Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

[EVDrive]

I think for this warranty to mean anything solid, we have to understand what 8 bars mean... as a percentage compared to a new 100% capacity battery. Bars are not standard and uniform in their current form. They also have to explain and implement their upgraded bar measurement system on 2011 and 2012 Leafs. Once we get to that point we can understand what exactly this new warranty means. While they are rolling out the upgraded capacity measurement upgrade, they should add in the % state of charge to 2011 and 2012 Leafs as well.

 

[vrwl]

The specifics of this new limited warranty coverage will be communicated to each owner in a dedicated communication early next year. The expanded warranty coverage will apply in the United States to the upcoming Model Year 2013 Nissan LEAF upon its release. Importantly, Nissan will provide this expanded coverage to all model year 2011 and 2012 Nissan LEAFs sold and distributed by Nissan in the United States to date, effective upon a date to be announced but which is anticipated to be in the Spring of 2013.

First question regarding this statement.... how will this be communicated to owners of Pre-Owned/Used LEAFs? Nissan Corporate has no idea who I am and that I own a LEAF. I was told by the dealership where I took my car for it's one year battery checkup that the information about my ownership of the car is not communicated with Corporate by the dealership. The dealership has that info based on my service request, but they specifically told me they don't share that information with Corporate. And since I didn't purchase my car directly from Nissan, it causes me concern that I will not get the limited warranty coverage information communicated to me directly by Nissan.

Second, and more importantly... WILL this coverage be in effect for the car, no matter if it is the original owner, the 2nd owner or the 3rd/4th/5th owner of the car, as long as the 5 years/60k miles has not yet been hit? The statement says "Nissan will provide this expanded coverage to all model year 2011 and 2012 Nissan LEAFs sold and distributed by Nissan in the United States to date, effective upon a date to be announced but which is anticipated to be in the Spring of 2013." My car was not sold to me by Nissan, so does this cause a problem for those of us who have purchased pre-owned LEAFs?

 

[TonyWilliams]

coverage to all model year 2011 and 2012 Nissan LEAFs sold and distributed by Nissan in the United States to date, effective upon a date to be announced but which is anticipated to be in the Spring of 2013." My car was not sold to me by Nissan, so does this cause a problem for those of us who have purchased pre-owned LEAFs?

It's against the law for Nissan to be the dealer in the USA (which is the problem Tesla is trying to work around).

Don't worry, the dealers will know about the warranty, and your coverage will be based on some real simple data:

1 - VIN
2 - Delivery date
3 - Mileage
4 - Capacity of the battery

 

[tomsax]

I think for this warranty to mean anything solid, we have to understand what 8 bars mean... as a percentage compared to a new 100% capacity battery. Bars are not standard and uniform in their current form. They also have to explain and implement their upgraded bar measurement system on 2011 and 2012 Leafs. Once we get to that point we can understand what exactly this new warranty means. While they are rolling out the upgraded capacity measurement upgrade, they should add in the % state of charge to 2011 and 2012 Leafs as well.

Actually, we don't want the percent state of charge, at least not the way it's defined today as being the percent of the pack's current capacity, a constantly moving target.

We need the state of charge in absolute energy units, something like gids that go down as the pack loses capacity, or percent of an ideal full new pack.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Why not wait for the warranty specifics and then go from there? The letter was general, wait for the fine print on coverage. There is no point in speculating on terms that are not yet listed in detail.

 

[cwerdna]

I think for this warranty to mean anything solid, we have to understand what 8 bars mean... as a percentage compared to a new 100% capacity battery. Bars are not standard and uniform in their current form. They also have to explain and implement their upgraded bar measurement system on 2011 and 2012 Leafs.

Yep, this is something that needs to go on an action item list for Nissan that someone needs to maintain. I've asked for it at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11043&p=253759&hilit=action+items#p253759" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[RegGuheert]

Read the other way around, they are not going to do anything until you are down to 8 bars, which means you have lost 4 bars. Using this criteria, few of the Phoenix or Texas cars would qualify...

I agree that few would qualify TODAY, but we are only two years in. I'm not convinced that ANY LEAF in Phoenix will make it five years or 60,000 miles without losing four bars.

 

[leafkabob]

Reading this thread reminds me of the "Early Capacity Loss" thread. For the most part, those not affected by the early degradation had different opinions from those that were affected. With the exception of Silverleaf (who still has 11 bars) and TickTock (who as I recall had already decided to stick it out with his leaf), most of the Arizona responses are not favorable.

I don't think this warranty amounts to much. I doubt that anyone in the temperate zones will ever get to 8 bars within the 5yr/60K timeframe. So for those folks, the only benefit to the warranty is . . . peace of mind?

Hot climate purchasers may end up using this warranty. But what will they really get? An assurance that at the end of 5 yr/60K they will have a car with "approximately" 70% capacity.

Whether that is a value is up to each individual. If a prospective buyer wallks into an AZ showroom today and is told about the warranty, and is told that AZ cars will drop capacity faster than cars in temperate climates, then that person will have to decide if having a barely usable leaf at the end of the warranty period is worth it.

But for those of us who were not told prior to purchase that we could expect to drop capacity at a faster rate (for example, first bar at 6700 miles (DesertDenizen), or in my case 9500 miles), then this warranty does nothing for us.

I intend to continue with my buyback.

 

[RegGuheert]

But for those of us who were not told prior to purchase that we could expect to drop capacity at a faster rate (for example, first bar at 6700 miles (DesertDenizen), or in my case 9500 miles), then this warranty does nothing for us.

This statement does not make sense to me without further information. Perhaps you are unable to use your LEAF unless it has more than 50 miles of range? Otherwise, I expect that both you and DesertDenizen will likely receive new batteries under this warranty. If so, then you would have the choice to either keep it and experience the degradation a second time or sell it with the new battery. (I suppose they could patch it up to get you to 70%, but I doubt it would make sense for Nissan to do that.)

I think there will be a bigger issue with LEAF owners in Texas or elsewhere who lose their fourth bar just after the warranty expires.

I intend to continue with my buyback.

I certainly can't blame anyone who wants a buyback for a car which does not match its representations. I would advise doing it soon, since I wonder if this warranty might become the sole remedy in the future.

 

[Stoaty]

Whether that is a value is up to each individual. If a prospective buyer wallks into an AZ showroom today and is told about the warranty, and is told that AZ cars will drop capacity faster than cars in temperate climates, then that person will have to decide if having a barely usable leaf at the end of the warranty period is worth it.

I am still waiting to see this implemented, but not holding my breath. This is the part they need to fix going forward, in addition to a buyback program for those in very hot climates.

 

[leafkabob]

But for those of us who were not told prior to purchase that we could expect to drop capacity at a faster rate (for example, first bar at 6700 miles (DesertDenizen), or in my case 9500 miles), then this warranty does nothing for us.

This statement does not make sense to me without further information. Perhaps you are unable to use your LEAF unless it has more than 50 miles of range? Otherwise, I expect that both you and DesertDenizen will likely receive new batteries under this warranty. If so, then you would have the choice to either keep it and experience the degradation a second time or sell it with the new battery. (I suppose they could patch it up to get you to 70%, but I doubt it would make sense for Nissan to do that.)

I think there will be a bigger issue with LEAF owners in Texas or elsewhere who lose their fourth bar just after the warranty expires.

I intend to continue with my buyback.

I certainly can't blame anyone who wants a buyback for a car which does not match its representations. I would advise doing it soon, since I wonder if this warranty might become the sole remedy in the future.

Reg, I don't think this warranty is going to do me much good. I expect to drop to 9 bars next summer. If Nissan's claim that degradation levels off, I MAY stay at 9 bars for two more years (completing the 5yr/60K period). If so, the warranty does me no good. Yes, if I drop to 8 bars I will get another battery, bringing me to "approx. 70%" capacity, or 9 bars.

But my point was really about the lack of disclosure. This warranty will make sure that I have approx. 70% capacity, while other leaf owners with similar cars will have 80-90% more capacity. So making sure I have a barely usable leaf does not make up for the lack of disclosure prior to the sale.

 

[RegGuheert]

But my point was really about the lack of disclosure. This warranty will make sure that I have approx. 70% capacity, while other leaf owners with similar cars will have 80-90% more capacity. So making sure I have a barely usable leaf does not make up for the lack of disclosure prior to the sale.

Understood and agreed. That has been my main issue all along.

Unfortunately they (Nissan, dealers, etc.) are still selling this as a 100-mile car with no mention of degradation. I've gone 100 miles on a single charge exactly once, and that was somewhat painful.

 

[thankyouOB]

-2

I have an idea. Sue your parents for bringing you into this imperfect world where people try new things... and sue the doctors at the hospital and your first grade teacher because you were not the teachers pet and your paper delivery guy for not exceeding your paper delivery expectations when city rains.

Seriously, our society is way to litigious. It should be obvious to everyone who is not Albert Einstein that Nissan and all the other EV manufacturers out there are bringing to market products that have accelerated testing and there is some risk to those who are buying this innovative technology. If you didn't understand that, I have a golden gate bridge to sell you. Nissan is trying to come up with a reasonable solution for this less than perfect situation. Give them some credit and some time to see how this all unfolds before going for the nuclear option. Lawsuits should be a last resort when there are no other reasonable options and we are not there yet so throwing out the lawsuit , which we all know is an option, does not add to the debate but it does irritate me and other reasonable people so thanks for adding nothing helpful to the discussion.

+1 It is my opinion that Nissan knew there were problems and still rushed the car to market. The only way to find this out would be through litigation.

the only way to know whether Nissan was fair or foul in the development and marketing of the LEAF is to go ahead with that lawsuit and get all the corporate emails between engineering and the decisionmakers.

hold your horses EVDrive.
i did not call for suing Nissan and if you read and then quoted from my entire post that would be obvious.
I concluded my post with this:
all that into account, my experience has been very positive after 16 months; colored by living in the perfect EV climate and having L1 charging at work about 6 months into the game.
so i have a warm spot for NISSAN. the car works for me.
regardless, i want a battery replacement price and i want a 10-bar warranty.

my statement was NOT advocating a lawsuit, it was simply stating the obvious fact, to me at least, that the only way to know the truth about the Nissan chain of decisions (I gave the tire example in the post) with regard to creating their finished product in 2011 and 2012 is to sue them and do discovery. ditto about this new warranty, which i rate neutral; as with the 9-bar floor under the battery degradation, i think it does not match the Nissan marketing/driving advice about 10 bars as the sweet spot.

clearly, that post is not calling for a lawsuit, it is a wistful statement about truth in marketing our commercial society.
,
to be clear, i did not say that suing Nissan is a good idea. i did not call for it.
i just said that was the ONLY way we would know the truth.
short of a lawsuit and discovery all we will ever have on these two main issues are our guesses and supposition.

 

[LEAFfan]

I will have to take acception to this. Manufacturers do not repair vehicles under warrantee, they replace. Technitians take whole modules out and replace with another module. It takes a lot less time to replace an engine than it does to take it apart and replace a piston.
A pro-rated engine under warrantee? I do not think so.

So let me get this right Nissan is going to replace a battery with 9 bars remaining with another defective battery with 9 bars remaining. This is good? Am I missing something?

Yes, you missed something. They will fix or replace the pack when it reaches 8 bars, not nine. And the fix is a minimum of 9 bars, but may be 10 or more.

Sorry but it makes perfect sense. If an engine explodes or needs to be replaced under warrantee a car company does not find a used engine and slap that under the hood. At the very least they will put a remanufactured engine in or a new one. There is no way that I would except a car company pulling a used engine out of another vehicle and slapping it into a car.

"all or nothing" arguments dont work here. the manufacturer is only responsible for fixing what is broken. an entirely new engine is probably not in the deal just as an entirely new battery which we all know to degrade with use being ENTIRE normal is not in the deal either. a pro-rated exchange is most likely and we will have to wait on details for that.

 

[TomT]

Perhaps true but it still means you could be driving around - or attempting to - with a significant loss for quite some time before you drop that 4th bar and they will do anything about it... It also means that Leafs that are approaching 60,000 miles and/or 5 years will be worth very little...

It would make more sense to prorate the warranty along the lines of it covering 1 bar loss the first year, 2 the second year, etc... Since the loss is supposedly non-linear, that would also equate well with the non-linearity of the capacity gauge...

And in any event, Nissan continues to hurt their cause by mouthing the imaginary 100 mile range claim!

Read the other way around, they are not going to do anything until you are down to 8 bars, which means you have lost 4 bars. Using this criteria, few of the Phoenix or Texas cars would qualify...

I agree that few would qualify TODAY, but we are only two years in. I'm not convinced that ANY LEAF in Phoenix will make it five years or 60,000 miles without losing four bars.

 

[evnow]

Here's exactly what I'm looking for.

I want Nissan to say to affected owners, "We are working around the clock for a solution to the high-temp degradation, through either a different battery chemistry or by retrofitting a TMS into the current battery system. When we have solved the problem, then we will retrofit your car and replace your current battery with a new one."

I don't think your want will be met. You have unrealistic expectations.

You expect them to tell you what they will offer you - before they have figured out whether they can do it or not. No business will do that - unless they are 100% sure they can offer you that replacement.

I don't think they can retrofit a TMS - there isn't any space for that. They are always working on different battery chemistry ...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think there will be a bigger issue with LEAF owners in Texas or elsewhere who lose their fourth bar just after the warranty expires.

I intend to continue with my buyback.

I certainly can't blame anyone who wants a buyback for a car which does not match its representations. I would advise doing it soon, since I wonder if this warranty might become the sole remedy in the future.

ABSOLUTELY take the buy-back before they change their mind.

If you still want a LEAF, lease one for 24 months with a brand new battery, not a maybe 70% warranty one.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I think there will be a bigger issue with LEAF owners in Texas or elsewhere who lose their fourth bar just after the warranty expires.

I intend to continue with my buyback.

I certainly can't blame anyone who wants a buyback for a car which does not match its representations. I would advise doing it soon, since I wonder if this warranty might become the sole remedy in the future.

ABSOLUTELY take the buy-back before they change their mind.

If you still want a LEAF, lease one for 24 months with a brand new battery, not a maybe 70% warranty one.

No brainer! If NIssan offered to buy my car back I would do it instantly. Then turn around and get one of the insane lease deals or even pay some more for a 2013 lease. A perfect capacity car has already depreciated more than the total cost of a 2-3 year lease.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Unfortunately they (Nissan, dealers, etc.) are still selling this as a 100-mile car with no mention of degradation. I've gone 100 miles on a single charge exactly once, and that was somewhat painful.

At the San Diego Auto Show, they were happily telling everybody "100 mile average".

 

[TomT]

+1 x10^2!

No brainer! If NIssan offered to buy my car back I would do it instantly. Then turn around and get one of the insane lease deals or even pay some more for a 2013 lease. A perfect capacity car has already depreciated more than the total cost of a 2-3 year lease.