Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

[cwerdna]

Guys, this is not a political forum, it is about the Nissan Leaf.

Please stay on topic for everyone's sake.

+100

 

[SanDust]

No the real question is: Why am I being forced to fund refueling stations along I-5? Gas stations are privately-owned. The electric stations should be as well.
...
I don't expect taxpayers to give me free gasoline in my insight just because it has a battery in it, and nor should I have to fund their joyride in the Nissan "dying battery" vehicle. I'm tired of busting my butt to earn money & then have it used to give other people free or cheap stuff.

You make a very good point. However, in fact it would be the EV drivers who subsidize the ICE drivers. Take the billions in subsidies to the oil companies, then add a good portion of the budget for the Department of Defense which is devoted to keeping the oil flowing, and, viola, you have the reason why all of us hard working EV drivers are tired of giving people like you free cheap oil. I think the estimates are that if you take out the subsidies gas would cost $10/gallon.

If you want to burn it you can at least pay for it!

 

[SanDust]

I think surfingslovak would make a fabulous advisory board member. Tony Williams of course would as well, though he may be a little too hot for Nissan to handle.

 

[NYLEAF]

I think surfingslovak would make a fabulous advisory board member. Tony Williams of course would as well, though he may be a little too hot for Nissan to handle.

I thought the whole point was that Nissan doesn't get to pick the members, Chelsea does, right?

I vote for Tony. I also vote for Ingineer, except that I don't want to take time away from his many cool projects. How many more votes do I get?

 

[GRA]

Edit: OT post removed.

 

[RegGuheert]

Jeff and Chelsea: If your would like to read just one thread by a Nissan LEAF owner who is having serious problems with their vehicle that details the frustrations they are having getting Nissan to fix the problem, I will direct you to this one: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday.

The Nissan LEAF is the first Nissan product I have ever owned, but I must say that your service policies verge on the bizarre. I won't detail my struggles here, but I'm more than a little frustrated about them. Fortunately, my issues are extremely minor. What I find disturbing is that it seems similar customer treatment occurs even in the case of severe defects such as that detailed in the thread I have linked.

 

[theaveng]

You make a very good point. However, in fact it would be the EV drivers who subsidize the ICE drivers. Take the billions in subsidies to the oil companies

The DoD subsidizes the military corporations (Lockheed, Northrop, etc) and politicians ego ("I fought a war and won... vote for me"). Not oil companies. I'm curious what subsidies you think oil companies receive? i.e. What direct cash payments do they get?

Anyway I'd have no problem paying the full price of gasoline, whatever that may be. I don't think I should have to support other people, and nor do I think they should have to support me, except for a few rare exceptions (if I was handicapped and couldn't take care of myself). Right now U.S. gasoline and EU gasoline is about the same after you subtract the road/fuel tax. Around $3/gallon.

 

[Nubo]

No the real question is: Why am I being forced to fund refueling stations along I-5? Gas stations are privately-owned. The electric stations should be as well.
...
I don't expect taxpayers to give me free gasoline in my insight just because it has a battery in it, and nor should I have to fund their joyride in the Nissan "dying battery" vehicle. I'm tired of busting my butt to earn money & then have it used to give other people free or cheap stuff.

You make a very good point. However, in fact it would be the EV drivers who subsidize the ICE drivers. Take the billions in subsidies to the oil companies, then add a good portion of the budget for the Department of Defense which is devoted to keeping the oil flowing, and, viola, you have the reason why all of us hard working EV drivers are tired of giving people like you free cheap oil. I think the estimates are that if you take out the subsidies gas would cost $10/gallon.

If you want to burn it you can at least pay for it!

And for the several members of my family who have asthma and other lung problems, there are some medical bills....

 

[downeykp]

Agreed. I second that notion as well. Phil is amazing. He is exactly the type of person you would want on the advisory board.

Chelsea: I would like to enthusiastically nominate to serve on your advisory board... Phil Sadow, aka "Ingineer," the talented visionary who has enhanced so many of our Leafs with his 240V cordset upgrade, his control-your-heater modification, and hopefully someday his turbo "long ranger” trailer.

His intelligence, knowledge, and skills are unassailable, his commitment to the Leaf in particular and the EV movement in general is unwaivering, and... he is a genuinely thoughtful, helpful, friendly, open person.

I'm sure others will second my motion without hesitation.

Advisory board? BS Nissan should hire him as an engineer. He already knows more about the Leaf than Nissan

 

[nosuchthing]

There really should be no capacity losses in temperate climates after 10,000 or so miles.

I have been advocating it for a while now. I have 26,500 miles in 15 months ownership and NO LOSS of bars or range. How did I do it?

I NEVER CHARGE 80%

The battery needs to be "stretched" to maintain its physical space. If you consistenly charge to 80% you are "shrinking" the battery and it loses its capacity as a result. This is unscientific, but I have the Leaf to prove it, folks.

 

[leafwing]

So basically, if you aren't one of the seven identified owners, you're screwed. No acknowledgement of other owners with problems in TX, CA, FL and no proposed ensured satisfaction for anyone OTHER than the seven referenced owners. That's really unacceptable.

After reading the letter, it seems to me that only the magnificent seven will get something from Nissan.

 

[leafwing]

There really should be no capacity losses in temperate climates after 10,000 or so miles.

I have been advocating it for a while now. I have 26,500 miles in 15 months ownership and NO LOSS of bars or range. How did I do it?

I NEVER CHARGE 80%

The battery needs to be "stretched" to maintain its physical space. If you consistenly charge to 80% you are "shrinking" the battery and it loses its capacity as a result. This is unscientific, but I have the Leaf to prove it, folks.

We all know by now that the car performs very well in moderate climate and performs miserably in hot climate.

 

[kubel]

The key precept in crisis communication and crisis management is get out in front of the problem.

GM did that when they offered their buy-back program.
Nissan is offering talk and vague promises of action.
We are still waiting for them to get out in front of the problem.
This is not a solution, as so many here point out.

I am concerned about resale, about availability of a upgrade or replacement battery in 5-8 years.

(This is all said by someone who has a car with 16k miles after 17 months of ownership and negligible deterioration of battery. I own and live in the optimum coastal CA climate and commute at most 12 miles from the coast.)

To be honest, I don't think Nissan really considers this a crisis.

I love my LEAF, I think it's the best car I've ever owned. I live in a cold weather state, so I'm not overly concerned about battery degradation. I knew the battery had no thermal management system. I knew it would experience permanent capacity loss in the extreme heat and temporary capacity loss in the extreme cold (not to mention limited range due to the use of the heater), and gradual capacity loss with every day and every charge. I accepted these challenges and jumped on a lease. I'll leave the risk to Nissan.

This was my first Nissan. I think they did a pretty good job on the car, despite its battery issues and other minor shortcomings (missing handle above driver where there's obviously supposed to be one, missing glovebox light where there's an obvious hole for one, touch screen bezel is beveled for right side driving position and wasn't re-engineered for American left side driving position, heated steering wheel turns off, I AGREE, I AGREE, I AGREE, every single day, etc...). The car, even with its faults, won me over... but the company did not. The LEAF will be my last Nissan for the reason mentioned above by thankyouOB. Nissan is failing to get out in front of the problem. "It's not a problem" is not what these people want to hear. Obviously it is a problem for these people. Saying it's not a problem does what exactly? Does it reassure the rest of us? Yeah, it reassures us that Nissan doesn't step up and take action for customers.

Nissans reaction is confusing to say the least. I don't think people want talk. They want Nissan to do something.

 

[kubel]

No the real question is: Why am I being forced to fund refueling stations along I-5? Gas stations are privately-owned. The electric stations should be as well.

As a libertarian minarchist, I totally agree. Taxpayer dollars should not go into subsidizing ANYTHING... including big oil, which has received BILLIONS of dollars in subsidies. I remind my friends that they receive more subsidies as oil addicts than I do as an EV nut, despite the incredible waste we have seen with companies like SPX.

I'd be happy to support you on this, but it might be best if we take it to another thread.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Everyone- we are getting many complaints of the off topic nature of this thread. Please stay on topic or post in another thread.

 

[GenericUser]

The advisory group idea was actually not conceived to address the battery capacity issue, though since it was talked about in Carla's letter I understand why it would seem that way. I am also clearly interested in that discussion and seeing it resolved, but these are separate efforts. Because it will take a little time to get the advisory group together, I really hope it doesn't have to specifically address the capacity issue - at least in the sense of it still being an acute customer service concern. I realize the technical discussion and long-term approach will be ongoing, and it should.

It certainly does seem as if the advisory board mentioned in the letter was intended to improve communication between owners and Nissan for the capacity issue as well as other issues of the same kind.

My point is that Nissan already has a robust network of dealers who communicate fine if you want to buy a Leaf. In fact, salesmen will be calling you repeatedly after you come in to drive one. They want you to buy one.

But the dealerships as well as Nissan itself have tried to ignore the catastrophically rapid capacity loss that we are all discussing.

And the lack of issue ownership evinced in the letter - the insistence that the Leafs in question are working normally - suggests the stonewalling strategy continues. In my view the formation of this so-called "advisory board" is an attempt to continue doing the same thing, this time by appeasing affected owners so that said owners will not pursue legal or regulatory relief.

Everyone knows that the issue is the lack of a TMS of any kind in the Leaf.

And you are now saying that this advisory group will not be involved in any effort to rapidly resolve this "acute" issue.

I agree with that.

Nissan has to acknowledge and own the problem of their poor design. They are still not doing that.

So I think it is time for the affected owners to take care of themselves, since Nissan so far has done nothing.

 

[cwerdna]

(Sorry to add another OT post.)

Everyone- we are getting many complaints of the off topic nature of this thread. Please stay on topic or post in another thread.

Agreed. Perhaps we can get those OT posts in question moved to another thread? They have nothing to do w/the "open letter".

There really should be no capacity losses in temperate climates after 10,000 or so miles.

I have been advocating it for a while now. I have 26,500 miles in 15 months ownership and NO LOSS of bars or range. How did I do it?

I NEVER CHARGE 80%

The battery needs to be "stretched" to maintain its physical space. If you consistenly charge to 80% you are "shrinking" the battery and it loses its capacity as a result. This is unscientific, but I have the Leaf to prove it, folks.

I highly doubt your assertions are correct based on everything I've read about li-ion batteries (e.g. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false and battery care recommendations from Toyota, Nissan and Tesla, along w/options they provide.

As a side note: I'm still on the original battery on my now over 5 year old Lenovo T61p laptop and it can still run for over 3 hours. I'm sure that the power manager (blog on it at http://web.archive.org/web/20100103000022/http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=52" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false helped as I tend to keep it between only 35 - 65% charge, unless I need to run on battery for a long time (then I charge to ~100%).

You living in a temperate climate is likely why you've seen no capacity bar loss. Charge to 100% everyday in Phoenix, drive the same amount of mileage and I'd wager you'd be a 3 or 4 bar loser now.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Please stop reporting multiple posts in this thread as off topic. I am aware of the many off topic posts here and the thousands of others on this forum. If you think a post is OT then mention it to the poster. We can't move every OT post on this forum as it would be a full time job. It is the responsibility of posters to police themselves. This forum has a big problem with staying on topic and starting far too many redundant threads. If members are unable to use some reasonable common sense we can just lock threads. Sometimes things go OT and that's ok but there is a point when it gets out of control. If someone requests that a thread stay on topic then please respect this. This thread is really specific so it should not be so OT.

 

[nosuchthing]

@cwerdna: Read my missive.

I said, It should not be happening in temperate climates, but it is. And most of those who lose capacity say, "I always charge to 80%" as this is supposed to prevent the battery capacity loss. I have seen it written too many times in this blog. They are "nice" to their batteries. To what end? They lost a bar.

If fact, it would be incumbent upon us to start keeping a running tab of how many Leafers in temperate climates lost a bar or two so far AND crosscheck it with their charging preferences.

Now, that would give us some interesting answers to this query, wouldn't it? And I promise to join the club if I lose a bar.

Nissan IS stonewalling. They are in denial to keep lawyers off their backs. They're taking the fifth. There is no other way to put it. Electric Prelude, please!

 

[surfingslovak]

@cwerdna: Read my missive.

I said, It should not be happening in temperate climates, but it is. And most of those who lose capacity say, "I always charge to 80%" as this is supposed to prevent the battery capacity loss. I have seen it written too many times in this blog. They are "nice" to their batteries. To what end? They lost a bar.

In regards to ambient temperature, please consider that the term "coastal microclimate" might not always mean the same thing. Depending on the latitude, the amount of solar loading can vary. Likewise, perhaps we can agree that the mild San Diego can have a slightly higher effective annual ambient temperature when compared to some places on the San Francisco Peninsula. The number of reported capacity bar losses in SoCal versus the SF Bay Area would seem to confirm this.

I believe that your Leaf is parked in SF proper during the day, which can be described as a significantly cooler microclimate than the Peninsula or the South Bay. I didn't look at the temp profiles, but I would not be surprised if SF was a bit of anomaly. I agree with your observation that 80% charging apparently did not delay loss of capacity very much in hot climates. It's difficult to quantify that exactly given the data we get from owners.