Official BMW i3 thread

[GRA]

So unless you can base your decision solely on environmental reasons, it can't be justified on an economic basis.

No one ever bought a BMW for economic reasons

True, but some people are trying to justify it on that basis, so I thought I'd nip that in the bud :lol: From the reviews so far, it doesn't appear that BMW's usual 'Utimate driving machine' mantra is going to fly.

As for overall utility, the Volt wins hands-down, as it can do un-refueled road trips that would be onerous in the i3.

To me driving long distances (like doing to Seattle downtown and back) without using gas is a great "utility".

IOW, in my book - longer EV range = better utility.

Again, depends on your motivation and your needs. To me, utility implies that I can use something in the widest range of conditions with the least cost and inconvenience. An ICE wins hands down due to its universal infrastructure, relative tolerance of temperature extremes, rapidity of refueling and long range at reasonable cost (not counting the environmental externalities, obviously), all of which virtually eliminate any need for pre-planning and allow maximum spontaneity. YMMV.

BEVs may never achieve the rapidity of refueling or the portability of fuel supplies possible with a liquid or gaseous fuel, but once they have enough range in all conditions to exceed the bladder capacity of the average person and such range is affordable, it won't matter. We aren't there yet, but we're getting closer [Edit: Of course, it may be that affordable FCEVs with eco-friendly H2 will ultimately win that race]. If Nissan or one of the other 'affordable' BEV manufacturers would offer a REx, we'd be getting somewhere. Even if they charged as much as BMW does for the option, I expect they'd be swamped with customers.

 

[evnow]

It seems with the DC option so cheap that everyone would put it on their i3 car.

In Germany it is 1599 EUR.

In anycase, it would be the most useless expense - esp. for someone leasing. Probably will come out to 100s of $ per charge. I expect people leasing to opt for CCS < 10% (basically the uninformed who get suckered by dealers and/or scottf200 )

BTW, BMW is supposed to offer some gas loaners too. May be at a cost. I'd opt for this over unusable CCS.

 

[surfingslovak]

In Germany it is 1599 EUR.

Indeed, it's listed at EUR 1,590 on the German options list, but it could be priced differently in the US. Also note that German retail prices typically include 19% VAT. The net price for the QC option is EUR 1336.13. Not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

 

[jhm614]

Indeed, it's listed at EUR 1,590 on the German options list, but it could be priced differently in the US. Also note that German retail prices typically include 19% VAT. The net price for the QC option is EUR 1336.13. Not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

EUR 1336.13 is about $1,775 USD. Of couse, like you said, the US option could be (probably will be) priced differently. I think the base i3 price in Germany ($45,990 USD) is about 10% higher than the base in the US ($41,350 USD). Not sure if the German base includes the VAT.

 

[surfingslovak]

EUR 1336.13 is about $1,775 USD. Of couse, like you said, the US option could be (probably will be) priced differently. I think the base i3 price in Germany ($45,990 USD) is about 10% higher than the base in the US ($41,350 USD). Not sure if the German base includes the VAT.

Yes, the 35K German base price includes VAT. The relative price difference to comparable plugin vehicles in both markets differs widely. A a base i3 sans REx does not cost that much more than base a LEAF in Germany, but that's not true in the US. BMW could decide to option and price the car differently to account for competitive pressures and market conditions. I believe that LED headlights are supposed to be standard in the US, but they are an option in Europe, for example. There could be other differences too. While it's a bit premature to talk about it, it would appear that CCS will be an expensive option, which is disappointing to see if you happen to be a BEV enthusiast.

 

[scottf200]

In anycase, it would be the most useless expense - esp. for someone leasing. Probably will come out to 100s of $ per charge. I expect people leasing to opt for CCS < 10% (basically the uninformed who get suckered by dealers and/or scottf200 )

Nice personal dig. At least it will easily be compatible with my Tesla Model X since they followed the SAE J1772 standard. Of course 250+ miles are enough for my daily driving and the Superchargers are in my area for traveling! I have never leased.

I wonder how many how many LEAF folks got the chademo but have never used it because:
a) of limited availability,
b) no genuine need, or
c) the real fear it may degrade the battery faster than is already happening.

Buyers of the i3 in the right location may choose the CCS because it will eventually show up and you can use it multiple times per day without degrading the battery noticeably.

Indeed, it's listed at EUR 1,590 on the German options list, but it could be priced differently in the US. Also note that German retail prices typically include 19% VAT. The net price for the QC option is EUR 1336.13. Not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

EUR 1336.13 is about $1,775 USD. Of couse, like you said, the US option could be (probably will be) priced differently. I think the base i3 price in Germany ($45,990 USD) is about 10% higher than the base in the US ($41,350 USD). Not sure if the German base includes the VAT.

Rem Nissan even charge $1,300 so you can add it to your S. (I guess that includes the camera a 6.6kW instead of the 3.3, tho)

 

[derkraut]

Well...I have the fast-charging port on my 2011; but I have never used it up to now for the reasons stated by Scott in the previous post.

 

[evnow]

I wonder how many how many LEAF folks got the chademo but have never used it because of limited availability, no genuine need, or the real fear it may degrade the battery faster than is already happening.

Yes a lot of us never got to use QC in the first 2 years of '11 lease. That is the reason I recommend i3 leasees not to get CCS. It takes years to get any of this QC on the ground. Ofcourse, now there is a good deal of QC around here - and I've used it even when I forgot to charge (or Blink decided not to).

 

[surfingslovak]

Rem Nissan even charge $1,300 so you can add it to your S. (I guess that includes the camera a 6.6kW instead of the 3.3, tho)

It used to be $700 on 2011s, but you had to get the SL trim, which was about $2K more than the SV. I believe that the QC port was made standard on 2012s, but once again, it required the SL trim. It's part of the charging package in 2013 on the S, which includes the 6 kW OBC and QC for $1,300, and the LED headlight and quick charger pack on the SV for $1,630. How much does it cost on the Spark EV, would you know?

 

[surfingslovak]

The UK price list has the DC option listed at £560, presumably including 20% VAT. That's about $700 using the current exchange rate.

 

[scottf200]

Rem Nissan even charge $1,300 so you can add it to your S. (I guess that includes the camera a 6.6kW instead of the 3.3, tho)
<snip image>

<snip>How much does it cost on the Spark-EV, would you know?

I've seen $750 in this reference.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/spark-me-up-2014-chevy-spark-ev-starts-at-27495/

The 1LT trim includes Chevy’s MyLink seven-inch touch-screen infotainment system, which features smartphone integration with Pandora, Apple Siri Eyes Free voice control, and a navigation system called BringGo. Another $325 adds heated leatherette seats, a leather-wrapped steering wheel, and blue stitching.

A DC fast-charge option that promises an 80-percent charge in 20 minutes will be available later this year for $750.

GM says owners can use the fast-charge option several times a day without degrading the 21-kWh lithium-ion battery, except there are very few public stations that use the Spark’s new SAE combo plug.

Also the difference between the 1LT ($26,685) and 2LT ($27,010) is $335. Not sure if the 2LT MSRP changes when they start having the CCS DCFC available.
http://www.chevrolet.com/spark-ev-electric-vehicle/specs/trims.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SanDust]

True, but some people are trying to justify it on that basis, so I thought I'd nip that in the bud :lol: From the reviews so far, it doesn't appear that BMW's usual 'Utimate driving machine' mantra is going to fly.

You're not by chance referring to this article, are you? http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/bmw-i3-vs-chevy-spark-ev-bavaria-and-detroit-may-be-closer-than-you-think/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Cutting to the chase, it concludes that "the Spark EV does about 95 percent of what the BMW does for so much less it’s laughable". Brutal. Maybe not fair. But totally brutal.

 

[SanDust]

IOW, in my book - longer EV range = better utility.

If you get the REx you'll end up with the same range and you won't need to even worry about finding a QC. All this talk about how we need QCs doesn't resonate with me. I'd trade my QC for a battery that didn't lose so much capacity in a nanosecond. In my book having more QCs doesn't substitute for having a battery with consistent range, especially when the range isn't all that great to begin with. A Leaf with a REx would be ten times more useful than a Leaf with a Chademo charger.

I'll grant that the REx is pricey. Maybe even too pricey for a second car on a lease. If you're buying then it's compelling.

I wonder how many how many LEAF folks got the chademo but have never used it because:
a) of limited availability,
b) no genuine need, or
c) the real fear it may degrade the battery faster than is already happening.

I'm going with (a) and (b) but not (c). The loss of battery capacity seems related to temperature and driving speeds and not much else.

With respect to your comments about the Tesla charging connectors, the Tesla approach to charging makes me giggle given Musk's comments about the world needing an affordable electric car. If you are going to make an affordable electric car you're not going to do it using a proprietary connector. Nissan will capitulate on the charging standard before Tesla does. Ghosn & Co aren't stupid and the economies of scale offered by CCS are too compelling. Of course, instead of talking about making an electric car, Nissan is actually making one.

 

[surfingslovak]

I'm not sure if it makes that much sense to compare the i3 with the Spark EV. Why not compare it with the iMiEV or a ZERO motorcycle? Fisker? That said, it was a fun read. What caught my attention was the following though:

The i3 and its growing number of cousins, including the Spark, Volt, LEAF, Prius, Model S and others, signal that carmakers recognize the end of the oil era is coming, and good riddance. My next car is going to be an electric car in some form. The quiet ride, smooth power, simplicity and savings are just too good to ignore any more. You get both with either the Spark EV or i3.

 

[TonyWilliams]

True, but some people are trying to justify it on that basis, so I thought I'd nip that in the bud :lol: From the reviews so far, it doesn't appear that BMW's usual 'Utimate driving machine' mantra is going to fly.

You're not by chance referring to this article, are you? http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/bmw-i3-vs-chevy-spark-ev-bavaria-and-detroit-may-be-closer-than-you-think/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Cutting to the chase, it concludes that "the Spark EV does about 95 percent of what the BMW does for so much less it’s laughable". Brutal. Maybe not fair. But totally brutal.

"Besides, with all the cash you’d save with the Chevy, you could buy a used BMW motorcycle engine with an actual motorcycle attached to it and get your “extended range” that way with cash left over for swankier wheels, spiffier paint and all the beaded seat covers you can carry in the Spark EV."


I don't think you'll get very much BMW motorcycle for $4500, but I think the concept has merit!

 

[scottf200]

I wonder how many how many LEAF folks got the chademo but have never used it because:
a) of limited availability,
b) no genuine need, or
c) the real fear it may degrade the battery faster than is already happening.

I'm going with (a) and (b) but not (c). The loss of battery capacity seems related to temperature and driving speeds and not much else.

the (c) angle I meant was related to the temperature (not about C-Rate or the like). Imagine using the LEAFs DCFC in AZ, TX, etc hot places. Or moderately hot places and use it to make the battery hotter (degrade faster).

 

[evnow]

IOW, in my book - longer EV range = better utility.

If you get the REx you'll end up with the same range and you won't need to even worry about finding a QC. All this talk about how we need QCs doesn't resonate with me. I'd trade my QC for a battery that didn't lose so much capacity in a nanosecond. In my book having more QCs doesn't substitute for having a battery with consistent range, especially when the range isn't all that great to begin with. A Leaf with a REx would be ten times more useful than a Leaf with a Chademo charger.

Confused. I was saying a 90 mile EV range to me meant better utility than 40. You are talking about something different.

 

[evnow]

You're not by chance referring to this article, are you? http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/bmw-i3-vs-chevy-spark-ev-bavaria-and-detroit-may-be-closer-than-you-think/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Cutting to the chase, it concludes that "the Spark EV does about 95 percent of what the BMW does for so much less it’s laughable". Brutal. Maybe not fair. But totally brutal.

I think any 2 cars of similar size can said to do "95% of what the other car does". Afterall what a car does is to carry x number of people from A to B.

being flippant <> being brutal.

 

[edatoakrun]

Well, for my purposes (primarily mountain driving) the ~ two-and-a-quarter ton Tesla's handling probably falls short of my econobox/family truckster LEAF.

...As for how the car handles, only an elite number of journalist have actually driven the car and I happen to sit down with one of them, Peter Gorrie, formerly with the Toronto Star newspaper in Canada and now freelancing. Over tankards of Deutsche bier and soft salt pretzels in the hotel beer garden, he explained to me that the day Toronto was deluged with 70 cm of rain in a hour, causing widespread flooding, he was on his way to the airport for a flight to Munich to drive the i3 around an abandoned airfield. His flight departed three hours late. His personal opinion of the i3?

"It handles better than the Tesla Model S."

Of course, he admits, the Model S weighs more than two tons; the compact i3 comes in at 2,700 pounds (1,224 kg), courtesy of all that aluminum and carbon fiber. It should be more nimble and according to Gorrie, it is; handling the slalom course laid out across the runway with characteristically-BMW alacrity...

The obviously superior locations for any fuel filler are center front, or center rear.

Of course, ICEVs are precluded from using the best fuel port locations, due to their flammable and (in certain conditions) explosive fuels.

The attempted explanation below is just Lame, IMO.

I'd hate to be the first customer with the first SAE DC capable EV, at the first functional SAE DC station in the USA (whenever that is) who found out the cable is too short, since the charge port was poorly located.

...And speaking of plugging in, where GM and Ford and Toyota opted to locate the charge port on the driver front quarter panel, BMW chose the right rear. Why? I asked Krantz.

"To get it as close to the battery pack as possible," essentially was his reply. It's all about efficiency, he explained. The longer the cable, the less efficient. Of course, it's also about weight and cost reduction. Less cable, less weight, less cost...

http://evworld.com/focus.cfm?cid=163" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And in related news...

Germany: BMW's New Electric Car Has Interior Made of Hemp


By Steve Elliott
Hemp News

The BMW i3, a new all-electric car which debuted on Monday, weights just 2,700 pounds, 800 pounds less than the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt. BMW achieved this by using a variety of low-weight materials --including plenty of hemp in the interior -- to maximize fuel efficiency and driving range.

Weight is essential, reports TruthonPot.com, because the i3 depends on a 22-kilowatt lithium-ion battery for fuel; the battery is so heavy it contributes about 20 percent of the vehicle's mass. Like many BMWs before it, the i3 features door panels made of hemp; mixed with plastic, hemp helps lower the weight of each panel by about 10 percent.

Hemp fibers, left exposed, also form a design element of the car's interior, reports Bloomberg. Designer Benoit Jacob says the use of natural materials like hemp and kenaf (a plant in the hibiscus family) makes the i3's interior feel like "a small loft on wheels."...

Set to launch next year, the BMW i8, an electric hybrid supercar, will also include hemp components.


http://hemp.org/news/content/germany-bmws-new-electric-car-has-interior-made-hemp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

True, but some people are trying to justify it on that basis, so I thought I'd nip that in the bud :lol: From the reviews so far, it doesn't appear that BMW's usual 'Utimate driving machine' mantra is going to fly.

You're not by chance referring to this article, are you? http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/bmw-i3-vs-chevy-spark-ev-bavaria-and-detroit-may-be-closer-than-you-think/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Cutting to the chase, it concludes that "the Spark EV does about 95 percent of what the BMW does for so much less it’s laughable". Brutal. Maybe not fair. But totally brutal.

Hadn't seen it, but generally agree (without any experience of the i3, to be sure). I took a short test drive in a Spark EV yesterday, and posted my comments in that topic:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6198&start=670" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;