Range Chart

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thankyouOB said:
so, are you saying that the number of bars is 12 you can see and 2 that you cant....so multiples are really 14 times whatever you are averaging per bar?
Yes, the first hidden or reserve bar begins with the low battery charge warning and the second reserve bar begins after the very low battery charge warning. This is visualized on Tony's range chart as well. I should add that using this reserve capacity is not recommended on a daily basis, because it will affect battery longevity. The amount of degradation is likely very small and it's OK to use the reserve in emergencies or on longer trips if you needed extra range.
 
thankyouOB said:
...that would be 6.25 per bar or a range of 75 miles.
Yet my average m/kwh is 4.4.

4.4 times 20 usable kwh in the car = 88 miles.
is my maximum range with this driving style and road mix 75 or 88? ...
Here's how I would have done it. If you're really getting 4.4mpk on that drive, I'd expect to get 4.4*21 = 92 miles going all the way from 100% to turtle...4.4*17=75 miles with an 80% charge.
 
thankyouOB said:
so, are you saying that the number of bars is 12 you can see and 2 that you cant....so multiples are really 14 times whatever you are averaging per bar?

14 is a fair number. Look at the range chart; where it is at Low Battery, think of that as the 13th bar, and Very Low as 14. There are 14 rows of data on the chart to reflect this.
 
davewill said:
Here's how I would have done it. If you're really getting 4.4mpk on that drive, I'd expect to get 4.4*21 = 92 miles going all the way from 100% to turtle...4.4*17=75 miles with an 80% charge. Color me surprised, I got the same numbers.
:) Yes, of course. We are all working off of the same model (1.5kWh per bar and 14 bars of available capacity). According to this model, 80% charge would correspond to 18kWh however. I don't know about you, but I am a bit concerned about mogur's numbers. One could argue that they are unusually high and won't apply to everyone, but still. They go against the model.
 
surfingslovak said:
I'd second the request to revisit the speeds presented in the table. Perhaps it would be possible to add 65 and 75 mph down the road. I'd be willing to help in whatever way I can.
Would like to 2nd the request for a few additional data points - IMO 55 mph and 65 mph would be useful.
 
planet4ever said:
I don't like it! In fact I hate it! You are upsetting me no end.

Most of my driving is local, at speeds around 25-35 mph. Your table says I should be getting 6-7 m/kWh, but I'm not. In fact I rarely go above 3.5 m/kWh unless I get on the freeway, then I can get up around 4.3 at 60 mph.

I think you are accelerating & decelerating hard. Are you using eco and gently accelerating ( no more than 3 bubbles including the middle one) ? No hard braking ?

I do the kind of city driving you describe and rarely get below 5 m/kwh now-a-days - even with the hilly terrain. Without the large hills I easily get more than 5.5 m/kwh.
 
mogur said:
So last night I did an experiment. I charged to 100 percent, reset my average M/KwH meters, and drove the car to battery exhaustion (it's good being near the top of a hill and being able to coast back in to my garage). I ended with an average of 3.8 M/Khw (on both meters) and I drove 89.3 miles. Doing the math, that would seem to indicate I used 23.5 Kw from the pack...

Edit: I used 26.71 KwH recharging.
Not sure why this is so. Everyone else seems to be getting around 21-22 kWh. May be your battery is a little better ?
 
planet4ever said:
Even you, LEAFfan, with your incredible 9+ m/kWh, can you get more than half that at any speed -- pick your favorite -- if you have to stop six or more times per mile?
Ray

Ray, I have easily gotten more than half (6.8) on a 22 mile city trip with stops, lights, etc. Keep in mind a few things: It is relatively flat here and on that 22 mile trip there were no elevations at all. When I accelerate, I have no trouble keeping it in neutral (and not slow like that one poster) if there is no one behind me. If someone is behind me, then I only use one bubble and can get to 38 fairly fast. I can't remember the last time I used two bubbles as it is very rare. That night it was late and hardly any traffic, BUT I still got 6.8m/kW h on the dash (7.0 on the console). I did notice it is much harder to hit the 6s with A/C, but I've made it into the high 5s many times which is still more than half of my 9.1. I rarely use the freeways or interstates.
 
LEAFfan said:
planet4ever said:
Even you, LEAFfan, with your incredible 9+ m/kWh, can you get more than half that at any speed -- pick your favorite -- if you have to stop six or more times per mile?
Ray, I have easily gotten more than half (6.8) on a 22 mile city trip with stops, lights, etc. Keep in mind a few things: It is relatively flat here and on that 22 mile trip there were no elevations at all. When I accelerate, I have no trouble keeping it in neutral (and not slow like that one poster) if there is no one behind me. If someone is behind me, then I only use one bubble and can get to 38 fairly fast. I can't remember the last time I used two bubbles as it is very rare. That night it was late and hardly any traffic, BUT I still got 6.8m/kW h on the dash (7.0 on the console). I did notice it is much harder to hit the 6s with A/C, but I've made it into the high 5s many times which is still more than half of my 9.1. I rarely use the freeways or interstates.
I'm not familiar with Phoenix, but I have spent a couple of weeks in Tucson. That was an amazing place to drive, with ten mile long 35 mph straight streets that had one traffic signal per mile, and those seemed to be timed. Is that the sort of city driving you are talking about? If Phoenix is like Tucson, that's not the kind of driving I do. Remember, my challenge specified six or more stops per mile.

Now, I will confess that I accelerate more aggressively than you do, or even than evnow does. I typically have four dots (including the neutral one) as I pull away from a stop. Yes, I do use ECO all the time, and try to avoid the brake, except after I've slowed to 5 mph. Frankly I find it difficult to imagine trying to accelerate with only the one neutral dot showing. I'll try it, but my gut feel is that I won't ever get over 10 mph before slowing for the next stop.

And here is another confession. I'm a night owl, as you can see from my posts, and I'm also retired. It is usually after noon when I first leave the house, and on top of that, my car sits outside in the driveway. These days the cabin temperature is probably about 120 when I get in the car. My first step after powering up is to open the windows, but yes, I do use the AC. Afternoon temps here are running in the high 80s these days - no match for Phoenix, of course - so I do leave the AC running most of the time, set at 76 degrees.

Finally, many of my trips are less than two miles one way. And I do have quite an obstacle course leaving the house. The first block is slightly uphill (3% grade) with a stop sign at the end. The second block also ends with a stop sign. Depending on which way I go, either the third or fourth block ends in a stop sign, or the third block ends at a traffic signal that is always red. I think that's why I always see something like 2.7 to 2.9 m/kWh when I come to that third stop. If my trips were longer, those early numbers wouldn't matter much, but that can easily be a third to a quarter of my whole trip.

So perhaps my situation is extreme.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
Finally, many of my trips are less than two miles one way.
...

So perhaps my situation is extreme.
That is correct ... in th beginning mile or 2 the m/kwh will be low.

Moreover - I'd say why bother about m/kwh ? Just enjoy your driving - and use this chart only when you do trips longer than 60 miles.

Now-a-days I don't even look at # of bars or guess-o-meter range for drives less than 70 miles. Only extra thing I do is to charge to 100% instead of my usual 80%.
 
Can we stop calling them fuel bars? Fuel is what you used to put into your gasoline-powered vehicle. You don't put fuel into LEAF. It would make more sense to call them energy bars (yes, I know, energy bars are what you eat - but still, at least it makes more sense than to call them fuel bars).
 
johnr said:
Can we stop calling them fuel bars? Fuel is what you used to put into your gasoline-powered vehicle. You don't put fuel into LEAF. It would make more sense to call them energy bars (yes, I know, energy bars are what you eat - but still, at least it makes more sense than to call them fuel bars).


How about eFuel ?
 
johnr said:
Can we stop calling them fuel bars? Fuel is what you used to put into your gasoline-powered vehicle. You don't put fuel into LEAF. It would make more sense to call them energy bars (yes, I know, energy bars are what you eat - but still, at least it makes more sense than to call them fuel bars).
In any language you reuse existing terms to describe new situations. This is how language has always worked. Like horse-power or mouse ;-)
 
Well, I guess I have to admit it is possible. I just returned from a short trip running errands which I drove "LEAFfan style". Specifically, it was 2.1 miles total with 13 stops. I drove most of it, including the one block 3% grade leaving the house, with only the "neutral" dot showing. The second dot (what LEAFfan calls the first dot) came on a couple of times accidentally and I immediately backed off. I did use the second dot intentionally twice leaving stop lights when there were cars backed up behind me, but only for about five seconds each time. It's 90 degrees here today, and the car had been sitting in the driveway in the sun all day, so it was a sauna when I got in, but I ran the trip with the windows down and no A/C.

The results: To my surprise I was able to get up to 30 mph on a half mile 35 mph stretch with no stops, and I pulled up to the house with 5.3 m/kWh showing on the dash (reset before starting the trip).

Ray

P.S. It was an interesting experiment, but I don't intend to drive that way very often.
 
I thought I'd expand a bit on how to determine range with a composite trip of city and highway driving.

It's relatively easy to get on the freeway, set the cruise control on 60 mph, and there's not much more to do. Assuming the conditions meet the parameters of the chart (level, etc), you'll knock out performance that matches the chart.

If conditions do NOT match the chart, you will have to use a bit of wisdom to determine how that might affect you. Going up hill, into a headwind, very hot or cold outside, and running the heater or a/c will reduce the chart data. Unfortunately, we do not yet have a chart formula to estimate how those parameters might specifically affect range.

Other issues extant to the above parameters are "cell balancing", which seems to affect how full the battery may charge (only affects 100% charge), and is easy to determine when the 12th fuel bar quickly disappears during your trip after a 100% charge.

The other end is more troublesome. If any one cell (of the 96) is not balanced, you may loose the last 5 to 10 miles of your range. I predict we'll have a way to measure the cells to determine whether those last miles are available. For now, however, it appears that the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that you will make it, but planning a trip to the last mile is bad form anyway. If you find yourself in a situation where you need those last miles, you'll have to roll the dice a bit.

Another issue is battery degradation, which there's not going to be a measurable amount yet, but that will be an issue a year or more down the road. I think we can expect 2%-3% reduction in range per 10,000 miles. The higher value if you work the battery hard (100% charges, numerous DC quick charges, running the battery to low energy levels regularly).

City driving can only be logically derived from average miles/kWh. My typical suburban southern California, non-freeway driving is about 4.5 m/kWh, so I'll use that for most of my planning. I'll adjust that for conditions that are not normal to me, and unfortunately, it will be tough for you to judge without a little seat time in your car to determine what's normal.

So, here's the composite part of using the chart. Let's say I'm planning a 90 mile trip. 10 miles will be suburban driving to the freeway, then 70 miles of freeway at 60 mph, and finally 10 miles of heavy city stop on go on a Friday evening before a national holiday.

For the first 10 miles, I'll use 4.5m/kWh.
For the next 70 miles, 3.9
For the last 10 miles, I'll use 3.0

So, here's the relatively simple [edited] math:

Code:
10 miles / 4.5 =  2.22 kWh
70 miles / 3.9 = 17.95 kWh
10 miles / 3.0 =  3.33 kWh
           -----
90 miles total / 23.50 kWh = 3.829 kWh average


Can I make it? No, because a 3.8-ish m/kWh average will take me about 80 miles. Also, the total used of 23.50 kWh exceeds the 21-ish kWh usable battery capacity.

Could I make it?

Yes, if I slow down to 43 mph (not recommended, but instructive here) on the freeway.

Now I have:

Code:
10 miles / 4.5 =  2.22 kWh
70 miles / 5.2 = 13.46 kWh
10 miles / 3.0 =  3.33 kWh
           -----
90 miles total / 19.01 kWh = 4.73 kWh average

90 miles total now equals a 4.73 m/kWh average, or almost a 100 mile range on level ground. Yes, we can make 90 miles, with almost a 10 mile reserve. Also, 19.01 is significantly below 21 usable.

Easy money, and easy math when done correctly [edit: my original "simple" math was done incorrectly, and has now been corrected here]
 
Now that is what I call weird math. My initial gut reaction was that you were using a sort of harmonic mean, and maybe you are, though I can't seem to make the mathematical transformation at this time of night to prove it. I do know that in terms of units you are basically asserting that (a*2 + b*2 + c*2) = (a + b + c)*2 which simply isn't true.

Let's look at your original calculation, where you came up with ~3.8 m/kWh for 90 miles traveled.
Since kWh used = miles / (miles/kWh), 90/3.8 = 23.68 kWh.
Actually, the exact answer using your calculation is 90 / (348/90) = (90*2) / 348 = 22.63 kWh.

It's a good thing you fudged it, because here is the correct calculation:
Code:
10 / 4.5 =  2.22 kWh
70 / 3.9 = 17.95 kWh
10 / 3.0 =  3.33 kWh
           -----
           23.50 kWh
So, what am I bitching about? That looks pretty close, right? Let's try a different case:
Code:
40 miles at 5.2 m/kWh    40*5.2 = 208
50 miles at 3.0 m/kWh    50*3.0 = 150
By your method, 358 / 90 = 3.98 m/kWh "average"
90 / 3.98 = 22.61 kWh used

Here is the correct calculation:
Code:
40 / 5.2 =  7.69 kWh
50 / 3.0 = 16.67 kWh
That's 24.36 kWh really used, an 8% error in a possibly disastrous direction.
The true average is only 3.69 m/kWh.

Ray
 
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