Please help! urgent/1 day to take back Leaf. range is awful

[GaslessInSeattle]

hmm, I think you will be fine and mostly have the new car jitters. the fact that you Leased is the key, the battery is unlikely to drop in capacity much in two to three years.
a few questions for you:
-do you have 240V for charging at home or are you trying to charge at 110V? If you are trying to do all this on 110V, you will make yourself batty!
-are you prewarming the car, if you prewarm on 110V you will reduce the range because the draw from the CC is more than 110V provides.
-what mode are you using for climate control? you must learn how the CC works and how it's meant to be integrated with prewarming!

As for the math you are using, it's virtually useless. The GOM is irrelevant, the % charge of a quick charger tends to be pretty off. If you are really worried about your range, which I doubt is actually the problem, charge the car up all the way until the BMS ends the charge and the car shows 12 bars, anything less is hard to calculate and be accurate about. With a 12 bar truly 100% SOC charge and plugged in to 240 V, absolutely use the prewarming function through a smart phone app. the car is designed to prewarm on shore power, the heater is very hungry, which in a way is good, if you are plugged in to shore power is heats the car up really fast! if you cant prewarm, CC will take a big bite out of your range, as much 50%. the longer you prewarm the longer you can go without running Climate control.

to get decent miles out of the Leaf during the winter you have to master the climate control. The defrost and AC combined with the heat can turn into a black hole of energy consumption, especially if starting from cold, even worse if the car is damp inside. The power defrost blows cold air at you, the AC and heater attempt to warm the air, the cold driver turns up the heat, it's a downward spiral, combine that with the roller coaster of the GOM and you will be checking yourself into the nearest psych ward to be treated for range anxiety, a new DSM4 diagnosis ;~). if you have heated seat and steering wheel, use those liberally, they use very little energy!

so, try this:
prewarm the car for 30 minutes on 240V before leaving in the morning after a 100% charge. using the mode button, choose foot/defog. then hit the on off button and assure you see "climate control off" on the screen. this combination will retain the most heat for the beginning of the drive without freezing your feed so much. Actually, I set the climate control at this point to what I would want it to be when I need to turn it on so I don't have to fiddle so much while driving. I put the temp at 68, the CC mode to Foot/defog, a turn the power defrost off! and the AC off. I put the fan at two bars... then turn the Climate control off. this way all I have to do is hit one button, the on button and everything is set the way I want. Chances are, you will get all the way to work without having to turn the CC on. this will dramatically improve your range. you sound like you have most of the basic hypermiling down, so for the first few trips, continue being conservative with your driving, I think you will be relieved to see the effect, even pleased.

trust me, it gets better, you will probably love this car and it should easily drive 50 miles on a single charge even with several years of use. your actual distance to VLB will more likely be around 75 miles... it takes a while to learn to trust that. you might even want to drive it all the way down close to home so that you know what to expect, the GOM gets much more accurate as it reaches the lower end of SOC.

hang in there, and don't forget, you are paying nearly 1/10th per mile to drive this car, or about 2-3 cents a mile!

 

[Nubo]

-are you prewarming the car, if you prewarm on 110V you will reduce the range because the draw from the CC is more than 110V provides.

Good point, prewarming will likely steal charge if using L1 charging. It can even steal charge on L2 for the first few minutes but then will replenish when the car is warm and drawing less heat. I agree 30 minutes is a good amount of time for pre-heat. It gets all the materials in the cabin warmed up and lets you leave will a full batt and the maximum "thermal inertia".

 

[Den]

but that's what the quick charger at the Nissan headquarters told me.

QC shows real (full 24kWh) percentage of the battery. When it is only usable for 21kWh at summer time!

E.g. if you will drive Leaf empty to QC, it will still show 12% left (3kWh reserve that can't be used).
If you plug fully (100%) charged Leaf to QC on winter (-10C/14F) - it will show about 87-89% because it can't charge more due to low battery temperature (3 bars).

So on winter you have only about 75% of 24kWh = 18kWh

With heater on (uses about 2kW in ECO mode at -10C/14F) my consumption is about 18kWh/100km, so I can drive about 100km (62 miles). I always keep this (100km) in mind as range for cold weather, not more!

With heater turned off (if you don't preheat your feet will freeze!!!) I can drive about 120km (75 miles) with 15kWh/100km consumption.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

even worse, around here, different QC's will charge to different amounts when set to charge to 100%... it's really not easy to get a true 100% charge on a QC. you are best to move it over to a 240V charging station once it's charged to around 80% if you really need a 100% charge.

but that's what the quick charger at the Nissan headquarters told me.

QC shows real (full 24kWh) percentage of the battery. When it is only usable for 21kWh at summer time!

E.g. if you will drive Leaf empty to QC, it will still show 12% left (3kWh reserve that can't be used).
If you plug fully (100%) charged Leaf to QC on winter (-10C/14F) - it will show about 87-89% because it can't charge more due to low battery temperature (3 bars).

So on winter you have only about 75% of 24kWh = 18kWh

With heater on (uses about 2kW in ECO mode at -10C/14F) my consumption is about 18kWh/100km, so I can drive about 100km (62 miles). I always keep this (100km) in mind as range for cold weather, not more!

With heater turned off (if you don't preheat your feet will freeze!!!) I can drive about 120km (75 miles) with 15kWh/100km consumption.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

And remember that going a little slow on a 26 mile commute doesn't add up to costing you much time wise. Not ever needing fuel on your way to work is awesome! 52 mile round trip might be pushing your comfort zone in the really cold weather we've had this month, but the last three days have been really warm, like 70's down to maybe 30 today. That's what would concern me. Make sure you use eco mode, that will help your regen braking skills. Try to stop without using your pedal. Please let us know if you decide to keep the car, or run out of juice. We have never turtled, but we plan carefully.

 

[Den]

even worse, around here, different QC's will charge to different amounts when set to charge to 100%... it's really not easy to get a true 100% charge on a QC. you are best to move it over to a 240V charging station once it's charged to around 80% if you really need a 100% charge.

I meant exactly that I charged till 100% (12 bars) from 240V network and then drove to QC to check the level and it was 86% after 2,3km trip.

 

[TonyWilliams]

E.g. if you will drive Leaf empty to QC, it will still show 12% left (3kWh reserve that can't be used).

The bottom energy of the battery that can't be accessed is about 0.5kWh.

So on winter you have only about 75% of 24kWh = 18kWh

24kWh isn't a factor for anything to do with range on a LEAF. Battery temperature directly affects any battery capacity. In particular to the LEAF battery, in freezing temperatures of (30F / 0C), there is a 10% capacity reduction, and similarly a 20% reduction at -10F/-23C

In addition,mother heater will consume an additional large amount of power.

 

[Den]

The bottom energy of the battery that can't be accessed is about 0.5kWh.

Do you mean that 23,5kWh (out of fresh 24kWh battery) is usable? Why it is everywhere said that this amount is 21kWh out of 24kWh?

 

[Den]

24kWh isn't a factor for anything to do with range on a LEAF.

I never said that it has something to do with range. I said that in my opinion DC QC (50kW) shows percentage based on full battery capacity that is 24kW, when Leaf and Carwings shows only usable part (21kW at summer and less at winter). But QC shows something different, and it seems like it shows percentage of full 24kWh capacity.

 

[Reddy]

1st advice: Read everything you can on this forum. You'll learn what you need here.
Start at the wiki: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Hmmm, the weather channel said it rained 1.5 in yesterday. Combined with wind and cold temps, I can see your frustration. Relax as others have said. As a newbie in winter, this is likely the "worst" you will see (except a heavy snow). Are you parking outside (cold soaked)? Are you pre-heating while plugged in? Did you make your commute? Does the car meet your current needs? Do you have another car for emergencies or unforeseen situations? All of these things (and much more) are important. Forget about the range. It's NOT as important as you think.

Sounds like you jumped on one of the lease specials and are having buyers remorse. Remember, the car is just a tool with limitations (just like any other tool). Did you buy it planning to water-ski behind it? Nope, it probably isn't the best tool for that. Planning to drive cross-country or 100 miles per day? Again, probably not the best tool for this. Unfortunately, as others have said, car dealers are really just trying to "sell" you something and often don't provide accurate information to make an informed decision.

I bet everyone on this forum has heard the 100 mile range spouted by the salesmen. Yup, you can do that under a very limited set of circumstances (but less than 50 posters have actually done it as reported here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=154572#p154572). Distance to empty is hugely affected by water (rain or puddles on the road), wind (I doubled my ICE mpg once with a 40 mph tailwind!), temps (batteries may only provide 50% or less energy at very low temps), speed (again 50% or more at very high speeds). Forget about the ultimate range of the car (even though I am asked that question every time someone talks to me).

Drive the car from completely full (after charging all night at home on 240 V) and drive a realist trip probably around 60 miles, circling around home until you receive the 1st low battery warning (LBW) (probably another 10-20 miles available) and then the 2nd warning (VLBW) (maybe another 5-10 miles available). Don't go to TURTLE unless you are on city streets and right near your house since you may only have 1/2mile range left). Then, once you've done that (including risking having to call for a tow truck), report back and let us know your REAL distance. That should help clear some of the range anxiety and provide your with a better understanding whether the car will meet your needs.

Reddy.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The bottom energy of the battery that can't be accessed is about 0.5kWh.

Do you mean that 23,5kWh (out of fresh 24kWh battery) is usable? Why it is everywhere said that this amount is 21kWh out of 24kWh?

24kWh to 21.5kWk are not usable

0.5kWh to 0kWh are also not usable

21kWh between 0.5kWh and 21.5kWh are usable for a battery in new condition, non degraded, room temperature of 70F/20C.

 

[TonyWilliams]

24kWh isn't a factor for anything to do with range on a LEAF.

I never said that it has something to do with range. I said that in my opinion DC QC (50kW) shows percentage based on full battery capacity that is 24kW, when Leaf and Carwings shows only usable part (21kW at summer and less at winter). But QC shows something different, and it seems like it shows percentage of full 24kWh capacity.

The LEAF reports to the DC CHAdeMO charger what its State Of Charge (SOC) is. Unfortunately, not every DC charger reports this very well. Yes, it is most likely (in most instances) a measurement of 24kWh, where 100% equals 24kWh that the car will never reach.

I wouldn't rely on any of those DC charger reports.

 

[ERG4ALL]

Are you pre-heating your LEAF before you disconnect from house power? That may help a little.

 

[Dennas]

Wow! This is an awesome group of people.

So, this morning I charged to 100% (stopped on its own and 12 bars). I drove the commuter route that we carefully explained in detail to the dealer guy. ("Oh, no problem!"). I drove in 34 deg sunny weather over somewhat rolling hill terrain that we have here. Most of the trip is interstate. I went 50-70 depending on traffic. I then turned around and went home, on a warmed battery instead of a cold one.
I drove as steady as I could, coasting as much as possible and taking advantage of downhills to build speed up.
26 miles there took 5 bars. 26 miles back took another 5.
I drove 1 mile more and got the LBC warning. 5 more and got VLBW. 1 mile later lines appeared instead of bars and numbers. I was in the Nissan HQ parking lot and then did a QC to regain mobility.

Total at end of trip: 60.2 miles maximum range. The bars are about 5 miles each.

With colder temps and/or water a 52 mile trip is cutting it pretty dang close. We were not told to expect 100 so much as around 93 for average range. I read up and decided that what i figured was low, the 73 EPA rating, was just good enough to work.

So I went back to the dealer today - because stress is a real issue for my wife and can aggravate a condition that can lead to hospital stays if things get too bad. I had explained our situation in detail and that there is no possibility of plugging in at work and no QC along the way. I was told:

1. The battery life will increase over the first few weeks/months as they become conditioned
2. The car will somehow adjust itself to my driving style and go further
3. wife & I will improve our driving skills leading to better range
4. We need to have the 220 L2 charger to get better results.
5. One of your battery packs might be defective
And after the battery test came back A-OK:
6. 60.2 miles is just about right for the current weather and our hills.

3 & 4 sound plausible. My reply to 6 was, why did you tell me 93?

Also was told that my 3 days to return it are void because of the tax incentives that "can't be reversed".

I have not been able to read all the posts since I'm on my phone but what I've seen is great. As soon as I get to my laptop ill go through them all better. I'm going back to the dealer since I left it there.

Will I see better range with the same conditions in a few weeks?

I have not pre heated at all, but I have run the heater during most of the trip

 

[davewill]

... Also was told that my 3 days to return it are void because of the tax incentives that "can't be reversed" ...

Complete baloney. The dealer will say ANYTHING to get you to keep the car. If you want to return it, you'll need to stand your ground (and maybe call a lawyer) and do so.

Will I see better range with the same conditions in a few weeks?

I have not pre heated at all, but I have run the heater during most of the trip

No, I'm afraid not. If you're going to drive with the heat on, this is pretty much the range you're going to get.

 

[cwerdna]

I think a Leaf owner needs to really come up with and own a standard questionnaire...

Hmm. Perhaps a small program or a spreadsheet that asks a few questions like:

How far is you daily commute (one way)?
How far are other drives might you want to take in this car on a regular basis?
How fast is your commute?
Do you have charging at work?
If so, is the charging at work something that would be reasonable every day?
Where do you live? (Or maybe just get a result from Stoaty's battery life estimate?)
Lease only or plan to own?
When it is cold, do you crank up the heat or defrost only when needed?
Some questions about charge stop tolerance.

Then does a few computations and maps into :
(green) (No problem, lots of margin)
(yellow) (think twice)
(red)(Danger Will Robertson!)
....

I wasn't thinking quite along those lines. There used to be a calculator somewhere on Nissan's page (no, not the scenarios at http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_micro.section_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false that would ask you stuff like how far is your commute, whether you can charge at work, etc. and it'd tell if you the Leaf was suitable for you or not, as a pre-sales qualifier/filter. I remember seeing it in the last few weeks but can't find it anymore.

I'm thinking of a standard short questionnaire when someone complains about "poor range", so that we're all on the same page. Seems we need to know basics like the miles/kwh they're seeing on the gauge (and probably not Carwings), how fast they're driving, are they using the heater? (if not, how do they know they're not using it?), starting fuel bars, ending fuel bars, how they're "determining" their range, # of capacity bars lost, charging to 80% or 100%, etc. A few more questions at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261466#p261466" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I created http://priuschat.com/threads/fuel-economy-complaints-queries-please-copy-paste-answer-these-questions-esp-if-youre-new.77074/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; in response to people complaining about "poor" mileage w/their Prius who supply scant or no info. I got tired of not having enough info, asking basically the same questions over and over (sometimes to never get a response or only partial responses), lots of people also asking questions and making guesses (due to lack of basic info), etc. And, all of us could go through a whole bunch of effort in vain because frequently, the poster never even returned to answer our requests for info. :roll:

At least if they answered, we can say things to them like your oil is overfilled, get your car re-aligned, inflate your tires, don't drive in B mode, slow down, stop doing ____, do ____, you have tires that aren't LRR, that's normal as short drives kill mileage, etc. or, no that's way too low for that type of commute, something else is wrong.

 

[MrIanB]

1&2 are total b.s. by dealer. If you don't feel comfortable, return the car while you can. Otherwise u will b unhappy the whole time and still have to make payments. Either wait for the 2013 or go w a Volt to ease range anxiety.

When I got Chili, I tested my 3 longest trips that I would do, dr office/airport/my sisters house with a distance of 50-60 miles round trip. The car did it w no problems here in Texas with ac/heater partially on as needed. Now, a year later, I still have all my bars, range has gone down by 10% but can still make all 3 trips w no problems.

Good luck,

Ian B

 

[cwerdna]

Side note: re: 93 or 100 miles being BS, unless you're going slow and avoiding heater use.

Tony Williams along w/some others here did a range of test of Phoenician Leafs, some of which had capacity bar loss due to the hot summers there. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=225481" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was the procedure. Climate control was OFF. Tony was finally able to get a "control" car that was almost brand new. Result at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=241914#p241914" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I'm pretty sure he took that control car down to turtle.

 

[Reddy]

Wow! This is an awesome group of people.

Glad to see you back. I was afraid we'd lost you! Thanks for posting the new results. With this info I'm sure others will help as well. 26 mi using 5 bars seems about right for your conditions. You'll improve with time and temps. I've included some more links to previous discussions that may help.

Bottom line: 60 miles in the cold (especially with the heater on) is right at the limit of the Leaf. Some days it will be easy, other times impossible (rain, wind, traffic, accident, detour, etc.). Without the heat, it is doable unless something really bad happens. If that's too much stress and if you have another car, then switch when the situation looks too close. Most people here have another gas vehicle (although there are some with only a Leaf or with a Volt or another EV).

Get that Leaf in the garage and pre-heat, you'll love it. The car and batteries will be warmer and have a bit more range. Charge to 100% (you're leasing so don't worry about it) until it's warmer and you've learned how much range you really have. Also, if you finish charging right before leaving, the battery will be a bit warmer. If I were you, I'd set to L2 charge starting about 1am for 8am departure (set the climate control for 8am time of departure). If you have L1 only then that won't work for your distances.

I find that I am trying to drive EV all the time, even beyond the normal range. I did 80 mi to turtle without heat at 30 F just to see what my "ultimate" limit was. I've only done that once and normally go about 10 mi per day. If I had to commute 60 mi per day, then I'd definitely have several back up plans, alternative car, carpool, heated socks/jacket, emergency charging locations, etc. However, we just came out of a month of 20 F and I didn't worry at all since I didn't drive more than 30 miles in any one day. Next week I will do a 65 mi evening concert with a late return. I'll preheat, charge to 100% and not use any heat on the drive out. I've arranged for about 2hr of L1 charging at a restaurant. That gives me enough extra so that I can use heat on the return trip. Last time (in the 20s F) I returned with 2 bars so probably didn't even need to charge (but that extra buffer gave me peace of mind in the literal "middle of nowhere" and miles to the nearest L1 receptacle). Yes, it's extra planning and I have another gas vehicle, but driving the EV is well worth the extra thought. When temps warms up, I plan to do some out of town trips (the nearest L2 charging stations are 65 and 75 miles away in opposite directions). We'll see how that goes. I'll probably cross 10,000 mi next week (year and a half).

Reddy

Cold http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10971&p=261834#p261834
Cold http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11349&hilit=cold&start=10#p261900
Cold http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11123&p=255938#p255938
Cold http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=7634&p=243033&hilit=cold#p243033
L1 vs L2 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4840&p=260842#p260842
L1 vs L2 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10965&p=252095#p252095
Experience http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11110&p=255860#p255860
Plans http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11318&p=261724#p261077

EDIT:
1&2 are bogus. The battery is as good as it gets (except cold does reduce available energy)
3: True
4: Absolutely true. Anything more than about 50 mi you need 240 V L2 (see threads above).

 

[LEAFfan]

This will help you with 'range anxiety': Those two bottom fuel bars are not Red; those are for the battery capacity. There's a lot of miles in the bottom two fuel bars. I drove 50 miles once just on the last two and still had 4% left.