No Grid Power = No Solar Power

[RegGuheert]

Welcome, ecologicAll!

With a bi-modal system like Xantrex XW (Schneider) or SMA Sunny Island, no mater the power outage, your house will always have power for your tv, lights, even your Leaf

Using a grid-tie no backup system is non sense, at any event with the power company like over voltage, under voltage, Hz, etc... the system will shut down and you stop producing power

We recently had a rather civil argument about this exact topic very recently, so rather than having it all over again, I will simply direct you to it: 7.2 kw grid-tie system in Rhode Island.

 

[esounds]

Interesting link... I'm not really sure how solar is making us less vulnerable to an attack with the current rules governing solar power generation without grid power.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-23/rooftop-solar-seen-protecting-u-s-power-grid-from-attack.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[RegGuheert]

Interesting link... I'm not really sure how solar is making us less vulnerable to an attack with the current rules governing solar power generation without grid power.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-23/rooftop-solar-seen-protecting-u-s-power-grid-from-attack.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Agreed. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either.

 

[Smidge204]

I'm not aware of any laws that prevent power generation without grid power. What the laws prevent is you feeding power into a grid that is damaged or not functioning properly.

You can generate all you want, but it needs to stay on your property!
=Smidge=

 

[RegGuheert]

I'm not aware of any laws that prevent power generation without grid power. What the laws prevent is you feeding power into a grid that is damaged or not functioning properly.

You can generate all you want, but it needs to stay on your property!
=Smidge=

I think you are right that is what he is talking about:

"Consumers are starting to understand they want control,” Wellinghoff said. “They want some ability to keep their lights on when that next storm comes along."

Still, off-grid PV is now a small percentage of what is being installed, so most PV generators still depend on the grid to function.

 

[AndyH]

Off grid and/or grid-tied with backup is a small percentage today but is growing. And rightfully so.

http://www.eei.org/ourissues/finance/Documents/disruptivechallenges.pdf
http://grist.org/climate-energy/solar-panels-could-destroy-u-s-utilities-according-to-u-s-utilities/

 

[RegGuheert]

http://www.eei.org/ourissues/finance/Documents/disruptivechallenges.pdf
http://grist.org/climate-energy/solar-panels-could-destroy-u-s-utilities-according-to-u-s-utilities/

Thanks for the links! Very interesting!

Off grid and/or grid-tied with backup is a small percentage today but is growing. And rightfully so.

Perhaps the total installed base of off-grid and grid-tied with backup PV is growing, but I will challenge any suggestion that the percentage of off-grid and grid-tied with back PV to total PV is growing. You'll have to supply hard data to support such a claim.

At the same time, I will admit that in the future the only way PV owners will be able to stop the utilities from gouging them will be to go off-grid. You can see the changes already happening in Europe as PV becomes a larger and larger portion of the generation on the grid. And even that may be a challenge if the utilities succeed in implementing fees for departing customers, as was proposed in the paper you linked.

 

[AndyH]

Perhaps the total installed base of off-grid and grid-tied with backup PV is growing, but I will challenge any suggestion that the percentage of off-grid and grid-tied with back PV to total PV is growing. You'll have to supply hard data to support such a claim.

Numbers can be difficult for me sometimes. Help me out, please. How in the WORLD can the total installed base be growing if the "percentage" doesn't grow with it? :lol:

It's continuing to grow all around the world, Reg - in EXACTLY the same way the developing world didn't start their communications development with telegraph lines - they're going cellular, distributed power, etc.

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/08/18/living-off-the-grid-not-just-for-the-amish-anymore/
http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/respon...-why-more-people-are-choosing-to-live-life-un
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/11/amid-hard-times-a-view-from-off-the-grid/
http://news.thomasnet.com/green_cle...uflage-pants-and-a-fear-of-black-helicopters/

So how many people are we talking about? It’s hard to say. In 2006, Home Power magazine estimated that more than 180,000 homes were supplying their own power (or microgenerating), with that figure jumping about 33 percent each year. If this figure and growth rate are correct, then more than half a million households in this country live off the grid today. While some people live completely off-grid – no electric grid tie-in, no sewer or city water connections and no communications or media lines – many practice a mix of on- and off-grid (staying off the electric grid but remaining connected to city sewers, for example, or microgenerating but maintaining electric grid-tie in case of emergency or for the purpose of selling microgenerated power back to your electric utility).

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/02/01/haitis-solar-powered-hospital/

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/02/02...-launches-campaign-“energy-is-a-human-right”/

There are many who believe nearly 1.5 billion people in the world who live without access to modern forms of energy should have a voice to affect change for the better. Among those with the mission: the Solar Electric Light Fund (SELF). The nonprofit has been working to eliminate energy poverty through the use of solar power and today it announced the launch of “Energy is a Human Right,” a campaign showing support for those living in energy poverty.

I think 33% per year in the US is pretty good growth - and eventually that'll show up in the 'percentage of total electric users' as well...

 

[RegGuheert]

Numbers can be difficult for me sometimes. Help me out, please. How in the WORLD can the total installed base be growing if the "percentage" doesn't grow with it? :lol:

If grid-tied PV with no backup grows at a faster rate than off-grid and grid-tied with backup, then the percentage of total PV that is off-grid or grid-tied with backup is dropping.

I think 33% per year in the US is pretty good growth - and eventually that'll show up in the 'percentage of total electric users' as well...

It is pretty good growth. But you are changing the discussion if you think we are talking about the "percentage of electric users". For reference, here is the quote you originally responded to:

Still, off-grid PV is now a small percentage of what is being installed, so most PV generators still depend on the grid to function.

My statement is clear, the percent of all PV installations today that are off-grid is small. NOT the percent of electric users.

So, even if there has been 33% growth of off-grid PV since 2006, the growth of grid-tied PV with no backup during that time has been explosive. That is why off-grid and grid-tied with backup PV is such a small percentage of PV today. At some point In the past, ALL PV installations were off-grid. While installations have steadily grown, off-grid PV has moved from being 100% of PV installations to being a very small percentage of the total. As such, they are a LONG way from providing significant security for our grid. Unfortunately, those installations will always be much more expensive and much less reliable and efficient than purely grid-tied PV, so they will likely remain a small niche for the foreseeable future.

In the meantime, grid-tied PV will continue to bring the total cost of generating electricity down and will therefore continue to grow until the grid cannot hold any more. As we approach grid saturation, off-grid technologies will start to represent a meaningful fraction of the total. Unfortunately, higher costs will come along with that change.

 

[AndyH]

Numbers can be difficult for me sometimes. Help me out, please. How in the WORLD can the total installed base be growing if the "percentage" doesn't grow with it? :lol:

If grid-tied PV with no backup grows at a faster rate than off-grid and grid-tied with backup, then the percentage of total PV that is off-grid or grid-tied with backup is dropping.

I think 33% per year in the US is pretty good growth - and eventually that'll show up in the 'percentage of total electric users' as well...

It is pretty good growth. But you are changing the discussion if you think we are talking about the "percentage of electric users". For reference, here is the quote you originally responded to:

Still, off-grid PV is now a small percentage of what is being installed, so most PV generators still depend on the grid to function.

My statement is clear, the percent of all PV installations today that are off-grid is small. NOT the percent of electric users.

So, even if there has been 33% growth of off-grid PV since 2006, the growth of grid-tied PV with no backup during that time has been explosive. That is why off-grid and grid-tied with backup PV is such a small percentage of PV today. At some point In the past, ALL PV installations were off-grid. While installations have steadily grown, off-grid PV has moved from being 100% of PV installations to being a very small percentage of the total. As such, they are a LONG way from providing significant security for our grid. Unfortunately, those installations will always be much more expensive and much less reliable and efficient than purely grid-tied PV, so they will likely remain a small niche for the foreseeable future.

In the meantime, grid-tied PV will continue to bring the total cost of generating electricity down and will therefore continue to grow until the grid cannot hold any more. As we approach grid saturation, off-grid technologies will start to represent a meaningful fraction of the total. Unfortunately, higher costs will come along with that change.

That was my point, Reg - I'm looking at off-grid or grid-tied with storage VS. the total number of electrified buildings. It appears to me that you're looking at off-grid or grid-tied with storage VS. solar PV. That's OK, it's valid, but I think it's cherrypicking. At the end of the day, when it comes to resiliency, when the grid goes down, only the off-gridders or grid-tied folks with storage will have lights. I don't care how many solar panels are on the grid - I want to know how many people will be able to keep their food from rotting in the refrigerator next time a superstorm rolls through. And that's the point of the thread, I think...

 

[garygid]

Does the Sunny Boy inverter have a control input so that
it can be commanded (by the Sunny Island, or whatever)
to "throttle back" (reduce) its power output to any level
less than its full (depending upon the amount of sunshine)
output (that it normally would be sending to the house and
the grid?

Or, does the Sunny Island just turn the Sunny Boy inverter
Off (and later, back On)?

Normally, the typical PV inverter is designed to produce maximum
amount of 240v AC power that it can, given the PV panels and their
DC output from the sunshine the the moment.

They are not (but easily could be) designed to lower their production
to just match the present load. If they cannot "push" all their output
into the lines, they sense the voltage rise (or fall), and just turn off, and
then monitor the line voltage (at perhaps 10 minute intervals)
for "stable voltage has returned", and then they re-connect and
start pushing max per again.

Producing just the right amount of power, to feed just the wall-warts,
...

 

[QueenBee]

I don't care how many solar panels are on the grid - I want to know how many people will be able to keep their food from rotting in the refrigerator next time a superstorm rolls through. And that's the point of the thread, I think...

If that is what you want to know then you need to include all the people who have fossil fuel generators as backup. Much cheaper to buy a ICE generator and convert it to natural gas. Still has maintenance costs though.

 

[Smidge204]

After four days without power following Sandy we decided to hook up the generator. We waited four days because that's about how long we can last without refrigeration (And about how long I can tolerate cold showers!)

Gasoline was tough to get because at first none of the gas stations had power either, then there was a supply problem with hours-long lines etc. We don't have natural gas (electric appliances, oil heat) but I suppose propane could have been an option...

Solar with some batteries probably would have kept us going (and I've been collecting data ever since to determine the optimal size).
=Smidge=

 

[thew]

I was looking into buying a solar system and was told by the sales person that here in California PG and E requires your panels to cut off power to your house if there is a grid failure. One of the main reasons I was going to get one was so that I have a backup for the Leaf. She said that since we only use 60$ a month in electricity that leasing doesn't really make sense. Anyone have any similar experiences or stories to share? Is there a way around this? This seems like the most backwards system to me. If your going to have distributed power then why kill one of the major advantages of having one? (During a catastrophic failure)

Nope.. Untrue.. You need to talk to a real contractor.. Our system is setup to Always power our house.. When the Grid goes down we do not loose power.. In fact the switch is so fast that our computers do not feel it.. That is because the Battery back up is always active running the homes circuits.. When the Grid is down the Batteries are still running our systems. They are just not recharging with any grid power.. Only Sun.. If its at night then they are only drawing from the Batteries.. Edison nor PG&E have no requirement for your system to shut down.. But you must be mindful if they are working on your Grid in your area.. They know your system will be back-feeding the Grid.. And may ask you to shut your Main off to keep from Back feeding the grid.. But you will still have Power..

Do not believe everything you hear.. The folks on the phone usually have no Idea.. Just get a Good Electrical Contractor and Install your Off Grid ready system like ours.. you will never be without power!.

 

[thew]

I don't care how many solar panels are on the grid - I want to know how many people will be able to keep their food from rotting in the refrigerator next time a superstorm rolls through. And that's the point of the thread, I think...

'

If that is what you want to know then you need to include all the people who have fossil fuel generators as backup. Much cheaper to buy a ICE generator and convert it to natural gas. Still has maintenance costs though.

As long as the sun comes up my system will keep my food cold for the life of the Batteries.. If the sun does not come up my Batteries will last for 2 weeks with our 50amp service.. So its the perfect system for you in the Storm Ravaged areas. As long as the Array does not get sucked off your roof you will have power for the life cycle of your Batteries and the PV array.

 

[thew]

Stick with Outback controls.. And yes if you use good equipment like Outback the the Array is constantly adjusted to max output for the surface of the array. In other words there is logic that sense the best out put on the array and matches that to the rest of the Array. But you would never want it to "throttle back".. if you are producing more than your Battery back up needs it sends the extra to the Grid and makes your meter spin backwards.. Thus you will get credit for your Production when you are not using it all..

Does the Sunny Boy inverter have a control input so that
it can be commanded (by the Sunny Island, or whatever)
to "throttle back" (reduce) its power output to any level
less than its full (depending upon the amount of sunshine)
output (that it normally would be sending to the house and
the grid?

Or, does the Sunny Island just turn the Sunny Boy inverter
Off (and later, back On)?

Normally, the typical PV inverter is designed to produce maximum
amount of 240v AC power that it can, given the PV panels and their
DC output from the sunshine the the moment.

They are not (but easily could be) designed to lower their production
to just match the present load. If they cannot "push" all their output
into the lines, they sense the voltage rise (or fall), and just turn off, and
then monitor the line voltage (at perhaps 10 minute intervals)
for "stable voltage has returned", and then they re-connect and
start pushing max per again.

Producing just the right amount of power, to feed just the wall-warts,
...

 

[LEAFfan]

My plan is to wait a few years, add some graphene panels and graphene SCs, and go completely off the grid. UCLA is making great progress with their graphene SCs.

 

[QueenBee]

I was looking into buying a solar system and was told by the sales person that here in California PG and E requires your panels to cut off power to your house if there is a grid failure. One of the main reasons I was going to get one was so that I have a backup for the Leaf. She said that since we only use 60$ a month in electricity that leasing doesn't really make sense. Anyone have any similar experiences or stories to share? Is there a way around this? This seems like the most backwards system to me. If your going to have distributed power then why kill one of the major advantages of having one? (During a catastrophic failure)

Nope.. Untrue.. You need to talk to a real contractor.. Our system is setup to Always power our house.. When the Grid goes down we do not loose power.. In fact the switch is so fast that our computers do not feel it.. That is because the Battery back up is always active running the homes circuits.. When the Grid is down the Batteries are still running our systems. They are just not recharging with any grid power.. Only Sun.. If its at night then they are only drawing from the Batteries.. Edison nor PG&E have no requirement for your system to shut down.. But you must be mindful if they are working on your Grid in your area.. They know your system will be back-feeding the Grid.. And may ask you to shut your Main off to keep from Back feeding the grid.. But you will still have Power..

Do not believe everything you hear.. The folks on the phone usually have no Idea.. Just get a Good Electrical Contractor and Install your Off Grid ready system like ours.. you will never be without power!.

Uh, are you sure your house is actually always running from batteries? That seems hard on your batteries and that you'd need a large inverter.

It's very true that you can NOT back feed the grid during a power outage. You either have to have a manual switch that turns off grid power or an automatic transfer switch.

If your system is backfeeding the grid when the grid is down you need to have an electrical contractor remedy this ASAP as this can't be good for your equipment, your neighbors electronics, nor the safety of people working on the grid.

 

[Smidge204]

But you would never want it to "throttle back".. if you are producing more than your Battery back up needs it sends the extra to the Grid and makes your meter spin backwards.. Thus you will get credit for your Production when you are not using it all..

I think the context of here is what happens when the grid goes down, and now you are producing a surplus (possibly several kw worth). Assuming your batteries are topped off, you need to shed that extra power somehow. There's a reason off-grid systems often have dump loads, and a smart inverter will be able to throttle or disable your PV system so you don't need to dump it.

My plan is to wait a few years, add some graphene panels and graphene SCs, and go completely off the grid. UCLA is making great progress with their graphene SCs.

"A few years" is easily going to be a few decades, if ever. Get what you can now, if you're ready now, and upgrade later!
=Smidge=

 

[LEAFfan]

With our two Utilities the PV system is required to automatically shut down if the grid goes down.