drees said:
arnis said:
Last quote is worthless. Very short and missing sources, low information density.
Battery tech requires more than just average Joe. I'm not able to discuss with you if you are not
taking into account new information. Please read more. Don't read opinions nor rules of thumb.
Arnis, if you are going to make these types of accusations about Reg who clearly does plenty of reading and has collected his own data to back up his theories, you are welcome to go back on the moderated poster list. Consider this a warning.
If you wish to argue, please provide your own facts showing that your LEAF does in fact charge your LEAF's 12V battery properly.
Problems from sulfation occur when the sulfate forms a hard crystalline shell that isn't dissolved during charging. Over time, the sulfate crystals grow to cover most of the surface area of the lead plates, reducing capacity. Eventually, the sulfate crystals expand and crack the plates, destroying the battery.
Before complete sulfation occurs, the battery becomes less efficient and is able to hold less charge. The capacity of the battery is reduced to a non-useful level, and the battery is discarded before it is mechanically destroyed.
This is not Reg. It's a quote from opensourceecology.org. This article has missing sources. AND IS controversial to most other materials I worked with. Like:
https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjp152QwenPAhWlHJoKHRQuBRAQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Forbit.dtu.dk%2Ffiles%2F7710966%2Fris_r_1515.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHnI7wzPd-4doWwwTq03fDzGN3niQ&sig2=vS9wvq5faWJOWjEqgEYzdg
https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwixtvamwenPAhWIKJoKHeQ2B8oQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fir.canterbury.ac.nz%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F10092%2F5594%2Fhunter_thesis.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEFadA4u_Mp5tbXIPjoFDlzuBtA2w&sig2=KDc9N7Sqgyf64Pd9RLKDzQ
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223440372_Failure_mechanisms_in_valve_regulated_leadacid_batteries_for_cyclic_applications
https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiGud64wunPAhVkIJoKHf7zCMoQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yuasabatteries.com%2Fpdfs%2FTechManual_2014.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF75YKsPUzRm0hFqMGRQ_m9ex_uEg&sig2=wyhqdmKC0en6ZeNsyulv5w
https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjUz575wunPAhVlQJoKHcwcABUQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.power-thru.com%2Fdocuments%2FThe%2520Truth%2520About%2520Batteries%2520-%2520POWERTHRU%2520White%2520Paper.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFeQ0iivXUB1XF7beK1c7XAeqo0gQ&sig2=GU8dWq0wcPhNK5waKnQrpg&cad=rja
https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwinoMejw-nPAhUCApoKHbyaCQsQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.otherpower.com%2Fimages%2Fscimages%2F7427%2FLead_Acid_Battery_Efficiency.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEfHZ9mbG6vJEl2dlCil0JFS_G7Uw&sig2=zvy7NYITaj-X9KpbMsplBA&bvm=bv.136499718,d.bGs
https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj9q-O2w-nPAhXJYZoKHYNQBcwQFggZMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.power-sonic.com%2Fimages%2Fpowersonic%2Ftechnical%2F1277751263_20100627-TechManual-Lo.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEvGBEmiU7kbXy7qTc4DC7DUI6Gqw&sig2=uMRiAnzc4RZmPz-2qrSQlw&bvm=bv.136499718,d.bGs
https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjNlJvbw-nPAhWrFZoKHbajD8sQFggZMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdtechno.com%2Fpdf%2Fref%2F41_2128_0212.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHhkiASHJ0Rc8py1MWVwLmBb0sWKw&sig2=3OSnGKWymES-3QT_00Ch6g&bvm=bv.136499718,d.bGs
who clearly does plenty of reading and has collected his own data to back up his theories
Of course he did a lot of reading to back up his theories. I would like to familiarize with those materials too if I may.
This has happened to the 12V batteries in MANY (most?) LEAFs within the course of a couple or a few years.
English word "most" should mean "majority" I believe. and couple should mean "two". I've not seen any data of that being
even remotely true. Few just mentioned their experience: RockyNv, Randy and GerryAZ
As we can see, Leaf can be left for weeks and it will not die if OBD device is not plugged in.
So anyway. Materials I linked. None of those is research about Leaf charger. But we all here now know how Leaf charger works.
And the first post in this topic has video that demonstrates that. And it is the same for me.
Reg is convinced, that the way how Leaf treats 12V battery is not acceptable. He is convinced that battery is prematurely
failing because of sulfation that happens due to low SOC. And that low SOC is the result of Leaf not keeping it charging at
14,4V level long enough.
I have verified that this is not true. Leaf will charge 12V battery if it is not adequately charged (GerryAZ accidentally verified that).
Also we all have consensus that Leaf does keep 12V battery at 13V for extended periods (driving and charging Leaf).
All that research being done (links above) is clearly stating that battery will be at very high SOC if kept at 13V.
And the last and most difficult finding was that lead acid batteries are not able to stand at 100% SOC for any meaningful period.
I clearly did give a reasonable conclusion WHY Leaf doesn't keep 14.4V voltage any longer than it does.
I can not defend "my theories". This is not my work. There are: PhD dissertations, university materials, books, technical papers, etc.
I can only quote them and do conclusions that some "opinions and theories" are clearly incorrect. This includes information that
is widely available on the internet (like "lead acid battery will sulfate if not kept at 100%" or "float voltage should definitely be 13.6V")
Thank you for such soft warning. I didn't even accuse anybody on this forum. I was critical on lousy article/webpage. And asked
to read information I read. There is too much of that for anybody to quote into this thread.
RegGuheert said:
But even if you believe the 80% bullcrap,
This clearly shows attitude to 80% charge bullcrap.
Now I'm waiting for solid research done on irreversible sulfation happening at SOC below 100%.
Otherwise it is just an opinion/assumption (according to all known means to distinguish statements).