Rip-Off charging stations

[surfingslovak]

perhaps we need a few more BEVs on the markets before the Chinese start flooding Wal-mart with cheap evse.

Definitely. The cheapest J1772 plug we have been able to find is going for $50 when purchased directly from the manufacturer in mainland China. They want $100 for the plug / cable assembly. At this rate, we won't see cheap retail EVSEs anytime soon. I wish it wasn't so, but it's DIY or bust ;-)

 

[hill]

Just a couple days ago, I stopped at the L.A. downtown Bank of America building, and all 4 chargers were occupied, though only ONE was charging. Total protocol cards among the 4? ... zero ANY card,so you can call to hopefully get one to move? no. I am GLAD the cheap skate EV'rs are going to finally get their just deserts ... just letting their car sit there forcing others in need to fend for their self. Boy ... so much for 'community'. btw ... none of the 4 cars charging were Volt. ALL were Leaf. Fortunately I had enough juice to make it to a Nissan dealer. (shaking head) what a disappointment.

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[DaveEV]

Total protocol cards among the 4? ... zero

Sounds like we need a card to leave on other plug-ins showing them the EV charging protocol card and it's benefits...

 

[SolarExec]

Just a couple days ago, I stopped at the L.A. downtown Bank of America building, and all 4 chargers were occupied, though only ONE was charging. Total protocol cards among the 4? ... zero ANY card,so you can call to hopefully get one to move? no. I am GLAD the cheap skate EV'rs are going to finally get their just deserts ... just letting their car sit there forcing others in need to fend for their self. Boy ... so much for 'community'. btw ... none of the 4 cars charging were Volt. ALL were Leaf. Fortunately I had enough juice to make it to a Nissan dealer. (shaking head) what a disappointment..

I hear ya! I stopped into the Whole Foods and there were two Leafs parked there (both with temporary dealer plates so cut 'em some slack since they are new at this) but only one was even plugged in. The parking spots are NOT there to show off your car or keep you from walking as far. They are there to charge. If you don't want/need to plug in then park elsewhere. (I ended up driving home on gasoline since I was just about out of electric when I arrived at the store. Grumble.)

 

[smkettner]

Just a couple days ago, I stopped at the L.A. downtown Bank of America building, and all 4 chargers were occupied, though only ONE was charging. Total protocol cards among the 4? ... zero ANY card,so you can call to hopefully get one to move? no. I am GLAD the cheap skate EV'rs are going to finally get their just deserts ... just letting their car sit there forcing others in need to fend for their self. Boy ... so much for 'community'. btw ... none of the 4 cars charging were Volt. ALL were Leaf. Fortunately I had enough juice to make it to a Nissan dealer. (shaking head) what a disappointment..

I hear ya! I stopped into the Whole Foods and there were two Leafs parked there (both with temporary dealer plates so cut 'em some slack since they are new at this) but only one was even plugged in. The parking spots are NOT there to show off your car or keep you from walking as far. They are there to charge. If you don't want/need to plug in then park elsewhere. (I ended up driving home on gasoline since I was just about out of electric when I arrived at the store. Grumble.)

This is EXACTLY why we need CA AB475 that all the warm and fuzzy share and share alike people are against. Basically charge or move elsewhere. :x

I would be tempted to double park them in and start charging but that is wrong to do also.

 

[walterbays]

Hi All! Over at the Volt site we are starting to see an increasing number of once free charging stations (especially from Charge Point) beginning to have hourly fees of $2 - $3/hour and a max of $48 or more per day! Most are in addition to the parking fee for the garage etc.

At least it gives Leaf drivers a quick and easy way to check the price If you don't see any Volts at the charging station that means the electricity costs more than gas and they're all next door at the Chevron station instead. Seriously, the ability of Volts and Prius-es to choose their fuel will tend to put a cap on the fee to charge, once there are enough charging stations that drivers have a choice.

As the once free charging stations move to paid stations I am starting to get concerned about the impact of this extremely high premium discouraging adoption.

Maybe at least when the price goes up people will get out of the habit of parking at the charging station when they don't need to charge. Later I expect we'll see a lot of "paid" charging which is free with purchase from participating merchant, just like many parking lots.

Though quick charging isn't of interest to Volt, take a look at this discussion of "demand rates" making charger installations impractical: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5852 It has some relevance to L2 charging because, for example, if you had 8 L2 stations in use, each drawing 3.6 kW to supply 3.3 kW that would be almost 29 kW which could easily bump a host business up into a much higher monthly demand charge for electricity.

 

[SolarExec]

Though quick charging isn't of interest to Volt, take a look at this discussion of "demand rates" making charger installations impractical: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5852 It has some relevance to L2 charging because, for example, if you had 8 L2 stations in use, each drawing 3.6 kW to supply 3.3 kW that would be almost 29 kW which could easily bump a host business up into a much higher monthly demand charge for electricity.

It's a very California based perspective. In most places when you increase your volume of electricity usage as a commercial customer you can get even lower prices not increases. In Houston commercial rates are about 7cents but large users can get as low as 5.5 cents. So adding charging in these customers is far less than what residential costs.

 

[walterbays]

It's a very California based perspective. In most places when you increase your volume of electricity usage as a commercial customer you can get even lower prices not increases.

It's certainly very location dependent; that's for sure. It even varies widely from utility to utility in California. True, the more kWh you use the lower your rate, but around here the kWh cost pales in comparison to the kW demand charges. It appears that Florida (http://www.eea-inc.com/rrdb/DGRegProject/States/FL.html) Pennsylvania (http://wpweb2.tepper.cmu.edu/ceic/pdfs_other/Critical_Electric_Power_Issues_in_Pennsylvania.pdf) and Wyoming (http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_cdcffef6-4686-571d-8260-91c58ea1859d.html) also have demand charges. I couldn't find a list of which states have demand charges and which do not. But I suspect I could accurately infer that in a year or two from which states have well developed L3 charging networks and large populations of EV's, and which do not.

 

[Herm]

She has nice teeth

Yeah, thats the call center in North Dakota, the call center in Mombai has a different, spicier look.. both are good.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Chargepoint is a for-****** business

Please refrain from using profanity here.

 

[TRONZ]

The fact that there is such a huge spread in prices (free to $5+ an hour) is proof that business's have no idea how to price this service. They are essentially making it up, throwing paint at the wall and waiting to see what sticks. Those that tried to connect EV charging to the price of oil (or worse) have already failed. This is an important ceiling and the competitive price will be far lower. All were missing so far is the competition. Until this happens we are all throwing paint at the wall as well.

 

[Yodrak]

From OilDepletionProtocol.org, a group pushing that the world needs to cut its dependence on oil:
A sample of items that are made from oil:
Computer chips – Ink – Paint brushes – Telephones – Insecticides – Motorcycle helmets – Clothing – Tents – Shoes – Glue – Skis – Hand lotion – CDs – Rubbing alcohol – Credit cards – Crayons – Toilet seats – House paint – Movie film – Disposable diapers – Upholstery – Garden hose – Umbrellas – Milk jugs – Bandages – Antihistamines – Nail polish – Perfume – Luggage – Ballpoint pens – Aspirin – Carpet – Toys – Pesticides

I think that by not driving gas[oline] you are reducing the oil attributable to yourself by far less than 50%.

I'm aware that oil is used to provide many things I use everyday, including transporting food to the grocery store. So we split hairs, by not driving gas, I reduce the oil attributable to me by a substantial factor, say 50%, well take 50% off my subsidies to the oil industry.

not all oil is used for transportation, some of it is used to pave roads, some of it is used to make plastic, some of it is used to make fertilizer, some of it is used to make electricity. Oil is used in almost every facet of modern life. without oil (which is the cheapest form of energy we have), the planet could not support the 8 Billion people living on it now.

 

[SolarExec]

Transportation is 2/3 of oil used. Gasoline is 2/3 of transportation. Rest is mostly diesel and jet. ftp://ftp.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/demand_text.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though what this has to do with overpriced charging stations is beyond me.

From OilDepletionProtocol.org, a group pushing that the world needs to cut its dependence on oil:
A sample of items that are made from oil:
Computer chips – Ink – Paint brushes – Telephones – Insecticides – Motorcycle helmets – Clothing – Tents – Shoes – Glue – Skis – Hand lotion – CDs – Rubbing alcohol – Credit cards – Crayons – Toilet seats – House paint – Movie film – Disposable diapers – Upholstery – Garden hose – Umbrellas – Milk jugs – Bandages – Antihistamines – Nail polish – Perfume – Luggage – Ballpoint pens – Aspirin – Carpet – Toys – Pesticides

I think that by not driving gas[oline] you are reducing the oil attributable to yourself by far less than 50%.

I'm aware that oil is used to provide many things I use everyday, including transporting food to the grocery store. So we split hairs, by not driving gas, I reduce the oil attributable to me by a substantial factor, say 50%, well take 50% off my subsidies to the oil industry.

not all oil is used for transportation, some of it is used to pave roads, some of it is used to make plastic, some of it is used to make fertilizer, some of it is used to make electricity. Oil is used in almost every facet of modern life. without oil (which is the cheapest form of energy we have), the planet could not support the 8 Billion people living on it now.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Transportation is 2/3 of oil used. Gasoline is 2/3 of transportation. Rest is mostly diesel and jet. ftp://ftp.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/demand_text.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though what this has to do with overpriced charging stations is beyond me.

Looking for ways to derive funds from the benefits of driving EVs. When EVs provide so many benefits to everyone, but the public charger model is based on a service plan (some for outrageous prices) that charges just the EV driver is going to result in less EV miles driven and less benefit to everyone.

We need a sustainable business model for public charging. It needs to have more revenue components to it than just charging the Plug In Driver, particularly for vehicles like the Plug In Prius that will get the electric only range of 13 miles or the equivalent of 1/4 gallon of gasoline. Prius need to Plug In frequently to maximize the electric benefit / gasoline displacement, but how much would a Plug In Prius driver pay for the electric equivalent of 1/4 gallon of gasoline? It's not a matter of making it home or not for the Plug In Prius, so paying 2 or more times the equivalent gas costs won't fly with most Plug In Prius drivers, they'll just save money by not plugging in and burning more gas. A sustainable public charging business model needs to make sure that doesn't happen. It needs to make sure, that if at all possible, people will want to drive on electricity instead of gas.

You can argue that a little extra charge to make it home in an EV is worth 4 or 8 times the price of charging at home or using gas if most of the trip is already subsidized by lower cost electricity from home charging. I personally can't see much past 2 times the cost of home charging, but regardless, there are also Plug In Hybrid drivers and most, I venture, won't tolerate paying musch more than the gasoine cost for the equivalent range and certainly not 2, 4 or 8 times the cost of gas when they have the option to use gas, beccause it is a Plug In Hybrid.

 

[SanDust]

The fact that there is such a huge spread in prices (free to $5+ an hour) is proof that business's have no idea how to price this service.

Obviously some of this pricing is ridiculous, but even if priced correctly you might see a large spread. Just might be different strategies. For example, a store might offer free charging as part of a marketing program while some other business might be trying to make a profit on the sale.

Regardless of the strategy the best approach would be to charge based on time. This would minimize space hogging by EVs that didn't need to charge. If you were trying to actually make a profit it would probably make sense to set the price 50% above your cost and then adjust from there depending on demand. However, it's unlikely there is a sustainable business model for public charging until the number of EVs on the road reaches a significant enough number to ensure a steady stream of customers willing to buy at a price that offers the seller a profit. That's probably out in the future quite a ways.

 

[davewill]

Regardless of the strategy the best approach would be to charge based on time. This would minimize space hogging by EVs that didn't need to charge.

I see the logic in the early going since the spaces are at a premium. It's kinda hard on LEAF owners with our wimpy 3.3kW chargers, though. If I only get 10-12 miles of range for $4, I'm probably going to pass on it, where someone who gets double or quaduple that range for the same money might go for it.

 

[slaran]

I saw one listed on a website at the local college (Pasadena City College). I drove to it from the office (about 2 blocks away) since I was on Low Battery and figure I could charge while at work. Then I saw the price and I didn't know whether I was supposed to pay for parking so I said forget it and drove back to the office. I made it back home 6 miles away just fine.

I see no reason to pay unless I absolutely have to. And they should at least post a sign about parking either being free or not.

I know they are going for the monthly membership business model (like gym membership), but I don't plan on blowing $50 a month on something I will likely not use even once or twice either. I already have a monthly cable bill, an electricity bill, an Internet service bill, etc.

 

[adric22]

I agree with what another on here said about these people simply don't know what price to charge. And just because you and I may or may not be willing to pay it doesn't mean others won't. So these companies are just going to have to experiment to see what most people will pay.

I do believe charging stations need to charge money, unless the owner of the property is going to be footing the bill. But I suspect most cases will be similar to the vending machine industry, where the property owner simply gives permission to install the machine and somebody else pays the money to install and maintain it, while also keeping the profits. Its a symbiotic relationship that helps both parties.

If anyone saw my rant about EVGO, I will point it out again. I believe that business model is doomed to failure. Nobody ever pays for a subscription to a service unless that subscription adds value. For example, netflix saves money over buying at blockbuster. Or getting a texting plan on your cell-phone saves money over paying 20 cents for each text. Being that public charging is likely something we will be using spontaneously, rather than planned for, nobody is going to spend $79 for the off-chance that they might use a public charger that month. Especially if there are other charging stations in the vicinity that will allow pay-per-use. I imagine right now EVGO needs to get a revenue stream started since there aren't that many EV's on the road yet to pay for their infrastructure. But this model will die a quick death once competitors show up.

Plug-in Hybrids will make a good portion of the plug-in vehicles on the roads in coming years. They will not pay for charging unless the cost is very reasonable. It would be a shame to lose all of those customers by having a high price that only pure EV drivers will pay, and only pay when they absolutely have to. While instead they could charge a lot less, and get a lot more usage out of the chargers by EVs and PHEVs too. And you can BET that PHEV drivers will NOT pay $79 a month subscription to a charging station company. When I was driving a regular Prius, I only spent about $20 to $40 per month in gasoline.

 

[KeiJidosha]

If anyone saw my rant about EVGO, I will point it out again. I believe that business model is doomed to failure.

Another opportunity.

WSJ - "One network that uses subscriptions, San Diego-based 350Green LLC, projects it will have 200,000 subscribers in 30 markets across the U.S. by 2015"

http://350green.com/2011/05/wall-street-journal-payment-models-for-ev-charging/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

Its very hard to sell electricity and compete with the utility company (via the plug in your garage), thats why I dont think any of these companies will make a go at it... people are just not willing to pay much of a premium for electricity, at least not enough to pay for the equipment and other business expenses.