Mini-QC Rapid-Charger (RC) Project for LEAF QC Port

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It is possible to publish a patented standard or specification, after it is patented,
without giving away any rights to the patent.

I do not know how much of the Cha...mo standards are disclosed in
patents. The bulk of the standard might be held as Intellectual Property,
and not actually patented, because that might have disclosed more than
the controlling entity wanted other "out of club" (non-members) to know.

However, if you buy the document, you must agree to very strict oversight,
including having your electronic copy on only one NON-NETWORKED computer,
and agree to on-site inspections at any time by the Cha...mo watchdogs.

I stopped reading there, but I think that there were also constraints on
how the information was used, and notices that fees would be due.
 
garygid said:
It is possible to publish a patented standard or specification, after is patented,
without giving away any rights to the patent.

Normally patent holders do release some rights as part of getting their tech to be an accepted standard. The practice is called RAND (or FRAND) licensing - Fair, Reasonable and Non-discriminatory.
Basically, a patent holder agrees to give away its right to prevent others from using their SEP (Standard-Essential-Patent) technology - anybody who wants to should be able to get access to the patented part of the Standard technology for a 'Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory' fee (could be zero).

Out of these terms, Non-Discriminatory is the most clear, meaning that everyone should get the same treatment (i.e. no behind-the-curtain deals, no exclusion of competitors, etc). Fair and Reasonable terms are more open to interpretation. Generally, standard bodies' and courts' position is that Fair & Reasonable means 'less than the cost of the smallest priceable component practicing the standard'. In our case, this could be argued to be just the QC controller since the main charger hardware is universal-purpose. As such, this would put an effective limit of a couple of hundred $$ per unit. But then again, if they decide that you must instead pay $2,000 per unit and all current charger manufacturers agree, one would have to argue in court that $2000 is no longer Fair and Reasonable. And courts are expensive...

Some educational snippets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/corporate-information/melamed-testimony-july-30-2013-statement.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More on this later.

V
 
Apologies in advance for the boring post but here is a copy of the terms you have to click 'yes' on in order to buy a copy of the standard (as I mentioned, we have stopped there, as well - until our lawyer can render a solid advice):

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in my non-professional (but somewhat informed through a couple of IP-related cases I have been involved in) opinion, this just means that:

1. You can't redistribute the document. Note that this in itself does not mean you can't distribute / use INFORMATION contained in the document. This is a standard provision of copyright - it covers the expression, not the meaning.

2. All IP rights stay with the respective owners. So the fact that the technology is published does not mean that it can be used for free. Regardless of use. Now, of course, people are somewhat reasonable and would probably not sue you for an implementation you use at home / your close geek group. But if you try to create a near-zero-cost implementation of the technology with intent to distribute to unlimited number of people, this is quite another story.

This is where we need to ascertain what exactly is the patent situation wrt protocol. As Gary correctly mentioned, it is unlikely that the tech is fully covered by patents due to disclosure requirements for patent grants. Since the protocol was NOT disclosed until it became a standard, it cannot (at least per US patent laws) have been a part of an official patent application / grant as that would require public disclosure so that a person with 'an average ability in the related art can replicate the patent embodiment based on the disclosed information'.

Fun stuff. In the end, we might just contact Chademo directly and see what they say (just like Tony suggested). After our lawyer says it's ok for us to do, of course ;-)

V
 
valerun said:
2. All IP rights stay with the respective owners. So the fact that the technology is published does not mean that it can be used for free. Regardless of use. Now, of course, people are somewhat reasonable and would probably not sue you for an implementation you use at home / your close geek group. But if you try to create a near-zero-cost implementation of the technology with intent to distribute to unlimited number of people, this is quite another story.


Yes, it was my impression that "fair-use" as I learned from copy-write, also applies to patents. If you are building/writing something for non-commercial, personal, educational use, it is free and no-one can come after you. This was my understanding and intent from the beginning regarding this project.

Buying/selling a garbage bag of parts and being given instructions on how to assemble them is very very different than buying a completed unit off the shelf.

But I could be wrong about how "fair-use" applies or does not apply to patent law.
 
As Tony suggested, I did contact chademo using their online web-form (the only contact I have available to me). I was surprised I actually was given a response at all, never mind within 48 hours.

uc
 
jclemens said:
As Tony suggested, I did contact chademo using their online web-form (the only contact I have available to me). I was surprised I actually was given a response at all, never mind within 48 hours.

uc

Great news!
now it is not any reason to not continue on the project :)
hope there will be a kick start project soon and support to have 3 fase ;) (400v 32a 3 phase and 220v 32a 3 phase wold be great)
 
this is definitely pretty exciting time.

I am hoping to be able to set up github repo for our version of implementation in the next few days (both QC controller code and charger code).
 
quick tech update: as you know 12kW version works well with the controller we coded up. However, when trying 25kW system, there is interference with Serial comms at higher power levels. Due to checksum check etc this does not result in any real problems but the charger does become non-responsive.

We will now try diff line drivers but that will take a few days. Any ideas on making Serial more immune without adding more hardware?

Valery.
 
valerun said:
Any ideas on making Serial more immune without adding more hardware?

Valery.

Maybe you're already doing this but - slow the serial comms down to the lowest baud rate you anticipate being acceptable for the necessary command and control?
 
valerun said:
We will now try diff line drivers but that will take a few days. Any ideas on making Serial more immune without adding more hardware?
Shielded cable? It depends on where the noise is entering the link, I'd suppose.
 
davewill said:
valerun said:
We will now try diff line drivers but that will take a few days. Any ideas on making Serial more immune without adding more hardware?
Shielded cable? It depends on where the noise is entering the link, I'd suppose.
Also are you driving the serial directly at 3.3V or 5V, or going through true +/- 10V (12V?) transceivers?
If you'd like I could show you a circuit to do this with cheap fiber optics.. Adds a few bucks but you can't beat the noise immunity or isolation :)

Very exciting news on the legal front! Kudos.
 
GregH said:
davewill said:
valerun said:
We will now try diff line drivers but that will take a few days. Any ideas on making Serial more immune without adding more hardware?
Shielded cable? It depends on where the noise is entering the link, I'd suppose.
Also are you driving the serial directly at 3.3V or 5V, or going through true +/- 10V (12V?) transceivers?
If you'd like I could show you a circuit to do this with cheap fiber optics.. Adds a few bucks but you can't beat the noise immunity or isolation :)

Very exciting news on the legal front! Kudos.

Yes please! We are currently running at 3.3v...
 
sooooo....

---------
Order #374795 contains:

2x 9mm Pin R4 in Polished Silver

...
Kind regards,

The Shapeways Team
[email protected]
----------

before anyone wonders if we are out of our mind ordering large silver pins, consider these 2 facts:
1. Polished brass is only ~16% cheaper on Shapeways
2. Official plug costs $2,500 from Yazaki so one could make all pins from Gold and still be ahead LOL ;-))

Will get this in 2 weeks and report.

V
 
kind of quiet in here...

Anyway, jewelry is here ;-) Our very own pure sterling silver power pins for JoLoMo plug (is this a TM yet? ;-)

Beautiful, ain't it? Fits the Leaf's socket very nicely and snug. Silver is solid metal - none of that sintering stuff.

Joel - I think 2 mods need to be made:
1. The wall of the crimp section is too thick - probably needs to be 2/3rds of what it is now. I haven't tried crimping it yet but looks very formidable now.
2. The length of the crimp section is too short - all the lugs / anderson connector pins of this size have at least 1.5" long crimp sections. I suggest we do the same. Right now, it's only 1/2" or so - this is insufficient for a high-quality crimp I think - and definitely not enough for a double-crimp.
Is it possible for you to make these mods to Shapeways set?

We will now print the rest of the plug on a Stratasys and will report on assembly. Stay tuned.

Thanks,
Valery.
 

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valerun said:
kind of quiet in here...

Anyway, jewelry is here ;-) Our very own pure sterling silver power pins for JoLoMo plug (is this a TM yet? ;-)

Beautiful, ain't it? Fits the Leaf's socket very nicely and snug. Silver is solid metal - none of that sintering stuff.

Joel - I think 2 mods need to be made:
1. The wall of the crimp section is too thick - probably needs to be 2/3rds of what it is now. I haven't tried crimping it yet but looks very formidable now.
2. The length of the crimp section is too short - all the lugs / anderson connector pins of this size have at least 1.5" long crimp sections. I suggest we do the same. Right now, it's only 1/2" or so - this is insufficient for a high-quality crimp I think - and definitely not enough for a double-crimp.
Is it possible for you to make these mods to Shapeways set?

We will now print the rest of the plug on a Stratasys and will report on assembly. Stay tuned.

Thanks,
Valery.

With walls that thick, why crimp? Wouldn't a bolt-head clamp provide just s good of a connection? I'm thinking the same setup as your average high current electric breaker.
 
Levi8than said:
With walls that thick, why crimp? Wouldn't a bolt-head clamp provide just s good of a connection? I'm thinking the same setup as your average high current electric breaker.

Crimp is better - larger contact surface.
 
Joel - I think 2 mods need to be made:
1. The wall of the crimp section is too thick - probably needs to be 2/3rds of what it is now. I haven't tried crimping it yet but looks very formidable now.
2. The length of the crimp section is too short - all the lugs / anderson connector pins of this size have at least 1.5" long crimp sections. I suggest we do the same. Right now, it's only 1/2" or so - this is insufficient for a high-quality crimp I think - and definitely not enough for a double-crimp.
Is it possible for you to make these mods to Shapeways set?

The cable end of the pin was a design copy of what I used for the manually built pins.
I measured with calipers the butt-splice I used. Digikey PN WM2973-ND
0192150046.jpg

The depth and wall thickness should be the same (for one side since it is for a pin, not a splice)
This can be used with 2 kinds of crimpers, one is a proper one, but costs over 3000$, the other is a hammer kind, it is only ~50$
0192940008.jpg


The one thing I wasn't sure about is how hard the silver will be compared to the butt-splice which is made from some kind of tinned copper alloy.

I will update the pins to have a thinner wall and deeper pocket (1.5" deep), but please give me some dimensions on how thick the outer wall should be.
Also, how about making the pin itself a little hollow to save on silver? (Just adding a cone shaped recess about half way down) Of course the wall thickness of the pin will have priority. The conductivity of solid silver is just so overkill.

How about shapeway's tolerance? where they able to get close enough to 9.0mm in diameter?

I'll update the shapeways file to v4.1
 
Joel - I think 2 mods need to be made:
1. The wall of the crimp section is too thick - probably needs to be 2/3rds of what it is now. I haven't tried crimping it yet but looks very formidable now.
2. The length of the crimp section is too short - all the lugs / anderson connector pins of this size have at least 1.5" long crimp sections. I suggest we do the same. Right now, it's only 1/2" or so - this is insufficient for a high-quality crimp I think - and definitely not enough for a double-crimp.
Is it possible for you to make these mods to Shapeways set?

The cable end of the pin was a design copy of what I used for the manually built pins.
I measured with calipers the butt-splice I used. Digikey PN WM2973-ND
0192150046.jpg

The depth and wall thickness should be the same (for one side since it is for a pin, not a splice)
This can be used with 2 kinds of crimpers, one is a proper one, but costs over 3000$, the other is a hammer kind, it is only ~50$
0192940008.jpg


The one thing I wasn't sure about is how hard the silver will be compared to the butt-splice which is made from some kind of tinned copper alloy.

I will update the pins to have a thinner wall and deeper pocket (1.5" deep), but please give me some dimensions on how thick the outer wall should be.
Also, how about making the pin itself a little hollow to save on silver? (Just adding a cone shaped recess about half way down) Of course the wall thickness of the pin will have priority. The conductivity of solid silver is just so overkill.

How about shapeway's tolerance? where they able to get close enough to 9.0mm in diameter?

I'll update the shapeways file to v4.1
 
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