Official Toyota Prius PHEV thread

[DaveEV]

3) we still cannot get around the fact that nearly EVERYONE needs an extended range vehicle, so whether you have a Volt with a 35 mile EV range or a PHEV Prius with 12 mile EV range or a Prius with a 4500 FOOT EV range, when you hit a certain distance, it really does not matter.

I know you know this, but not everyone needs a vehicle with long range (100mi+) and those that do typically only need it a few times a year.

I could rent a vehicle for those long trips or even better would be some decent high speed rail which would eliminate the need for a vehicle on those trips.

 

[mitch672]

I don't see why 8KW of Lithium can't fit in a standard Prius.

You mean 8kwh ?

I hope it does. I'm all for higher range. When I asked the question (don't remember where) why Toyota isn't putting a larger pack - the answer was space.

PICC (Plug In Conversions) manages to get a 12.5Kwh Lithium pack in a 2004-2009 (Gen 2) Prius, removing the factory pack, and using the space under the rear deck, they are also rumored to be working on this for the 2010 (Gen 3) Prius as well. If a 3rd party conversion company can do it, why can't Toyota?

 

[evnow]

PICC (Plug In Conversions) manages to get a 12.5Kwh Lithium pack in a 2004-2009 (Gen 2) Prius, removing the factory pack, and using the space under the rear deck, they are also rumored to be working on this for the 2010 (Gen 3) Prius as well. If a 3rd party conversion company can do it, why can't Toyota?

Then, what is the reason Toyota is testing with a small pack ?

 

[DaveEV]

PICC (Plug In Conversions) manages to get a 12.5Kwh Lithium pack in a 2004-2009 (Gen 2) Prius, removing the factory pack, and using the space under the rear deck, they are also rumored to be working on this for the 2010 (Gen 3) Prius as well. If a 3rd party conversion company can do it, why can't Toyota?

Let's see.

The PICC conversion costs $13.5k on top of the vehicle.

The warranty falls way short of OEM/CARB specs which warrants the battery for 10 years / 150k miles.

At that price they've only sold a couple dozen.

For Toyota to produce one it would take a large amount of R&D and with the limited sales numbers, they'd never get close to breaking even.

It's clear that they will eventually do it, but they are also making sure that it will be done right.

 

[mitch672]

PICC (Plug In Conversions) manages to get a 12.5Kwh Lithium pack in a 2004-2009 (Gen 2) Prius, removing the factory pack, and using the space under the rear deck, they are also rumored to be working on this for the 2010 (Gen 3) Prius as well. If a 3rd party conversion company can do it, why can't Toyota?

Then, what is the reason Toyota is testing with a small pack ?

Toyota is very conservative, and doesn't fully trust Lithium - yet
The problem is, the market is moving much faster than their stodgy typicall R & D rate is moving. They need to be more aggressive, or lose their lead to other mfrs, which is what is now happening.

 

[Jimmydreams]

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

As opposed to sending that 5 billion to countries we buy oil from and want to kill us, and our way of life?

I'll take the $5 billion electrical infrastructure upgrade, Alex.

+100000000

 

[TomT]

Now all we have to do is figure out where that 5 billion (probably more like 10 since they always greatly underestimate the cost of such things) is going to come from in a city that is basically bankrupt...

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

As opposed to sending that 5 billion to countries we buy oil from and want to kill us, and our way of life?

I'll take the $5 billion electrical infrastructure upgrade, Alex.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Now all we have to do is figure out where that 5 billion (probably more like 10 since they always greatly underestimate the cost of such things) is going to come from in a city that is basically bankrupt...

That's already been figured out: anyone who pays an electric bill.

LADWP will simply raise their rates in the form of a 'infrastructure improvement tarrif' or some such line-item and call it a day.

 

[DaveEV]

That's already been figured out: anyone who pays an electric bill.
LADWP will simply raise their rates in the form of a 'infrastructure improvement tarrif' or some such line-item and call it a day.

Yep. Or more likely the additional consumption from EVs will simply pay for the upgrades. After all, the electric company does make money on every kWh you pay for!

 

[Train]

Talking about need for long drives - without acknowledging that 60% of Americans have multiple cars, to start with.

Because 60% (I'll take your word for it) may have multiple cars doesn't mean that it is a myth. How many of these 60% own their own home? How many rent a home, apartment, townhome or condo that has separated parking facilities away from the living area and can't get a charger installed or will be cost prohibitive to get one installed?

Many CA commutes exceed the Leaf's current range. Many commutes in genral exceed the Leaf's range.

I'm not anti-Leaf, I've been considering one myself. But I'm looking at it from all angles and so will others prospective buyers.

 

[evnow]

Many CA commutes exceed the Leaf's current range. Many commutes in genral exceed the Leaf's range.

90% of commutes are below 90 miles.

In anycase, this is all OT for this thread. I suggest you open a new thread if you have questions (or search, since most of these have been discussed before).

 

[planet4ever]

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

I would question their assumptions. I continue to assume that most EV charging will be at home at night, and that the nighttime load for a household with an EV will not exceed the summer daytime load for that household in the LADWP service area. If my assumptions are correct, what infrastructure updates are needed?

I admit that my assumptions can break down for apartment dwellers, but I frankly expect that most EVs, for the foreseeable future, will be purchased by multi-car families in detached dwellings. That will obviously have to change when EVs outnumber ICEs, but it should still hold at the "1 in 5" level.

 

[garygid]

With a new, safe-to-handle, switched, dryer plug, a safety "collar" over the existing 50A socket, and a long "extension" cord, the in-home infrastructure could be MUCH less expensive than using the EVSE "standards", and 99% as safe.

The public infrastructure needs mostly Quick-e-Fuel "stations".

Spending Billions at home would generally help rather than depress our economy.

Even though the AVERAGE daily RV miles is only (around) 2 miles a day, that "average" does not give us meaningful design-goal information for powering RVs.

 

[planet4ever]

With a new, safe-to-handle, switched, dryer plug, a safety "collar" over the existing 50A socket, and a long "extension" cord, the in-home infrastructure could be MUCH less expensive than using the EVSE "standards", and 99% as safe.

Perhaps true, but beside the point for my comment. Let me repeat what I quoted before, with emphasis added:

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

LADWP funding of home charging will probably be a drop in the bucket. Quick-e-Fuel stations themselves would not be likely to be financed and built by LADWP, but if they became common and were heavily used that would force some significant power system upgrades. I'm still from Missouri on that. I don't think very many people are going to be satisfied with a half hour charging delay for every hour or so of travel. (I am assuming they would mostly be used for freeway trips.) Long high-speed trips are going to require one of:

• Batteries good enough for a full day's travel, in which case quick charging isn't needed.
• A new technology, such a high capacity ultracaps as a reasonable price.
• Effective and universal battery swap infrastructure.
• A much more effective use of blended power from electricity and another source than either the Chevy Volt or the plug-in Prius seem likely to provide in the near future.

Even though the AVERAGE daily RV miles is only (around) 2 miles a day, that "average" does not give us meaningful design-goal information for powering RVs.

It is indeed important to remember that averages can be very misleading. To take a slightly less extreme case than RVs (which I don't expect to be all-electric any time soon), if you work from home, drive ten miles/week for errands (groceries, etc.), but go 200 miles each way to visit your parents every weekend, you probably don't want a LEAF, even though you average less than 60 miles/day.

 

[evnow]

http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-prius-phv-plug-in/87539-cold-weather-video-review-prius-plug-in.html

The EV range of Plugin Prius drops to 6 miles in cold weather.

 

[LakeLeaf]

http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-prius-phv-plug-in/87539-cold-weather-video-review-prius-plug-in.html

The EV range of Plugin Prius drops to 6 miles in cold weather.

Yes, I'd expect it to have the same issues in cold weather as the Leaf (~40-50% reduction in range).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the range estimates in cold weather varies a bit and 50% reduction is not what i would consider as "expected" in the Prius or the Leaf.

in all these "cold weather" range estimates, the actual ability to travel is expected to be hampered as much or more as the car's ability to control climate.

that is not always the case. here in the Northwest, we just went thru a very cold AND dry spell. in those situations we would most likely see a drop of maybe 20% capacity or less simply because our travel time did not increase.

those 50% numbers you see is "fearmongering" put out by anti EV crowd.

 

[LEAFer]

I agree the 50% is too high, but part of that 50% drop could be due to factors other than just temperature. If the road conditions are snowy and/or wet, if there's more of a wind blowing, extra heater use due to the effect of "wet cold" on human body ... all of those factors are significant, in particular snow and rain.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I agree the 50% is too high, but part of that 50% drop could be due to factors other than just temperature. If the road conditions are snowy and/or wet, if there's more of a wind blowing, extra heater use due to the effect of "wet cold" on human body ... all of those factors are significant, in particular snow and rain.

exactly my point. but wintry conditions apply to all vehicles. but cold temps and wintry conditions dont always go hand in hand.

if i lived in the Northeast or other congested snowy areas, i would not get a Leaf expecting more than a 50 mile range.

 

[BobTwaalf]

I own a Volt and it takes about 10 hours to charge the car at night.
I thought this would be sufficient. However when I need to go on a 40 mile trip in the morning, back in an hour, I would like to be able to have my battery charged right away. So I'm having a 240V charger installed at home so I can drive in EV mode again later in the day.
From reports, to be able to drive 300 miles electric mode in any car, you would need over $30,000 in batteries with current technology. The weight would probably also be over 30% of the car.
A 500 mile range would be desirable as this would allow me to drive from San Francisco to Los Angeles. This would be about the distance that most drivers would drive maximum on a day. Then charge overnight. I foresee that in the near future a pure EV (no Hybrid) would have such a range because that would satisfy 99% of all use.
Now if the batteries could be fully charged in 10 minutes like a fill-up takes at a gas station, that would change things again.

Bob T
http://MyperfectAutomobile.com