Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
surfingslovak said:
WetEV said:
I don't get why this is clear. If a replacement pack is $5000, and if the expected life of a battery pack is 35,000 miles in AZ, the cost per mile isn't unreasonable. Why should Nissan not sell the Leaf in AZ?

Would someone explain?
Nissan has never disclosed what a replacement pack would cost, and this figure is based on hearsay.

I wasn't asking for a legal case, just a reasonable explanation. The hearsay is backed up with pizza.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9957&hilit=pizza+replacement&start=30#p226811" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
I wanted to go back and readdress my earlier comments on the blog post by Mr. Larsen. When I first read his post, I got excited because for the first time I saw somebody siding with Nissan who used an actual Nissan document to support their argument. Previous posters were just using antictodal evidence and were theorizing and it was just a mess. I hoped that this blog post, using the document from Nissan would have generated some good discussion.

Instead, because the blogger used an editorial style in his review in which he gave a history with several errors, that also included several, what seemed like, personal attacks on the test participants, what we got was just a bunch of bickering. The conversation seems to have stalled. What I saw in his argument if you strip away all the commentary and just look at his data, was something interesting and I was sure Nissan was going to come to a similar conclusion, and based on the latest comments from Nissan, seems to have come true.
The first thing you come to when going through his report ( http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/capacity_kerfuffle/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) is the chart on the right hand side. He generated a chart that shows how much loss a car should have based on Nissans assumptions (12,500 miles per year). If we get to 20% loss in 60 months, that means 0.33% loss per month. This seems like a reasonable assumption and the chart seems reasonable.

Now lets apply this to our test cars. For simplicity sake, I'm going to just use one car. Sorry for picking on you whoever owns this car. You can apply this to more if you like. I'll use a high mileage car B494 at 29,000 miles. According to the chart this car at 29k should still have 91 percent of its capacity left. If you look at the chart in years, it should have (I'm guessing at 18 months...sorry for the guess, but I don't know the date for sure) 94 percent. Now I'm not sure how to weight these two numbers, but even if we use the worst case number, I'm sure that the owner of this car would be satisfied if the car still had 91 percent of its original capacity.

Now this is where the report and the document from Nissan (Technical Bulletin NTB11-076a) get a little messy. We know that this car should have 91% remaining, but 91% of what? I think we can all agree that it should be 91% of whatever capacity it had when it was new. This may vary from car to car, but it should be true that it loses 91% of ITS original, not some arbitrary number. But from the manufacturers point of view they need to pick some number as a baseline from which to test all their cars. So they need to have a number that is near the bottom of the range they produce to be comfortable. This brings us to the table on the TechBulletin. The table on page two describes how much capacity we can expect "on a new vehicle (no battery capacity loss)". They use average energy economy to see how the driver rates in efficiency and then go across the table to see how far you can go. The blogger made an incorrect assumption that the spread on the table is a variance on the driver efficiency (YMMV), but this is incorrect. The table shows consumption at exactly 4.0 m/kWh and gives a range of distances for a new car. Given that the line on the table is for eactly 4.0 then the range of miles relates to the capacity of the battery. This means that the usable battery capacity when new ranges from 76/4=19kWh to 84/4=21kWh. This shows a manufacturing variance of 10% which is quite high. From Nissan's point of view they would base losses off the lower of the two numbers. Do I believe that they have that big a variance in manufacturing? Absolutely not. This document in my opinion (here we go...you can ignore the rest of this sentence if you like) this document is just to allow Nissan technicians to look at a battery and to explain that everything is normal when it clearly is not. You can come up with your own idea as to why there is this spread, but the fact remains that this document exists and it is what Nissan techs are using to determine how much capacity you have lost. It is why so many have had their inspection and the results have come back "normal".

Ok, back to how much capacity is there really. Tony did a great job building the range chart on this site ( http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) The chart was built with emperical data from his original Leaf. There have been hundreds if not thousands of people who have looked at and used this chart, and nobody has come back to say that it is off by 10% when looking at a new vehicle. For myself, the chart is a little bit conservative, but very close to dead on. The chart also correlates very nicely with the the 38mph estimate on page 3 of the Nissan TechBulliten (TB). In fact, it is just a little bit conservative. What does this mean? It means the range chart is a very good tool for estimating range, and it matches Nissan's estimate, and it matches the upper estimate on the chart from page 2, and it matches all other documentation that I have ever seen that a new LEAF has a 24kWh pack that has 21kWh usable capacity. This makes the upper number the number that should be used and the lower number on the table on page 2 should be eliminated, but is there to cover Nissan from capacity loss.

So this means that we should be using the 84 miles to turtle number on the chart on page 2 of the TB. So now we are back to the 91% of 84 miles is what should have been the range of B494. 76.4 miles and it only did 59.3 miles which means it has a loss of 29.4 percent or in other words it has 70.6% of its original capacity which is well below the estimated 91% and it is why the owner of this car is rightly upset.

The other eye opening thing about this document, which I did not pick up earlier is that there is 21% of the total capacity at or below the last/bottom bar on a new car. If you look at the chart on page 2, you can see that it will go 68 miles until it reaches 1 bar remaining, and then go until 84 when it reaches turtle. Clearly this is something I overlooked as it is right there on Tony's chart. I'm not sure how this changes as the pack loses capacity, but I can imagine two ways. The first is that it is still 20% of what you have left, and the other is that it is the same as the original capacity and there is 16 miles on the last bar. If it is the first case, then B494 will get to one bar after driving 47.4 miles, and then will have 11.86 miles on the last bar. If on the other hand the last bar is a fixed capacity then they will reach the last bar in 43.3 miles, and then have 16 miles remaining. Either way this is a big eye opener for me in that this is why the owners are reporting that the car can only go 40 miles at this point. Most people will start to look for a place to stop and plug in once they get to the last bar. Particularly since the car becomes annoying and starts hounding you to do so once you are there.
 
palmermd - love it! Based on the testing I've done on my car, the number of miles above LBW is what you lose, The number between LBW and VLBW have stayed consistent, while in 3 months I've lost 10 miles off of the number to LBW. Between June and September, I have lost 10 miles off of the miles to LBW. In June I was at 58, now 46-48.
 
azdre said:
palmermd - love it! Based on the testing I've done on my car, the number of miles above LBW is what you lose, The number between LBW and VLBW have stayed consistent, while in 3 months I've lost 10 miles off of the number to LBW. Between June and September, I have lost 10 miles off of the miles to LBW. In June I was at 58, now 46-48.

If you check out my 85% chart, you'll see it reflects that. I didn't bother with making an 79% chart (2 bars missing), or greater.
 
TonyWilliams said:
azdre said:
palmermd - love it! Based on the testing I've done on my car, the number of miles above LBW is what you lose, The number between LBW and VLBW have stayed consistent, while in 3 months I've lost 10 miles off of the number to LBW. Between June and September, I have lost 10 miles off of the miles to LBW. In June I was at 58, now 46-48.

If you check out my 85% chart, you'll see it reflects that. I didn't bother with making an 79% chart (2 bars missing), or greater.

Nice! Vindicated once again. Thanks for pointing that out.
 
palmermd said:
I wanted to go back and readdress my earlier comments on the blog post by Mr. Larsen. When I first read his post, I got excited because for the first time I saw somebody siding with Nissan who used an actual Nissan document to support their argument. Previous posters were just using antictodal evidence and were theorizing and it was just a mess....

Now this is where the report and the document from Nissan (Technical Bulletin NTB11-076a) get a little messy.

You do realize that it's key document in my findings? I'm siding with Nissan, also. I believe tha the car will absolutely go 84 miles at 4 miles/kWh, and some number less with climate control on for that NEW car that they specify. Not a degraded one.
 
TonyWilliams said:
palmermd said:
I wanted to go back and readdress my earlier comments on the blog post by Mr. Larsen. When I first read his post, I got excited because for the first time I saw somebody siding with Nissan who used an actual Nissan document to support their argument. Previous posters were just using antictodal evidence and were theorizing and it was just a mess....

Now this is where the report and the document from Nissan (Technical Bulletin NTB11-076a) get a little messy.

You do realize that it's key document in my findings?

I got there the round about way. I first read it on his blog post. I actually had it downloaded as I've downloaded all the TSB's, but I never really read it until after I read his blog post. Then after comparing to your documents and reading some of the preliminary test thread again, I put 2+2 together. I guess I'm a little slow. When I saw your assumptions, and I agreed with them, I just overlooked your sources.
 
TonyWilliams said:
I'm siding with Nissan, also. I believe tha the car will absolutely go 84 miles at 4 miles/kWh, and some number less with climate control on for that NEW car that they specify. Not a degraded one.


That leads me to one question I had when looking at the table on page 2. Does Nissan in the Leaf not meter the climate control? It would be very easy to test for, but you probably know this off the top of you head. If the power is measured going out of the battery then the m/kWh is total consumption and it will go 84 miles when NEW with or without the climate control on at 4.0m/kWh. You'll just have to be driving a little bit slower to maintain the 4.0. If on the other hand the m/kWh is only power going to the traction motor then that could explain the range number shown on the table. This would be a huge mistake on Nissan's part if the HVAC and all other power is not metered on the same calculation, as the m/kWh would then be meaningless, especially if the heater were on full blast.

Easy test, just reset meter, drive a few miles to establish a number, blast the heater for a while while parked and then take another short drive. If it does not go down, there is a real problem.
 
palmermd said:
That leads me to one question I had when looking at the table on page 2. Does Nissan in the Leaf not meter the climate control? It would be very easy to test for, but you probably know this off the top of you head. If the power is measured going out of the battery then the m/kWh is total consumption and it will go 84 miles when NEW with or without the climate control on at 4.0m/kWh. You'll just have to be driving a little bit slower to maintain the 4.0. If on the other hand the m/kWh is only power going to the traction motor then that could explain the range number shown on the table.

You've broken the code! Yes, climate control is measured through the economy meter. Hence, they aren't specifying a 10% range variation for a new car; quite the opposite. The range will drop (from new car range of 84 / 4m/kWh) with climate control on.

So, as you summize, you'll have to slow down to get 4.0, or get less than 4.0 at the same speed with climate control on. Every parameter on my test protocol had a reason; the climate control was off to hit the target 4.0. Obviously, the car going through the air at 62mph uses the same power as any other LEAF in exactly the same conditions, so the wild swings in miles kWh of 3.7 to 4.4 (I think from memory) with climate control off suggests energy measuring problems.

But, I think we already know that.
 
edatoakrun said:
In your future endeavors, you might consider it a better procedure to complete the study, before you announce your conclusions, Tony.

I'm confident you would have found fault in any presentation. You're consistent there. I knew there were oversights, and they are disclosed as I find them. None erode the thesis in my estimation. We aren't ever going to make you and your fellow extreme minority of adversaries content with anything.

I put no effort trying in that regard.
 
surfingslovak said:
I must say that in this light Larsen's article, its content, its timing and the lack of response to factual problems with it, would make it appear that he wrote it on Nissan's request and with their help.

If Nissan helped with his seriously fact challenged piece, I think I know why our LEAFs are wilting!!!
 
TonyWilliams said:
You've broken the code! Yes, climate control is measured through the economy meter. Hence, they aren't specifying a 10% range variation for a new car; quite the opposite.


That is why, as I said in my lengthy post, that the only explanation for the range window would be a range of capacities. Since we know this is not true, then the lower number is just completely fabricated and serves no purpose other than to let the testers show that there is no capacity loss. I suggested we just dispose of this number (as did you for the test and later in rebuttals to deniers) since it is clearly fabricated. But I am also open to input from others (particularly Nissan) who think they know why this lower number exists.
 
azdre said:
palmermd - love it! Based on the testing I've done on my car, the number of miles above LBW is what you lose, The number between LBW and VLBW have stayed consistent, while in 3 months I've lost 10 miles off of the number to LBW. Between June and September, I have lost 10 miles off of the miles to LBW. In June I was at 58, now 46-48.

="azdre"

...Honestly, I don't know what to make of the test results. I never hoped to glean some final hallelujah moment to confirm that I in-fact cannot drive my car as far as I was able to last summer. But,,, I was happy to help. My car travelled 25 miles beyond LBW and still didn't hit turtle...

So, are you saying you think your LEAF has always had more than 25 Freeway miles left past LBW, at 62 mph (over 6 kWh), and this is not something that has changed from new?

I thought it had been determined that LEAFs consistently have only a little over half that, or ~3.6 kWh?

Never gone much past the VLBW, myself.
 
palmermd said:
...That is why, as I said in my lengthy post, that the only explanation for the range window would be a range of capacities. Since we know this is not true...


How do we know that there is not any variation of available battery capacities in new LEAFs?

And how do we know that the Phoenix test conditions resulted in all of the cars (or even any one of them) using precisely 4 m/kWh, so that the test distances observed are even valid for a direct comparison to the 76-84 miles at 4 m/kWh Nissan estimate?
 
Been thinking about palmermd's post/analysis. And I could not help but wonder, what kHw was used in EPA testing. Anything less might be ground for saying the car was not as advertised. If the car was tested with 21kWh, and Nissian is knowingly shipping cars with only 19kWh, with 10% less range, methinks that would be a serious case for a lawsuit. So if Nissian were to be saying 19kWh is he lower range of normal cars, the should have done EPA testing with that.
It would be fine to give people car that performs significantly above testing, but not below.
 
edatoakrun said:
palmermd said:
...That is why, as I said in my lengthy post, that the only explanation for the range window would be a range of capacities. Since we know this is not true...


How do we know that there is not any variation of available battery capacities in new LEAFs?

And how do we know that the Phoenix test conditions resulted in all of the cars (or even any one of them) using precisely 4 m/kWh, so that the test distances observed are even valid for a direct comparison to the 76-84 miles at 4 m/kWh Nissan estimate?


Good questions. As I said in my earlier post, there will be some manufacturing variability. And Nissan rightly so will use the low end of this variation for their baseline. But I have a hard time believing that the variation is 10%. If it is they need to get out of the battery making business. I would give them 1% but even then this is a terrible sign of quality control on their part if this is true. This would put the low end at 20.79kWh instead of 21.

As far as getting 4.0 m/kWh on the test this too could vary and we can't be certain the exact value but it could not have been so far off as to cause a car expected to go 70 some miles to not even reach 60.

Sorry I can't do more calcs and references to other quotes but I'm typing on my cell phone at the moment.

What do you calculate the variance for efficiency could have been?
 
palmermd said:
Good questions. As I said in my earlier post, there will be some manufacturing variability. And Nissan rightly so will use the low end of this variation for their baseline. But I have a hard time believing that the variation is 10%. If it is they need to get out of the battery making business.

I’m quite confident that considerable variability in new LEAF battery capacity exists, since my first LEAF came in at the low end of the range. 62 miles from 100% charge to LBW (using a 4 mile/kWh range test), after less than four months and 3,500 miles of very mild, South Florida wintertime temperatures (60s at night and 70s during the day).

When I bought the first LEAF, I was willing to accept the inevitable capacity losses, but not when I realized I had started at the low end of the range to begin with. The usable battery capacity on my new LEAF is closer to the top end of the Nissan's range for a new battery, and the difference between the two LEAFs was very noticeable when I switched.
 
ok, I'm back. So lets assume 20.75kWh baseline (which is very favorable to Nissan) and then also lets assume that they were driving 65mph instead of 60 so they got about 3.5m/kWh. The distance to turtle would be 20.75*4 which is 83 miles (instead of 84). Now lets also assume that they drove the 59.3 miles at 3.5m/kWh, which means that they used 16.9kWh on the drive. 16.9/20.75 means that they have still lost 19% of the capacity of their pack. That is with your assumed huge error in efficiency from the test. The car would still be nearly 3 years ahead of the projected capacity loss. So anyhow these exaggerated numbers still show a big loss, and I don't think very many people would argue that the test was that far off.
 
palmermd said:
But I am also open to input from others (particularly Nissan) who think they know why this lower number exists.
As I have stated prior to your long analysis, I think 1 kWh is to account for pack imbalance and the rest is to account for battery degradation prior to purchase.
 
Weatherman said:
I’m quite confident that considerable variability in new LEAF battery capacity exists, since my first LEAF came in at the low end of the range.

As part of the manufacturing process Nissan grades each cell, they probably attempt to group cells together of a certain capacity.. I bet the 281 meter will not tell you this and its automatically set to 281 when it leaves the factory. Perhaps the cell variability falls within the error budget of the GUID meter anyways.
 
Back
Top