Official Ford C-MAX Energi PHEV thread

[DaveEV]

Wow, you mean it gets 79 MPG !!! Not sure how a C-Max Energi could go 100 miles (combined electric/gas) on a single gallon of gas ... perhaps they mean, drive 21 miles on electric; recharge it, drive another 21 miles; recharge it; drive another 21 miles; recharge it and THEN finish up the final 37 miles using gas??

No - what the EPA 100 MPGe rating really means is that the MPGe equivalent when running on electricity only is 100 MPGe.

When running on gas, the Energi is EPA rated at 43 MPG.

So as soon as the engine starts up - your blended MPGe will immediately start falling.

Think of it this way:

On a 100 mile trip, you will drive 21 miles in EV mode at 100 MPGe and 79 miles in hybrid mode at 43 MPG.

So you burn .21 gallons MPGe on the first 21 miles, then 1.84 gallons for the next 79 miles for a total of 2.05 Ge or a blended 49 MPGe.

Basically, for any trip longer than 100 miles, you're going to be more efficient driving a regular Prius hybrid. Of course, this is why Ford is comparing the C-MAX to the Prius V which has a similar fuel economy on gas. In this comparison the Energi will always win in efficiency as long as you plug it in.

It's really too bad the Energi only has a bit more than half the trunk room of the Prius V which really makes comparing the 2 difficult when you know you're going to be using these vehicles for hauling stuff frequently.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

not sure i agree with the .21 gallons of gas burned during "EV" mode

 

[LEAFer]

not sure i agree with the .21 gallons of gas burned during "EV" mode

Unfortunately confusing ... but that's how they calculate it. They assume a gallon of gas contains the equivalent of 34kWh of energy. So ... back-calculating ... with a 7.6kWh battery (unsure how much is usable, but let's say 6.1 or 80%) ... 6.1/34 = 0.179 gallons. But the 6.1 requires a little more than that from the wall (85% efficiency), like 7.17 ==> 7.17/34= ... so 0.21 is certainly in the right ballpark. Naturally, using the 100 MPGe rating, it's obvious that it would take 1/100 of an (equivalent) gallon to go one mile.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

not sure i agree with the .21 gallons of gas burned during "EV" mode

Unfortunately confusing ... but that's how they calculate it. They assume a gallon of gas contains the equivalent of 34kWh of energy. So ... back-calculating ... with a 7.6kWh battery (unsure how much is usable, but let's say 6.1 or 80%) ... 6.1/34 = 0.179 gallons. But the 6.1 requires a little more than that from the wall (85% efficiency), like 7.17 ==> 7.17/34= ... so 0.21 is certainly in the right ballpark. Naturally, using the 100 MPGe rating, it's obvious that it would take 1/100 of an (equivalent) gallon to go one mile.

oic...

so is the math of blending "e gas" and "smelly gas" additive or synergistic?

 

[TEG]

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/ford-c-max-energi-plug-hybrid-gets-100-mpge-rating-epa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://insideevs.com/ford-c-max-energi-gets-official-epa-ev-range-of-21-miles-total-range-of-620-miles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[redLEAF]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that the C-Max Energi is finally coming in as competition to the long running Prius. In one article a Volt owner says they got 190+ MPG so it's all how you look at it. A better measurement is actually cost per mile where you can add the electricity and gas cost and simply divide it by how many miles you've driven --- at least that's how I describe things when people ask how much I'm savings versus driving an ICE, of course I compare it to a 16 MPG for effect but it's more dramatic for some folks I work with who have 40 mile commutes.

 

[evnow]

A better measurement is actually cost per mile where you can add the electricity and gas cost and simply divide it by how many miles you've driven --- at least that's how I describe things when people ask how much I'm savings versus driving an ICE, of course I compare it to a 16 MPG for effect but it's more dramatic for some folks I work with who have 40 mile commutes.

Cost varies widely - so that obviously can't be the measure (though EPA specifies some "money saved").

I don't know whether MPGe is useful or not ...

 

[DaveEV]

I don't know whether MPGe is useful or not ...

Combined with the EV range, it's useful as a comparison tool, which is what it's designed to do.

 

[evnow]

I don't know whether MPGe is useful or not ...

Combined with the EV range, it's useful as a comparison tool, which is what it's designed to do.

Not very useful to me personally. In a PHEV, all I care about is
- EV Range
- MPG in CS mode

MPGe is a distraction to me.

I don't know whether the high PMGe numbers attract some folks who might otherwise look to buy a Prius. If this is the case, MPGe might serve some purpose.

 

[EVee]

The C-Max sounds like an intriguing car. It would meet my communting needs but I could still use it for longer road trips. It also sounds like a good value at 30K before the state tax credit.

Has anyone driven one yet at a dealer?

 

[evnow]

Has anyone driven one yet at a dealer?

It has not been released yet - expected next month.

You will see reviews by journalists before they start appearing at the dealers.

 

[DaveEV]

MPGe is a distraction to me.

I don't know whether the high PMGe numbers attract some folks who might otherwise look to buy a Prius. If this is the case, MPGe might serve some purpose.

Let's say I want to compare PHEVs, so I look at the Volt and Karma.

Both have 30-something mile EV range. But the Volt is rated close to 100 MPGe on electricity. And the Karma is rated around 50 MPGe on electricity. Which tells me that for those thirty-something miles, the Karma will need twice as much electricity to recharge.

That's not useful?

 

[redLEAF]

Depending on how successful the C-Max Energi is (they sold close to a thousand of just the hybrid version in September) GM may have really missed the mark not bringing this 'MPV' Volt to market ...

As others have already commented, some current Volt owner's would have bought this if it was available instead ... time will tell but with the still overall popularity of compact SUV's and Crossover's you would think the potential sales numbers would be there for another plug-in; I know Mitsubishi will be coming out with their Outlander EV as well as Tesla's X but we haven't yet seen any other mainstream ones NOW other than the RAV EV which is a bit pricey for most and has the same limited range issues for the utility factor for which these types of vehicles are known for. The key will be what's the 'sweet spot' for pure EV range -- 10, 20 miles or more like 35-40 in the Volt's territory; at least on the PHEV's?

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/10/lack-of-volt-mpv-just-cost-gm-at-least-this-sale/

 

[GetOffYourGas]

MPGe is a distraction to me.

I don't know whether the high PMGe numbers attract some folks who might otherwise look to buy a Prius. If this is the case, MPGe might serve some purpose.

Let's say I want to compare PHEVs, so I look at the Volt and Karma.

Both have 30-something mile EV range. But the Volt is rated close to 100 MPGe on electricity. And the Karma is rated around 50 MPGe on electricity. Which tells me that for those thirty-something miles, the Karma will need twice as much electricity to recharge.

That's not useful?

I think the fundamental difference here is that we all have different motivators.

If my motivator is cost of ownership, all I care about is average $/mile. The rest is meaningless.

If my motivator is using as little ENERGY as possible, then MPGe has a place. It is, after all, a measure of energy efficiency, regardless of where that energy came from.

If my motivator is using as little GASOLINE as possible, then I care about all electric range and CS MPG. It doesn't matter what the car's MPGe is on electricity because I'm willing to use more electricity in order to burn less gas.

I'm others can add more motivators, but my point is that it differs from person to person. As we (the collective masses) learn more about EVs/PHEVs/EREVs/etc, having this information available is important.

 

[EVee]

If my motivators are a balance of "all of the above" , would the C-Max Energi make more sense than the Leaf (or other pure electric) for my situation, which is a 18 mi commute each way? I could use electric for my commute but still use the same car for my weekend outings and vacations and things.

Am I looking at this the right way?

 

[redLEAF]

If my motivators are a balance of "all of the above" , would the C-Max Energi make more sense than the Leaf (or other pure electric) for my situation, which is a 18 mi commute each way? I could use electric for my commute but still use the same car for my weekend outings and vacations and things.

Am I looking at this the right way?

Can you also charge it at your destination on the daily commute? If not, only a little over half your commute would be able to use pure EV mode, although it would be interesting too see the equivalent I suppose -- in multi-car families (our work commutes are 7, 30 and 32 mile round trips --- 3 drivers, 4 cars currently) I would swap (mine is the 30 R/T) between the C-Max Energi and our LEAF with the wife whose R/T is only 7 miles. On weekends we would still pretty much use the LEAF in all but much longer distances but use the C-Max as our main trip car, it could replace something that only gets 16 MPG around town but about 25 MPG on trips --- local commuting simply kills the mileage so even with the electric/gas mix we would be way ahead. If going to a single car for everything, these PHEV's will make sense once you can calculate out how much pure electric driving you can manage for the majority of your driving (commuting) ... once again taking advantage of the government incentives initially ($3,750 in Energi's case).

On paper, based on a $4.20/gal mid-grade gas for my 16 MPG ICE and my flat kWh rate of 6.6 cents, my LEAF averages about 4.7 miles per kWh the cost difference for a 32 mile R/T is $8.40 versus .45 cents -- don't know what the C-Max averages but if as good as the 4.7 as the LEAF would be .29 cents for the first 21 miles and then (C-Max uses regular so say $4/gal) 11 miles at 43 MPG or $1.02 in gas for a total of $1.31 for the daily trip -- almost 3X the cost of driving the LEAF but over 6.4X less than the ICE it would replace; this doesn't add-in maintenance, insurance, etc. differences just pure 'fuel' costs. Each situation is different but its phenomenal to see how much less expensive what many need to do each day once an electric powered car is added to the mix; especially if you drive something that doesn't already get 30+ MPG as your ICE (BTW the 4th car gets about 28 MPG but gets stored winters so this is worse case scenario).

 

[evnow]

Let's say I want to compare PHEVs, so I look at the Volt and Karma.

Both have 30-something mile EV range. But the Volt is rated close to 100 MPGe on electricity. And the Karma is rated around 50 MPGe on electricity. Which tells me that for those thirty-something miles, the Karma will need twice as much electricity to recharge.

That's not useful?

That can also be specified as Miles/kWh, which is the measure I actually like. MPGe, not so much.

 

[EVee]

If my motivators are a balance of "all of the above" , would the C-Max Energi make more sense than the Leaf (or other pure electric) for my situation, which is a 18 mi commute each way? I could use electric for my commute but still use the same car for my weekend outings and vacations and things.

Am I looking at this the right way?

Can you also charge it at your destination on the daily commute? If not, only a little over half your commute would be able to use pure EV mode, although it would be interesting too see the equivalent I suppose -- in multi-car families (our work commutes are 7, 30 and 32 mile round trips --- 3 drivers, 4 cars currently) I would swap (mine is the 30 R/T) between the C-Max Energi and our LEAF with the wife whose R/T is only 7 miles. On weekends we would still pretty much use the LEAF in all but much longer distances but use the C-Max as our main trip car, it could replace something that only gets 16 MPG around town but about 25 MPG on trips --- local commuting simply kills the mileage so even with the electric/gas mix we would be way ahead. If going to a single car for everything, these PHEV's will make sense once you can calculate out how much pure electric driving you can manage for the majority of your driving (commuting) ... once again taking advantage of the government incentives initially ($3,750 in Energi's case).

On paper, based on a $4.20/gal mid-grade gas for my 16 MPG ICE and my flat kWh rate of 6.6 cents, my LEAF averages about 4.7 miles per kWh the cost difference for a 32 mile R/T is $8.40 versus .45 cents -- don't know what the C-Max averages but if as good as the 4.7 as the LEAF would be .29 cents for the first 21 miles and then (C-Max uses regular so say $4/gal) 11 miles at 43 MPG or $1.02 in gas for a total of $1.31 for the daily trip -- almost 3X the cost of driving the LEAF but over 6.4X less than the ICE it would replace; this doesn't add-in maintenance, insurance, etc. differences just pure 'fuel' costs. Each situation is different but its phenomenal to see how much less expensive what many need to do each day once an electric powered car is added to the mix; especially if you drive something that doesn't already get 30+ MPG as your ICE (BTW the 4th car gets about 28 MPG but gets stored winters so this is worse case scenario).

Yes, I can charge at work so I'd be able to commute to and from in EV mode

 

[redLEAF]

If my motivators are a balance of "all of the above" , would the C-Max Energi make more sense than the Leaf (or other pure electric) for my situation, which is a 18 mi commute each way? I could use electric for my commute but still use the same car for my weekend outings and vacations and things.

Am I looking at this the right way?

Can you also charge it at your destination on the daily commute?

Yes, I can charge at work so I'd be able to commute to and from in EV mode

If that's the case, and even at 120V you would be able to fully recharge it for your trip home (Ford says 7 hours at 120V) and it would of course be even cheaper if charging at work is 'free' -- you may even be able to get away from putting in a L2 charger at home as it would have enough time to charge overnight unlike full EV's that take close to a full day from a fully depleted battery to recharge. Ford is not (currently) offering the same incentive on the Energi as they are the hybrid ($1,000 cash incentive through the end of the year) but the Energi does get a $3,750 fed tax credit that could rolled into a lease or taken off once you file your taxes.

 

[EVee]

Thanks for the info! The $3750 takes the price to just under $30K, and depending on the state you live in, or the company you work for, there might be further incentives!