Now I'm getting nervous...

[gozer]

I have a long history with toyota ice cars. remarkable longevity and reliability. I have an Avalon (2005) with 244000 miles. It has a powersteering leak and a couple of other things that need fixing. My main problem with the car is $225 a month for gas. I drive 1800 miles a month back and forth to work. Also with the miles piling up one day something will explode. I really want to stop paying for gas at this rate and I'd love to drive an electric. I'm reading what seems (to me) to be lots of 'leaf won't start' and 'hv isolation' warnings and the like. Quite a few of these problems result in extended stays at dealerships that 'might' end up w a loaner for the duration.Or the owner having to do quite a bit of repairing themselves.
I need this car to be very reliable. I ride motorcycles so I understand keeping a small 12v battery charged up. I am looking at a '20 SV + with 50k miles. A big concern is the dealer who has it is not a nissan shop. So no one to show me any HV battery diagnostics. I have ordered a dongle but am having trouble downloading leafspy. I wont have either by tmrw when I see the car. Am I worried for no reason? Are these cars quite long lived and reliable and I'm just seeing several "problem cars'?
Please give me your opinions, gentleladies and gentlemen!

 

[cornbinder89]

Well, there is no straight answer. There is good and bad. Sometimes I feel, when I come here that no one but me has a working car they are happy with, but reality is more like those that don't have problems don't post.
Yes there are things to watch out for. low bars on the SOH on the dashboard would be a 5 alarm for me. They can be reset and look good when they are not, but no one would (or even could) set it to read lower than it really is.
The question is can the car realistically make the kind of trips you need it to? If it does in the warm weather, can it do it in the cold?
I'd want to test drive it as far as I plan to drive every day, If it can do that and have plenty of range left for colder days, it would be worth looking at it closer.
Don't go off what the dashboard say it can do, put it to the test and see what it can do.
If the dealer balks at such a long test, walk away, nothing is worth finding out too late it will not do the task you bought it for.
Mine does what I bought it for, I would love if it would do more, but I went in with my eyes wide open and haven't been disappointed. It costs about half what my Camry did for the same trips.

 

[BillAinCT]

^ is spot on. Plus I would be very surprised if a 4 year old Leaf SOH was over 90%. So consider the 62kWh to be 54kWh at best. You didn't state the length of your one-way commute or if you can charge at that location. Nor your region where if you have mild or no cold weather that's a big difference. If you're expecting to make a round trip and it's very cold and you need heat, that ~54kWh Leaf is now closer to ~40kWh. All estimations, just like the car's display is for range. The LeafSpy battery cell display would help to see if a cell or 2 are low, but later MY Leaf's don't often get the bad cells as the older Leafs did and do.

 

[MozzoAU]

Ditto to both the above posts. While there are car brands with more complex battery setups than the Nissan Leaf, these cars are equally well engineered as Toyota vehicles in general IMO. I've had my 2012 leaf a few years now and besides the obvious battery degradation its been perfected for my use case. As stated above, do a real world's test drive to check the range meets your needs. Be prepared to need to fight some level of range angsiety and push it to the limit. If it makes it with adequate spare for worst case scenarios you're on a winner.

 

[martinwinlow]

I have a long history with toyota ice cars. remarkable longevity and reliability. I have an Avalon (2005) with 244000 miles. It has a powersteering leak and a couple of other things that need fixing. My main problem with the car is $225 a month for gas. I drive 1800 miles a month back and forth to work. Also with the miles piling up one day something will explode. I really want to stop paying for gas at this rate and I'd love to drive an electric. I'm reading what seems (to me) to be lots of 'leaf won't start' and 'hv isolation' warnings and the like. Quite a few of these problems result in extended stays at dealerships that 'might' end up w a loaner for the duration.Or the owner having to do quite a bit of repairing themselves.
I need this car to be very reliable. I ride motorcycles so I understand keeping a small 12v battery charged up. I am looking at a '20 SV + with 50k miles. A big concern is the dealer who has it is not a nissan shop. So no one to show me any HV battery diagnostics. I have ordered a dongle but am having trouble downloading leafspy. I wont have either by tmrw when I see the car. Am I worried for no reason? Are these cars quite long lived and reliable and I'm just seeing several "problem cars'?
Please give me your opinions, gentleladies and gentlemen!

"My main problem with the car is $225 a month for gas."... and not that with every gallon of 'gas' your car consumes you ram home yet another nail in the coffin of the environment? Even if you do not care or do not believe in 'global warming', *surely* you care that the children in the towns and cities in which you drive are basically being poisoned by the muck that is a by-product of burning fossil-fuels? Not to mention all the wars fought over oil security, yada, yada... When are people going to wake up? Not before it is all far too late, I suspect.

And Toyota epitomises the whole stinking corrupt ICE car industry. They have exactly zero interest in a transition to sustainable transport (like most of the big legacy car makers) as, if they did, they would have used the gargantuan lead they had in the industry after they developed the fantastically successful Prius - and would be where Tesla is now. Instead of which they are still clinging to the abject failure of their hydrogen fuel cell dream - as anyone with a whit of sense and 30 minutes on the internet could have predicted years ago.

But... to answer your question, you have only to consider that the the typical modern ICEV has some 250 moving parts in the engine and another similar number in the gearbox compared to, what... 6?... in an EV (bearings aside)? EVs are fantastically more reliable than ICEVs and essentially require next to zero maintenance. The hysterical tripe you keep hearing in the media about EV fires and batteries dying is there because it sells well and generates lots of advertising revenue. There is zero context (as usual, these days) because if there were, it would be as plain as a pikestaff that the storey is at best grossly misrepresented or at worst a downright lie. And what isn't done to make money is orchestrated by Big Oil and Auto.

To illustrate my point on just *one* front: consider the number of news stories of burning EVs you have seen in the last 12 months and ask yourself how many included a statistic for ICEV car fires? Again 2 minutes on the interweb will tell you that in the US alone there are getting on for 170 thousand ICEV fires every year resulting in some 400 deaths. How often do those make the headlines?

Don't think about buying an EV - just buy it. But get it from either someone you know and trust or a good dealer or you stand just as much chance of buying a lemon as you would when buying and ICEV. And do get into the DIY side of electric drive train (including the battery) repairs. It *really* isn't rocket science, there is *oodles* of support on-line and at least you don't get covered in stinky dirty oil every time you 'have a tinker'!

 

[rsbrax]

"My main problem with the car is $225 a month for gas."... and not that with every gallon of 'gas' your car consumes you ram home yet another nail in the coffin of the environment? Even if you do not care or do not believe in 'global warming', *surely* you care that the children in the towns and cities in which you drive are basically being poisoned by the muck that is a by-product of burning fossil-fuels? Not to mention all the wars fought over oil security, yada, yada... When are people going to wake up? Not before it is all far too late, I suspect.

And Toyota epitomises the whole stinking corrupt ICE car industry. They have exactly zero interest in a transition to sustainable transport (like most of the big legacy car makers) as, if they did, they would have used the gargantuan lead they had in the industry after they developed the fantastically successful Prius - and would be where Tesla is now. Instead of which they are still clinging to the abject failure of their hydrogen fuel cell dream - as anyone with a whit of sense and 30 minutes on the internet could have predicted years ago.

But... to answer your question, you have only to consider that the the typical modern ICEV has some 250 moving parts in the engine and another similar number in the gearbox compared to, what... 6?... in an EV (bearings aside)? EVs are fantastically more reliable than ICEVs and essentially require next to zero maintenance. The hysterical tripe you keep hearing in the media about EV fires and batteries dying is there because it sells well and generates lots of advertising revenue. There is zero context (as usual, these days) because if there were, it would be as plain as a pikestaff that the storey is at best grossly misrepresented or at worst a downright lie. And what isn't done to make money is orchestrated by Big Oil and Auto.

To illustrate my point on just *one* front: consider the number of news stories of burning EVs you have seen in the last 12 months and ask yourself how many included a statistic for ICEV car fires? Again 2 minutes on the interweb will tell you that in the US alone there are getting on for 170 thousand ICEV fires every year resulting in some 400 deaths. How often do those make the headlines?

Don't think about buying an EV - just buy it. But get it from either someone you know and trust or a good dealer or you stand just as much chance of buying a lemon as you would when buying and ICEV. And do get into the DIY side of electric drive train (including the battery) repairs. It *really* isn't rocket science, there is *oodles* of support on-line and at least you don't get covered in stinky dirty oil every time you 'have a tinker'!

Agree with most of your post. However, the drive train battery generates 350+ volts which can be extremely lethal compared to 120 volts. So I would find a qualified technician to do any drive train battery repair work.

 

[nlspace]

90 miles a day round trip?

Take it for a 90 mile test drive, start with fully charged pack and see how well you can drive in terms of energy consumption, e.g. economizer-mode. There is a real-time measurement screen that will give you results on how you are doing.

Coasting toward red lights, stay off the brakes, easy on the throttle, lower speeds, etc. it is possible to get 4 miles per kWh of battery capacity. So 25kWh could get you 100 miles, with heat and A/C using whatever is available above that.

High speeds are not your friend in an EV, so a change in habits may be required.

 

[cornbinder89]

"My main problem with the car is $225 a month for gas."... and not that with every gallon of 'gas' your car consumes you ram home yet another nail in the coffin of the environment? Even if you do not care or do not believe in 'global warming', *surely* you care that the children in the towns and cities in which you drive are basically being poisoned by the muck that is a by-product of burning fossil-fuels? Not to mention all the wars fought over oil security, yada, yada... When are people going to wake up? Not before it is all far too late, I suspect.

And Toyota epitomises the whole stinking corrupt ICE car industry. They have exactly zero interest in a transition to sustainable transport (like most of the big legacy car makers) as, if they did, they would have used the gargantuan lead they had in the industry after they developed the fantastically successful Prius - and would be where Tesla is now. Instead of which they are still clinging to the abject failure of their hydrogen fuel cell dream - as anyone with a whit of sense and 30 minutes on the internet could have predicted years ago.

But... to answer your question, you have only to consider that the the typical modern ICEV has some 250 moving parts in the engine and another similar number in the gearbox compared to, what... 6?... in an EV (bearings aside)? EVs are fantastically more reliable than ICEVs and essentially require next to zero maintenance. The hysterical tripe you keep hearing in the media about EV fires and batteries dying is there because it sells well and generates lots of advertising revenue. There is zero context (as usual, these days) because if there were, it would be as plain as a pikestaff that the storey is at best grossly misrepresented or at worst a downright lie. And what isn't done to make money is orchestrated by Big Oil and Auto.

To illustrate my point on just *one* front: consider the number of news stories of burning EVs you have seen in the last 12 months and ask yourself how many included a statistic for ICEV car fires? Again 2 minutes on the interweb will tell you that in the US alone there are getting on for 170 thousand ICEV fires every year resulting in some 400 deaths. How often do those make the headlines?

Don't think about buying an EV - just buy it. But get it from either someone you know and trust or a good dealer or you stand just as much chance of buying a lemon as you would when buying and ICEV. And do get into the DIY side of electric drive train (including the battery) repairs. It *really* isn't rocket science, there is *oodles* of support on-line and at least you don't get covered in stinky dirty oil every time you 'have a tinker'!

I have to disagree with most of this post.
1st and foremost, the O/p'er was asking for advice on buying a car to meet his needs. " Just buying" an electric can leave him with a car that doesn't meet his needs, and that would make anyone sour on them.
Unless you generate your own power to recharge, you have no idea how much hydrocarbons are being put in the air for you to drive you "clean' car.
A Toyota Prius that gets around 50 MPG, it going to put very little pollution in the air.
If you want to start ragging on people, start with those that fly everywhere. It takes a huge amount to put a plane in the air and keep it there.
More harm than good is done by posts like this. If he/she find an electric that meets their needs, I think the car will "sell itself", however a rushed purchase that turns out it doesn't meet their needs, is more likely to turn them off permanently from electrics.
There is no one solution to the problem we are in with the climate, and saying "all you have to do is..." doesn't help.
If you live on a ranch in Montana,far from everything, an electric is not a good match.

 

[MikeinPA]

I have a long history with toyota ice cars. remarkable longevity and reliability. I have an Avalon (2005) with 244000 miles. It has a powersteering leak and a couple of other things that need fixing. My main problem with the car is $225 a month for gas. I drive 1800 miles a month back and forth to work. Also with the miles piling up one day something will explode. I really want to stop paying for gas at this rate and I'd love to drive an electric. I'm reading what seems (to me) to be lots of 'leaf won't start' and 'hv isolation' warnings and the like. Quite a few of these problems result in extended stays at dealerships that 'might' end up w a loaner for the duration.Or the owner having to do quite a bit of repairing themselves.
I need this car to be very reliable. I ride motorcycles so I understand keeping a small 12v battery charged up. I am looking at a '20 SV + with 50k miles. A big concern is the dealer who has it is not a nissan shop. So no one to show me any HV battery diagnostics. I have ordered a dongle but am having trouble downloading leafspy. I wont have either by tmrw when I see the car. Am I worried for no reason? Are these cars quite long lived and reliable and I'm just seeing several "problem cars'?
Please give me your opinions, gentleladies and gentlemen!

This vehicle has an excellent warranty on everything inside the battery enclosure--and this is where almost all the problems arise with these Leaf's. If you have a major issue, it will most likely be in the enclosure. Then the issue comes with whether the dealer will a) recognize the problem in writing and b) proceed promptly with warranty work. There is a bell curve in the kind of experiences you can have at the dealer. Some have had truly wonderful experiences, and in my case I am holding down the other end of the curve where a) two local dealers refused to even discuss a warranty repair, despite complete evidence of a bad module(as defined by their repair manual and observed by their technicians) and b) every other step described in the owner's manual to get the warranty work approved met with complete failure. I ended up changing the bad module myself, replacing with a new stock module from Nissan, and all is well a year later.

So the key issue for you is not whether a 90 mile a day commute in a vehicle with +200 mile range will work--its whether you have a local dealer that will do the warranty work if needed.

Edit: have looked at the sub-400$ a month leases for the Model Y?

 

[MikeinPA]

I have to disagree with most of this post.
1st and foremost, the O/p'er was asking for advice on buying a car to meet his needs. " Just buying" an electric can leave him with a car that doesn't meet his needs, and that would make anyone sour on them.
Unless you generate your own power to recharge, you have no idea how much hydrocarbons are being put in the air for you to drive you "clean' car.
A Toyota Prius that gets around 50 MPG, it going to put very little pollution in the air.
If you want to start ragging on people, start with those that fly everywhere. It takes a huge amount to put a plane in the air and keep it there.
More harm than good is done by posts like this. If he/she find an electric that meets their needs, I think the car will "sell itself", however a rushed purchase that turns out it doesn't meet their needs, is more likely to turn them off permanently from electrics.
There is no one solution to the problem we are in with the climate, and saying "all you have to do is..." doesn't help.
If you live on a ranch in Montana,far from everything, an electric is not a good match.

Ethics change over time as new facts are learned. Burning hydrocarbons used to be just the way we got a convenient compact source of energy, but over the past thirty years it has become crystal clear that burning hydrocarbons is just terrible in so many ways, and we need to stop as quickly as possible. The facts are changing, and people working with a newer set of facts see burning hydrocarbons as huge ethical issue. People with an older set of facts wont see this as an issue--and may believe the people with the new set of facts are "ranting" or "ragging" .

For anyone interested in the CO2 intensity of their grid electricity, it varies hour by hour and you can see it here: https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards or here https://www.pjm.com/ or here https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html and so on.

Planes are responsible for a tiny fraction of global CO2 emissions.

There is no one solution to the problem we are in with the climate, and saying "all you have to do is..." doesn't help.

I don't think anyone suggested there is a single solution that does all, in fact, everyone paying attention to the problem knows that ALL solutions must be applied, as rapidly as possible.

 

[Araknai]

@gozer

I'm working on my 2nd Leaf battery upgrade right now. Big fan of the Leaf for it's accessibility and affordability these days, but if I were in your position I'd be looking for a high mileage 2020/2021 Tesla Model 3.. their batteries are just sooooo much more reliable. They do have a history of needing suspension work in the 60-100k mile range but the Leaf does too, and you're far less likely to get a battery/HV/drivetrain issue than with a Leaf.

I was looking on AutoTrader yesterday and saw a couple high mileage '20-21 3s listed for around 20k in NJ. If that was near me I'd be thinking hard on that.

 

[ride12myplug]

I really love my 2017 Leaf S (30 kWh). It has been 100% reliable, meets my retired needs perfectly, and feels good to drive it for all the reasons. Maybe I just got lucky? I did a lot of research about EVs and then models. Once I figured the Leaf was the right car to meet my needs, I looked locally in Maine but went to Carvana and got a great deal at the onset of Covid on a return from lease car and a great trade-in for my ICE car to boot. But maybe that is just my story - good luck with your choice of EV. John P.
































m

 

[LeftieBiker]

There are some 30kwh Leafs that seem to do just fine. That's the biggest Puzzle about them: that they are the only Nissan Leaf battery that ranges in longevity from " As bad as the 2011-2013 Canary Pack" to "As good as the 20115-2016 Lizard Pack"...

 

[gozer]

OK, thanks for all the input. I have figured out that all I need is a 50 mile range and the S model will do that easily even in the winter. I can charge a short walk from work and have plenty to get home without getting to 100%. And there is a low consumption route of the same length if I need it. It follows the hudson river and is mostly flat, speeds dont exceed 55 mph.
Martinwinlow,
I am VERY concerned about the upcoming climate disaster that awaits humanity and my 16 yo daughter. Even if a switch was flipped tonight and carbon and methane were not being pumped into the atmosphere, we all have massive climate instability to look forward to. Yes, the money is a major negative for me but what I should have lead with is 20 lbs of carbon for every gallon of gas burned. I am burning 3.5 to 3.8 gallons a day just to go to work and back. My toyota is very good on gas considering it has almost a quarter million miles and 280 horsepower. But over 70 lbs of carbon every single day....Too much for me.
So I have just bought a '22 S with 13k miles. CPO one owner.
Anyone got a package cover for the trunk for sale?

 

[BillAinCT]

So I have just bought a '22 S with 13k miles. CPO one owner.

Good move. And good luck to you with it. Did you check it with Leaf Spy yet? I read every month and plot SOH just to see the trend and project my 85% and 90% dates.

 

[gozer]

I am having an unusual (I hope) amount of trouble to download on my iphone. I can find it but not download it. Dont know what I'm doing wrong. ordered a dongle . I'm having the dealer print out of HV batt health and number of L3 charges as well as the battery mfg date. What I havent found yet is anyone's experience with nissan's extended warranty. Some mfg's are more responsive than others.

 

[Bombastinator2]

* reacts to the headline without knowing what the post is even about*

Aww.. it’s not a very big spider…. It does seem to be biting quite agressively though…

 

[LeftieBiker]

A quick aside about the Leaf cargo cover: unless you enjoy repeatedly bashing the bridge of your nose on surprisingly sharp surfaces, pick up a piece of pre-slit rigid plastic foam pipe wrap, and fasten it firmly (or it will work it's way off) to the rear edge of the cover.

 

[gozer]

Thanks for the idea. Now I just have to find one....

 

[summakor]

I would want a 2x margin on my regular 50mi a day commute even in winter at highway speed so 149mi is perfect. Or at least 1.5x so I can return to work and when something is on fire or return home to fetch something I forgot, etc. Or just forget to charge my car and make it to work. I can figure t fast charging to get home later. But if I had a 100 mi a day commute... I'd get the 62kWh battery.