QC road trip? Seriously?

[LTLFTcomposite]

We don't have QC at all yet in this area, but I don't see how you make a 200 mile trip with these things. You can only do 80% charge on QC, right? 70 mile range at highway speed drops to more like 50-ish, so you're stopping every 50 miles for half an hour? Then get a few more Leafs on the road and there's a good chance you get to the next waypoint to find the L3 stations already in use, with one or two cars in line ahead of you, particularly at peak times on some routes like LA to Vegas or S FL to Orlando on a Friday night.

Not that there isn't value if you have to make a one stop trip, or if you are moving and don't want to flatbed the car, then maybe you make it work, but longer trips on a regular basis are only going to work for the die hard fanatics IMO. L3 stations around town would be great though for providing a psychological safety net for people worried they will run out.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Seriously? Yes in Europe http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7858

 

[davewill]

To my thinking, you have to combine it with L2 at your destination(s). If I can drive to my destination with one QC stop, opportunity charge while I'm shopping, working, or whatever, trickle overnight at my hotel, then finally a one QC stop to get home, I can do up to 200mi to a destination. I've done a 120mi one way overnight trip on L2, so I know it can work.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

To my thinking, you have to combine it with L2 at your destination(s). If I can drive to my destination with one QC stop, opportunity charge while I'm shopping, working, or whatever, trickle overnight at my hotel, then finally a one QC stop to get home, I can do up to 200mi to a destination. I've done a 120mi one way overnight trip on L2, so I know it can work.

Can you break that down? I assume you didn't go 120 miles on one charge.

 

[edatoakrun]

We don't have QC at all yet in this area, but I don't see how you make a 200 mile trip with these things. You can only do 80% charge on QC, right? 70 mile range at highway speed drops to more like 50-ish, so you're stopping every 50 miles for half an hour? Then get a few more Leafs on the road and there's a good chance you get to the next waypoint to find the L3 stations already in use, with one or two cars in line ahead of you, particularly at peak times on some routes like LA to Vegas or S FL to Orlando on a Friday night.

Not that there isn't value if you have to make a one stop trip, or if you are moving and don't want to flatbed the car, then maybe you make it work, but longer trips on a regular basis are only going to work for the die hard fanatics IMO. L3 stations around town would be great though for providing a psychological safety net for people worried they will run out.

This has been discussed many times before, most recently last week, in the thread below.

I don't see the the reason for your new thread, with the FUD title.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8290&start=90" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A good approximation of additional freeway travel time, using 50 kW fast charging, for every QC capable BEV, after it's initial charge is used (about 70 miles for a LEAF) is one additional hour of total travel time, for each 100 to 120 miles of QC travel.

If you don't like that reality, or your vehicle is not QC capable, then just stay home.

Seriously.

 

[RegGuheert]

The 50-mile range reminds me of the old railroads in Kansas. I'm pretty sure the towns along what is now I-70 though Kansas are 50 miles apart since that is how far the locomotives could go before they needed water. Of course you could probably fill the boiler of a locomotive with water quicker than you can fill the batteries of a Nissan LEAF!

Perhaps there should be QC stations in each of those towns in Kansas on I-70 so LEAFs can drive through?

 

[davewill]

To my thinking, you have to combine it with L2 at your destination(s). If I can drive to my destination with one QC stop, opportunity charge while I'm shopping, working, or whatever, trickle overnight at my hotel, then finally a one QC stop to get home, I can do up to 200mi to a destination. I've done a 120mi one way overnight trip on L2, so I know it can work.

Can you break that down? I assume you didn't go 120 miles on one charge.

Started at home, full charge. Did about 70+mi to first destination. Plugged in L2 for a three hour lunch and shopping stop, 20mi more to plug in again for 3 more hours. Another 20+mi to a show (no charging) and then the hotel (trickle overnight to 80%). Ran around the next day, without charging for about 45 mi worth, ended at a mall where we spent 4-5hr, topped up to full on L2, and made a 70+mi run home. I had another stop planned for a quick L2 on the way home if we'd needed it, but everything was green so I passed that one up and I got home just as LBW hit. Looking back I can see that my "120 miles" included all the running around, I had just been thinking back to how many miles I had put on the odometer and divided by two. The max distance from home was probably less than 100 miles.

With one 20-30 minute QC each way, I could have traveled by 50 miles farther away, two QCs each way (my personal limit for practicality), and you get 150-170 miles away from home. Not 200.

 

[edatoakrun]

The 50-mile range reminds me of the old railroads in Kansas. I'm pretty sure the towns along what is now I-70 though Kansas are 50 miles apart since that is how far the locomotives could go before they needed water. Of course you could probably fill the boiler of a locomotive with water quicker than you can fill the batteries of a Nissan LEAF!

Perhaps there should be QC stations in each of those towns in Kansas on I-70 so LEAFs can drive through?

In the inter-mountain area, where I live, the stage stations were placed about as far apart as a fresh team could pull the coach. Conveniently, refreshment was offered, at each charge point, to passengers as well as draft animals.

And, often, other travelers services were offered upstairs...

Ingot, Bullskin, Buzzard Roost, Fender's place, Uncle Runt's, Mineral, Terry Mill, are all old "charge points" nearby, that are now mostly ruins, with only the place names left.

They were about 10 miles apart over the mountain passes, and up to about 20 miles apart, on more gentle grades.

No level roads nearby, so none of the local stage coaches ever made it into " the 100 mile club"...

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I don't see the the reason for your new thread, with the FUD title.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8290&start=90" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the reference. I hadn't read that other thread as the title referred to hot battery warning.

For the life of me I can't figure out how Tony added 140 minutes of L3 charging time but he only added 107 minutes to the total trip time compared to the gas car. It seems once the initial (100%) charge is gone, you're into a cycle of 35 minutes (44 miles) of driving, 35 minutes parked. That is about 35mph.

 

[adric22]

We don't have QC at all yet in this area, but I don't see how you make a 200 mile trip with these things. You can only do 80% charge on QC, right? 70 mile range at highway speed drops to more like 50-ish, so you're stopping every 50 miles for half an hour? Then get a few more Leafs on the road and there's a good chance you get to the next waypoint to find the L3 stations already in use, with one or two cars in line ahead of you.

I've made the same observation many times. While I do see some value in a QC network, I just don't see the practicality in using them for a road trip where more than one QC is required. Now with an EV that could manage 100 miles on the highway between QC's, that I could see.

The best use for QC, in my opinion, would be situations where you are doing a lot of driving around town in one day and you need to recharge quickly during the day.

 

[lpickup]

It seems once the initial (100%) charge is gone, you're into a cycle of 35 minutes (44 miles) of driving, 35 minutes parked. That is about 35mph.

I don't want to derail your point, but it looks like you are cruising at 75mph. Maybe that's just the safe speed to travel in your area, but it seems like you could get a significant extension just by going 65: 46 min (50 miles), 35 minutes parked. Sure, it doesn't help the average speed any though.

 

[lpickup]

While I do see some value in a QC network, I just don't see the practicality in using them for a road trip where more than one QC is required./quote]

This is a very LEAF centric attitude. As you point out, other (future?) EVs with longer ranges might turn the tables slightly.

However, with the LEAF, I agree. For most people I think you are probably talking about 1 or 2 QC's per trip before it starts to look pretty uncompetitive compared to using gas. Especially at a $12.50 / QC price point, I ran the numbers and it would cost about the same to drive 180 miles (with 2 QC stops + some L2) with the LEAF as it would in a 25 mpg gas car, but it would take an extra hour or two in the LEAF. I'd still do it if there were a great advantage to having my LEAF at the destination (maybe I was going to be there for a week or two) or if there were only 1 QC, but after 1 (or maybe 2) QC stops, driving the LEAF that distance definitely falls into the realm of the hard core user.

But I'm perfectly okay with that. I did not buy the LEAF to go on distance trips. It was sold to me as a commuter car, and that gets me by 95% of the time.

 

[edatoakrun]

"lpickup"]...I ran the numbers and it would cost about the same to drive 180 miles (with 2 QC stops + some L2) with the LEAF as it would in a 25 mpg gas car, but it would take an extra hour or two in the LEAF. I'd still do it if there were a great advantage to having my LEAF at the destination (maybe I was going to be there for a week or two) or if there were only 1 QC, but after 1 (or maybe 2) QC stops, driving the LEAF that distance definitely falls into the realm of the hard core user.

But I'm perfectly okay with that. I did not buy the LEAF to go on distance trips. It was sold to me as a commuter car, and that gets me by 95% of the time.

Me too.

The big $ savings for me from QC, is that it would increase that 95% BEV preference rate, to 99.5%, to all my trips up to about 200 miles.

Then I would sell my "5%-use" ICEV Which is taking up space, and costing me well over 1$ a mile for use, in Registration fees maintenance and insurance, even before I put any gas into the damn thing.

And I'd rent a car, whenever I needed the "0.05%-use" vehicle.

 

[padamson1]

The big $ savings for me from QC, is that it would increase that 95% BEV preference rate, to 99.5%, to all my trips up to about 200 miles.

Then I would sell my "5%-use" ICEV Which is taking up space, and costing me well over 1$ a mile for use, in Registration fees maintenance and insurance, even before I put any gas into the damn thing.

And I'd rent a car, whenever I needed the "0.05%-use" vehicle.

If you live in a major metropolitan area I would consider ZipCar. It's very convenient and, if we reserve a few days in advance, we always get the car we want. Audi A4 to go skiing, Prius for long trips, and a pickup to haul stuff around. You can rent by the hour and daily rates are competitive too.

As I said in another thread, I just don't think trips >150mi are practical in a LEAF, even with QCs, unless I have a lot of time to waste.

 

[etrans]

Has anyone put a Leaf on Amtrak's car carrier doen to Florida? That seems pretty civilized and convenient.

 

[smkettner]

I agree with the OP. Need realistic 200 mile range to make a decent road trip (one QC). Sure it can be done as is but would seem to really test the patience and commitment to make 300 miles on electric. JMHO.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Has anyone put a Leaf on Amtrak's car carrier doen to Florida? That seems pretty civilized and convenient.

I have not but +1

HSR and autotrains combined with EVs (and some L3) would make a great holistic solution IMO. Imagine if you could get L1 trickle charging from head end power.

Might be a little dicey navigating around the news trucks in Sanford these days though.

 

[cwerdna]

This has been discussed many times before, most recently last week, in the thread below.

I don't see the the reason for your new thread, with the FUD title.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8290&start=90" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A good approximation of additional freeway travel time, using 50 kW fast charging, for every QC capable BEV, after it's initial charge is used (about 70 miles for a LEAF) is one additional hour of total travel time, for each 100 to 120 miles of QC travel.

If you don't like that reality, or your vehicle is not QC capable, then just stay home.

Seriously.

We also had some discussion at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=109125#p109125" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I think trying to use QC w/the Leaf's range to go from the Bay Area to So Cal is simply impractical, even if there were QC stations often enough on the way. The # of extra stops and time needed for charging makes an already long drive of 300+ miles MUCH longer.

 

[walterbays]

I don't see how you make a 200 mile trip with these things.

Here's a 200 mile trip someone could make, London to Manchester. Perhaps Kevin Sharpe could tell us if this would work as well in practice as Google maps makes it look in theory. Driving an ICE all the way it's 4 hours. Add 30 minutes rest stops and it's 4:30.

In a Leaf you could stop to recharge at CHAdeMO stations in Cranfield and Sutton Coldfield. The last leg of the trip is the longest at 83 miles so you'd want to watch your speed and spend maybe a full hour eating in Sutton Coldfield while you get a 100% charge. That's 1:30 total for the two stops to refuel car and driver, for a total of 5:30. Longer, but not unreasonably so.

What might you do on a trip longer than 200 miles, and through a country with far fewer CHAdeMO stations than the UK? Say France, which only has 15 times as many as California - which is to say it has 15. Suppose you travel from Liege, Belgium to Lyon, France. Driving an ICE all the way it's 9:20 in the car. Add two stops for meals and a few 10 minute rest and refuel stops and it's about 12 hours.

Or, drive your Leaf 73 miles to Brussels in 1:12 and stop at one of the 12 CHAdeMO stations in the city to recharge for 20-30 minutes to bring the charge back to 80%-90%. Continue 64 miles to Lille in 0:59. Wait 30 minutes for the TGV. Ride to Lyon in 3:19 eating on board the train. Total about 6 hours.

When you arrive at the Lyon train station, rent a Car2Go EV with a swipe of your card for a few cents a minute to drive to your hotel where you leave it.

 

[LakeLeaf]

Hard to imagine what a future QC station would look like.

Most gas stations have a dozen fill hoses or more where it takes maybe 5 minutes to fill up. At the cheap priced stations around us, there is often a line waiting for a pump.

If the EV gets to the point of needing something similar - hard to imagine how one would power a dozen or more CHAdeMO connectors. Maybe you'd have some type of valet service to fill you car while you go inside a business to eat/shop/etc, instead of waiting at the charger.

Likely the chargers will get faster, but they'd still draw a whole lotta power.