate. I am convinced that in summer Leaf can do 80 miles easily on a single charge. We have been to UofM few times, and familiar with the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti. Actually Livonia is the very next suburb from Farmington. It helps that you can take local roads, as the commute between these two places is safe, a luxury that I don't have traveling to downtown Detroit. I would have done that, as I hate highway driving and it is esp stressful in MI.

Responses from all the members have been very helpful and it seems I can expect no more than 60 miles range in winter months. The combination of cold, snow, wind is just too much for Leaf to handle. My commute is also 50 miles RT with mostly highways, so there is not much cushion left and I simply can't afford to be stuck in downtown or on highways. PlugShare doesn't show any nearby charging at work, however on coming back I may be able to get L2 charger at Nissan dealership in Southfield. I will be checking the site frequently, as more stations are always popping up, however I must need a station on hospital premises for ease/safety.

I will ask parking administration at my work to find a spot with an outlet in the parking structure. I haven't seen any, but there has to be one in 8 floor structure. That would solve everything, i.e range, cold soaking and preheating. If not i will need to look at EVs with higher range or with TMS to counter the winter issue. I agree Leaf will be a great winter car with heated seats/steering, my VW has the seats and Honda doesn't, it's a big difference on cold mornings.

Thank you for sharing the dealership info. @ turbotaguy also recommended Ann Arbor Nissan in your area. I will copy/paste address of both dealership below, for future Leaf owners in Michigan. My wife was in Toledo, so have seen Yark Nissan, they are big like Suburban in Toledo area. Thanks again for your help. Help to meet you soon. I am planning to go to Michigan Electric Auto show on June 8 in Schoolcraft College campus, should be pretty close to your work. We need to have a strong group of EV owners, you and turbotaguy could start something.


Yark Nissan
5957 W Central Ave, Toledo, OH
(800) 724-0753
LEAF sales person - Chris Newman
http://www.yarknissan.com/dealership/staff.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Ann Arbor Nissan
3975 Jackson Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48103
Call Us: 734-663-7770
LEAF sales person - Brian Champine
http://www.annarbornissan.com/staff.aspx#zoom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ksnogas2112]

Since we're on the topic of cold and climates and range I thought this was a good place for this anecdote:

Every month I reset the dash and CW energy data. Yesterday was the 1st of the month so this was a good/odd circumstance for an experiment.

Yesterday I took my son to school and a coworker to lunch and then home. The CW m/kWh was 5.5 and flirted with 5.6.

Today I took my son to school and went to lunch by myself across the street from yesterday. The 2 day avg display in CW is now 5.0 m/kWh. When I arrived at the office this morning instead of 5.5 from yesterday it was 5.0.

So that means yesterday I was running 5.5 m/kWh and today the same trip was 4.5 m/kWh to get the 5.0 avg.

Differences:
Yesterday Air temp: 82* F, 6 battery temp bars, dry pavement, 235lb passenger (lunch), strong south wind but driving EW
Today: Air temp 32*F and falling, 4 battery temp bars, rainy streets, constant "normal" windshield wiper operation, heated seats but no heater, strong north wind but driving EW.

Weather plays more of a factor in range than passengers.

 

[aphysician]

@KSNoGas

Nicely explained. I read some more posts on Newbie section. One good one was a post by @mlapratt, from Michigan. Every indicators confirm that expecting 60 miles in winter is reasonable. I saw your signature, and that also gives a very good idea of winter range. I will take the lowest range of 3.2-3.5 miles/kWh in frigid MI winters. This was a very good discussion, and helped me immensely on what to expect with Leaf in winter and helped me deciding on an EV.

 

[mlapratt]

I've been researching how a LEAF lease would (or would not) benefit my needs for nearly six months.

I live near Milford and work in Dearborn (64 miles roundtrip). I make the commute about 14 times/month.

I test drove a 2013 "S" the full roundtrip commute in March. I took a route which was about 20% freeway (70mph) and 80% city (45ish mph). The temp was 60 degrees and sunny when I started the commute. I arrived at worksite with 45% charge remaining. I trickle-charged at work for about one hour. And began the return trip to home with 55% charge remaining. During the 50-minute 32-mile return route, the temps dropped to about 25 degrees with blistery, snowy, major headwind (gotta love a Michigan winter). Half-way into this return journey home, I was down to 18% charge remaining. Fortunately, I was passing a Nissan dealer (Farminton Hils). I pulled in and charged L2 for 45 minutes. That was enough to (barely) get my home "on fumes". I decided this was not the car for me.

Then I did more research and learned about the SV vs. S differences. And I decided, since I *do* have a backup ICE car to use in cases of extreme cold/weather, I would ask the dealership to allow me to test drive my commute... again... this time with an SV... and this time in "milder" weather. So I did. My route was again about 20% freeway (70mph) and 80% city (45ish mph). Test drive #2 was in an SV on a mild weather day (65 degrees and sunny). I arrived at work with 59% charge remaining. I did not charge while at work for three hours. Weather was the same for my return drive. I arrived at home with 18% charge remaining. "Sold". (Or "Leased").

I take possession of my SV tomorrow afternoon. And I'll drive the SV to Dearborn already tomorrow night for work. This forum has been very helpful to me. I am definitely NOT an eco-expert. I'm NOT a car-guy. I'm NOT a tree-hugger. I'm NOT an electrician. I'm NOT a mechanic. I've just simply crunched numbers to determine that this is at LEAST a break-even financial choice when compared to any other new gas car I would consider. And why not!

 

[surfingslovak]

I take possession of my SV tomorrow afternoon. And I'll drive the SV to Dearborn already tomorrow night for work. This forum has been very helpful to me. I am definitely NOT an eco-expert. I'm NOT a car-guy. I'm NOT a tree-hugger. I'm NOT an electrician. I'm NOT a mechanic. I've just simply crunched numbers to determine that this is at LEAST a break-even financial choice when compared to any other new gas car I would consider. And why not!

Good for you, and thanks for the report! Please keep the board updated about your experience with the SV in Michigan. If you don't mind me asking, two or three year lease?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I've been researching how a LEAF lease would (or would not) benefit my needs for nearly six months.

I live near Milford and work in Dearborn (64 miles roundtrip). I make the commute about 14 times/month.

I test drove a 2013 "S" the full roundtrip commute in March. I took a route which was about 20% freeway (70mph) and 80% city (45ish mph). The temp was 60 degrees and sunny when I started the commute. I arrived at worksite with 45% charge remaining. I trickle-charged at work for about one hour. And began the return trip to home with 55% charge remaining. During the 50-minute 32-mile return route, the temps dropped to about 25 degrees with blistery, snowy, major headwind (gotta love a Michigan winter). Half-way into this return journey home, I was down to 18% charge remaining. Fortunately, I was passing a Nissan dealer (Farminton Hils). I pulled in and charged L2 for 45 minutes. That was enough to (barely) get my home "on fumes". I decided this was not the car for me.

Then I did more research and learned about the SV vs. S differences. And I decided, since I *do* have a backup ICE car to use in cases of extreme cold/weather, I would ask the dealership to allow me to test drive my commute... again... this time with an SV... and this time in "milder" weather. So I did. My route was again about 20% freeway (70mph) and 80% city (45ish mph). Test drive #2 was in an SV on a mild weather day (65 degrees and sunny). I arrived at work with 59% charge remaining. I did not charge while at work for three hours. Weather was the same for my return drive. I arrived at home with 18% charge remaining. "Sold". (Or "Leased").

I take possession of my SV tomorrow afternoon. And I'll drive the SV to Dearborn already tomorrow night for work. This forum has been very helpful to me. I am definitely NOT an eco-expert. I'm NOT a car-guy. I'm NOT a tree-hugger. I'm NOT an electrician. I'm NOT a mechanic. I've just simply crunched numbers to determine that this is at LEAST a break-even financial choice when compared to any other new gas car I would consider. And why not!

drop it down to 60 on the freeway and you will be fine in all but the worst weather

 

[planet4ever]

I think only way to ensure consistent cold weather performance is to have TMS, as in RAV 4 and Tesla.

I think I may have said this to you on another thread, but I really fail to see why you are so hung up on TMS. It's great, perhaps even vital, in a very hot climate, but of relatively little importance in a cold one. If, as you say, you do not have any place to plug in at work, any TMS that runs will reduce your mileage available for the trip home. And if you do have a place to plug in, even at 120v, you won't need to keep the battery warm to make it home.

Now, I'll admit that I'm just an armchair philosopher on this subject, never having had an EV with TMS and having last lived in a cold climate 50 years ago. But I just don't see by what scientific theory TMS would help you.

Ray