Los Angeles Metro Area Leafers

[Valdemar]

So now we have used all 3 QCs available in SoCal!

More like 2.5 if you count the one at the 7-11 store in San Bernardino. Hopefully here they did the homework and researched demand charges beforehand. Anyone has any information about how much Blink QC will cost?

 

[Valdemar]

According to comments on plugshare there is no more free juice in Burbank, a steep rate of $2/hr is in effect now. One the upside if you really need to charge your car you'll be guaranteed to find a charger available there at that price.

 

[hill]

According to comments on plugshare there is no more free juice in Burbank, a steep rate of $2/hr is in effect now. One the upside if you really need to charge your car you'll be guaranteed to find a charger available there at that price.

Many now have a, "$2 minimum" ... so even if you just needed 20 minutes to get your trip finished, you end up paying the equivalent of $2 for 4 miles of driving.

 

[Valdemar]

According to comments on plugshare there is no more free juice in Burbank, a steep rate of $2/hr is in effect now. One the upside if you really need to charge your car you'll be guaranteed to find a charger available there at that price.

Many now have a, "$2 minimum" ... so even if you just needed 20 minutes to get your trip finished, you end up paying the equivalent of $2 for 4 miles of driving.

What pisses me off is that most of these installations were subsidized with taxpayer's money and despite that in the end it is EV drivers who get penalized with high rates. However it's better like that than none at all.

 

[davewill]

...What pisses me off is that most of these installations were subsidized with taxpayer's money and despite that in the end it is EV drivers who get penalized with high rates. However it's better like that than none at all.

Yes, the installs were subsidized, but the fact remains if they can't even pay enough to cover maintenance and at least a little profit, sooner or later we will lose them. Sure, some businesses will continue to subsidize charging for the marketing, but not enough to forge a robust network.

 

[Valdemar]

...What pisses me off is that most of these installations were subsidized with taxpayer's money and despite that in the end it is EV drivers who get penalized with high rates. However it's better like that than none at all.

Yes, the installs were subsidized, but the fact remains if they can't even pay enough to cover maintenance and at least a little profit, sooner or later we will lose them. Sure, some businesses will continue to subsidize charging for the marketing, but not enough to forge a robust network.

I hear you, and it pisses me off even more. Looking at how things are unfolding with the latest spin on EV technology I become more and more pessimistic about its future every day. I even started to question if I made the right decision buying a Leaf. Well, there is still hope I guess. For the time being I just keep my fingers crossed I won't be losing battery capacity at AZ rates, as if that happens and I'll be forced to spend a lot of time at $2/hr places it'll be a complete fiasco.

 

[DTB]

I don't see how any of these companies will ever make enough money to stay in business, much less earn a profit. The government really went down the wrong path trying to subsidize start-ups of for-profit businesses. Most of the units that don’t work are either down or frozen due to connectivity/software problems, not actual charge issues.

The government should have started by focusing on installing very basic, cheap, free chargers at government owned locations (park n rides, public parking lots, along streets, parks, government buildings, etc etc). I don't think a simple charger would require any more maintenance or electricity cost than a street light. Then they could require the largest companies (malls, movie theaters, large employers) to maintain a certain number of free chargers based on number of total parking spaces (which is usually already a requirement based on sq ft of building space). Then offer free units to smaller business who promise to maintain for an extended period of time.

 

[davewill]

I don't see how any of these companies will ever make enough money to stay in business, much less earn a profit. ...

It's the chicken and egg problem. When 30% of the cars on the road are plug ins and gas prices are skyrocketing, the companies that run charging networks will be rolling in dough.

The government should have started by focusing on installing very basic, cheap, free chargers at government owned locations (park n rides, public parking lots, along streets, parks, government buildings, etc etc). I don't think a simple charger would require any more maintenance or electricity cost than a street light. ...

I'm actually beginning to think that every "free" charging station that exists is actually delaying the day when the infrastructure blooms. As long as the perception is that public charging can be free, even modest prices for charging seem to ruffle feathers.

 

[Valdemar]

What people who set prices for charging don't seem to understand is that less revenue is better than no revenue. By setting charging prices high they hope to bring more money in but it does the exact opposite as at such rates very few will actually use the chargers. Additionally some of those who are thinking about getting an EV will likely be discouraged after finding out the cost of charging at public places, so it also negatively affects future markets. For example if a charger is available where I park my car in many cases I wouldn't mind charging "just in case" if the price was up to $1/hr, but will only charge if I must at $2/hr. Most on this forum would agree I think. If public commercial charging infrastructure is doomed then high prices can only accelerate this process.

 

[rcyoder]

According to RECARGO.COM, Cal State Dominguez Hills has a pair of J-plugs installed over in Parking Lot 2.

1) Has anybody used this charging location?

2) Have you tried to do so during a Galaxy game at the Home Depot Center?

3) Where *exactly* are the chargers?

(There are no check-ins on RECARGO)

 

[fooljoe]

What people who set prices for charging don't seem to understand is that less revenue is better than no revenue. By setting charging prices high they hope to bring more money in but it does the exact opposite as at such rates very few will actually use the chargers. Additionally some of those who are thinking about getting an EV will likely be discouraged after finding out the cost of charging at public places, so it also negatively affects future markets. For example if a charger is available where I park my car in many cases I wouldn't mind charging "just in case" if the price was up to $1/hr, but will only charge if I must at $2/hr. Most on this forum would agree I think. If public commercial charging infrastructure is doomed then high prices can only accelerate this process.

If a pay-to-charge L2 charging infrastructure has any future whatsoever it will be with plug-in hybrids, not pure EVs. Most pure EV drivers will have figured out how to get the cheapest possible electricity rate for home charging, and many (about 30% according to a recent survey I saw) have solar at home and charge "for free". Therefore most pure EV drivers would never use public L2 charging at any price that could come close to being profitable for a charging station operator, except in exceedingly rare "emergency" situations or for the novelty of it when they first get their car. Not only are public stations too expensive, but they're also too unreliable. If we were to make use of public charging for some sort of special trip, not only would we have to swallow the cost, but we'd also have to face the possibility that when we arrive the charger could be in use or ICE'd, leaving us stranded. Hence the phrase "just-drive-the-Prius."

So if an L2 infrastructure would ever be profitable, it will be as an alternative to buying gasoline for PHEV drivers. As long as the pricing is low enough so that it's cheaper than gas for a Volt or PiP driver, and as long as the units are conveniently placed, there could be a business model there. The problem is the places where chargers would be convenient (restaurants, malls, hotels, etc) would probably be much better off attracting new business and earning goodwill by just eating the cost of electricity and keeping the charging free. For example, back when charging was free at Walgreen's and Ikea, I would be excited to go there and support these establishments, even going out of my way to stop by. Now that they both charge ridiculous amounts, I feel spurned and will avoid each as much as possible. They'd be better off in my mind if they never installed charging stations at all.

 

[TomT]

I whole-heartedly agree! At the current pricing, I will only L2 charge when I absolutely must. QC at a somewhat higher price makes much more sense to me and offers some real value.

What people who set prices for charging don't seem to understand is that less revenue is better than no revenue. By setting charging prices high they hope to bring more money in but it does the exact opposite as at such rates very few will actually use the chargers. Additionally some of those who are thinking about getting an EV will likely be discouraged after finding out the cost of charging at public places, so it also negatively affects future markets. For example if a charger is available where I park my car in many cases I wouldn't mind charging "just in case" if the price was up to $1/hr, but will only charge if I must at $2/hr. Most on this forum would agree I think. If public commercial charging infrastructure is doomed then high prices can only accelerate this process.

If a pay-to-charge L2 charging infrastructure has any future whatsoever it will be with plug-in hybrids, not pure EVs. Most pure EV drivers will have figured out how to get the cheapest possible electricity rate for home charging, and many (about 30% according to a recent survey I saw) have solar at home and charge "for free". Therefore most pure EV drivers would never use public L2 charging at any price that could come close to being profitable for a charging station operator, except in exceedingly rare "emergency" situations or for the novelty of it when they first get their car. Not only are public stations too expensive, but they're also too unreliable. If we were to make use of public charging for some sort of special trip, not only would we have to swallow the cost, but we'd also have to face the possibility that when we arrive the charger could be in use or ICE'd, leaving us stranded. Hence the phrase "just-drive-the-Prius."

So if an L2 infrastructure would ever be profitable, it will be as an alternative to buying gasoline for PHEV drivers. As long as the pricing is low enough so that it's cheaper than gas for a Volt or PiP driver, and as long as the units are conveniently placed, there could be a business model there. The problem is the places where chargers would be convenient (restaurants, malls, hotels, etc) would probably be much better off attracting new business and earning goodwill by just eating the cost of electricity and keeping the charging free. For example, back when charging was free at Walgreen's and Ikea, I would be excited to go there and support these establishments, even going out of my way to stop by. Now that they both charge ridiculous amounts, I feel spurned and will avoid each as much as possible. They'd be better off in my mind if they never installed charging stations at all.

 

[davewill]

... Most pure EV drivers will have figured out how to get the cheapest possible electricity rate for home charging, and many (about 30% according to a recent survey I saw) have solar at home and charge "for free". Therefore most pure EV drivers would never use public L2 charging at any price ...

Really? Just because you have free juice at home, you wouldn't want to extend your range occasionally? Bizarre.

At least I know who to blame when public charging dies.

 

[TonyWilliams]

At least I know who to blame when public charging dies.

This forum is full of folks who will adamantly oppose public charging by not supporting it. It's tough from every angle; regulatory, permits, electricity, capital, and the ambivalent end users.

 

[Valdemar]

So if an L2 infrastructure would ever be profitable, it will be as an alternative to buying gasoline for PHEV drivers. As long as the pricing is low enough so that it's cheaper than gas for a Volt or PiP driver, and as long as the units are conveniently placed, there could be a business model there.

Do you realize that at $2/hr it is more expensive to charge than to fill up with gas for the cars you reference, even in CA? I may be moving further away from work in the near future and if I can't find a more or less convenient place to charge for $1 or less while at work my Leaf and I will be parting ways.

 

[rcyoder]

Do you realize that at $2/hr it is more expensive to charge than to fill up with gas for the cars you reference, even in CA? I may be moving further away from work in the near future and if I can't find a more or less convenient place to charge for $1 or less while at work my Leaf and I will be parting ways.[/quote]

OTOH, the 2013 Leaf has a 6.6 kW charger so $2/hour becomes much more reasonable. This is one of the reasons why they should charge by the kWh *NOT* connect time.

 

[Valdemar]

This is one of the reasons why they should charge by the kWh *NOT* connect time.

That would certainly be my preference but given the actual cost of electricity is just a fraction of the collected fee I don't see why any charging station owner would want to switch to the per kWh model, after all it is not their problem that our cars have low-powered chargers.

 

[grommet]

FYI: Any ChargePoint units owned by CarCharging Inc now bill at $.49 per kWh... (well, only in states that allow it.) This is the first significant "owner" that has done this. (Considering most of their units are deployed in paid parking garages already, per kWh is probably a good model for them.)

And yes, they still need to pay Coulomb $.50 per session, give them a cut of that $.49, even when billing per kWh. ;-)

 

[Valdemar]

Just want to report I had a positive experience with my first annual battery check at Miller Nissan in Van Nuys. Next day appointment, courteous service advisers, very straightforward - no upsell, took just under one hour with a total bill of $0 with multi-point inspection included. I did request a battery service specifically upfront though. The battery health report came out with 5 stars in all categories, but we all now know what it is worth.

While being there I chatted with the parts department person trying to find out if they might be aware about battery replacement cost, but he was clueless and the price was still missing from their part catalog. Service people were unaware of any battery replacements done at this location. Mystery continues.

 

[hill]

... Most pure EV drivers will have figured out how to get the cheapest possible electricity rate for home charging, and many (about 30% according to a recent survey I saw) have solar at home and charge "for free". Therefore most pure EV drivers would never use public L2 charging at any price ...

Really? Just because you have free juice at home, you wouldn't want to extend your range occasionally? . . . . . . . . . . snip

What's bizzar, is the EV driver who'd stop to L2 charge. If I gotta stop for 2 or 3 hours just to finish my trip? I might as well take my bicycle. I know my wife has a tough time stopping for a 12 to 20 minute QC stop - and you think folks wana twiddle their thumbs for a couple hours? That's more patience than most have. The rare occasion that we L2 away from home, is on the rare occasion we're at an event that our destination is very very near the L2. Then again, we really can't count on it.
Example; Fashion island has L2. We may shop there . . . but there are PHEV's owned by employees / shopkeepers that use the stalls as their own personal parking spots (even tho they only need a couple hours to charge). They're often there all day long. After leaving notes about how nice it'd be to show a little grace and courtesy . . . . . nothing. So even then, we can't count on it.