Roll system for Quick charging with Regen Brakes

[EVDRIVER]

$2000 to install a 50KW L3 station? Does that come with a unicorn? L1 is the best bang for the very low buck in most cases as many people that commute sit at work for eight hours and have no need for L2. It is not to expensive to do this in many parking spots.

What do you think it will be cheaper 40 outlets across the parking lot and to reserve those parking spots for EVs? Or one parking spot with a $10000 quick charger when the power source is available within 100 feet. Plus this parking spot can be on the driveway next to the substation gate, where real estate cannot be that expensive. When enough EV are parked for 8 hours, the demand will be similar for 40 L1s as for one 50kW QC.

I am sorry public L1 and L2 (slow charging) do not make sense to me in the long term. They are OK for now while the number of EVs is limited.

Please note (corporate commuter) not mall shopper. You may want to inform yourself on the actual facts of what is going on in large companies right now. The statistical facts on cost, benefit, charging patterns and user behavior, SOC actually needed. A single L3 station will not service a corporate parking lot unless the company allows people to work in the parking lot. Learning about the issues that are actually happening now in companies related to employee charging may surprise you. There will also always be a need for L1 charging for those that park in employee lots for full days so in no way is this going to be obsolete. Just take Google's charge stations away and replace them with even three L3 stations and watch what happens.

 

[camasleaf]

but he states that providing several dozen L1 charging sites would in most cases, require NO ELECTRICAL SYSTEM upgrades for most businesses.

Several dozen L1s, let’s say 36 will need more than 50kW when/if all 36 are charging. I believe the design will be different from our home outlets.

Employers will run in the high demand issue in the morning when all employees get to work, but I guess that could be mitigated by using timers.

I just do not see stores and garages investing in extensive L1 and L2. On the other hand, I am willing to stop and charge for 30 minutes on a day that I need more than 70 miles (about once a week).

I bet that QC will be the future, will see. And to help fulfill my prophecy I will use QC as much as I can/need :lol: .

 

[TonyWilliams]

Several dozen L1s, let’s say 36 will need more than 50kW when/if all 36 are charging. I believe the design will be different from our home outlets.

Employers will run in the high demand issue in the morning when all employees get to work, but I guess that could be mitigated by using timers.

There are fancier ways to handle this. Let's say the employer will only pay for a 20kW draw (important in the People's Republik of Kalifornia), then those 36 outlets could be cycled on and off throughout the day to never let the total load exceed 20kW.

 

[DaveEV]

(important in the People's Republik of Kalifornia)

Come on now, no need to get all Krazy(sic). Lots of other utility companies outside of California have similar demand charges.

 

[TonyWilliams]

(important in the People's Republik of Kalifornia)

Come on now, no need to get all Krazy(sic). Lots of other utility companies outside of California have similar demand charges.

Actually, around the world. It's the norm. Typically, 30kW or 50kW threshold. California is 20kW.

 

[91040]

Both Los Angeles DWP and Pasadena Power have a 30kW threshold for the demand charge.

 

[Caracalover]

$2000 to install a 50KW L3 station? Does that come with a unicorn? L1 is the best bang for the very low buck in most cases as many people that commute sit at work for eight hours and have no need for L2. It is not to expensive to do this in many parking spots.

What do you think it will be cheaper 40 outlets across the parking lot and to reserve those parking spots for EVs? Or one parking spot with a $10000 quick charger when the power source is available within 100 feet. Plus this parking spot can be on the driveway next to the substation gate, where real estate cannot be that expensive. When enough EV are parked for 8 hours, the demand will be similar for 40 L1s as for one 50kW QC.

I am sorry public L1 and L2 (slow charging) do not make sense to me in the long term. They are OK for now while the number of EVs is limited.

I see every parking meter that has electrictiy hooked to it (In order to take a credit card) as a viable spot for L1. I see every light standard as a viable place to hook in to a L2. It is not expensive to modify these, it just needs to be done. I would rather see 40 L1's than 1 QC. Driving less is the greenest thing, and a QC just encourages waste. Nice to have if you need it, but to use it when you don't will happen when more are available. Being able to drive 60 miles to work and know you have an L1 to plug into for 8 or 9 hours will allow the long commuters to go electric, and that will be a great thing.

 

[TomT]

I have to disagree.

First, almost all of the parking meters are solar powered - so no AC to them.

Second, most street lights are either 240 or 480 (rounded off) so no possibility of L1 or L2 at all unless you have Phil's modified Panasonic EVSE.

Third, at 3.3Kw on the Leaf, L2 is just to slow for opportunity charging and limits the use of the car as compared to QC charging. My EV world only expands slightly with L2 charging but dramatically with QC charging...

I see every parking meter that has electrictiy hooked to it (In order to take a credit card) as a viable spot for L1. I see every light standard as a viable place to hook in to a L2. It is not expensive to modify these, it just needs to be done. I would rather see 40 L1's than 1 QC. Driving less is the greenest thing, and a QC just encourages waste.

 

[harryjpowell]

Why does everyone get hung up on the Utility peak charges in CA Most EV's (in time) won't be in California.... Wouldn't an EV charge station be much better with some solar roofing ($60k), a commercial gas gen ($18-25K), battery storage and bit more electrical stuff. put in say 4 of the 10K Nissan QC units and add a few L2. Then have hot dogs and a bathroom.

These stations would be able to get the best price in power and place them around 50-60 mile range from city center. Here in NC you wouldn't need many, just enough to get you from on city to another, opens up all the recreational traffic to the mountains, to the coast etc... Seems that someone should have business plan ready to build this and see what the return could be.. If there are too be millions of leafs on the road these would become hot spots...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Why does everyone get hung up on the Utility peak charges in CA Most EV's (in time) won't be in California.... Wouldn't an EV charge station be much better with some solar roofing ($60k), a commercial gas gen ($18-25K), battery storage and bit more electrical stuff. put in say 4 of the 10K Nissan QC units and add a few L2. Then have hot dogs and a bathroom.

These stations would be able to get the best price in power

What income will support your multiple $100k project? The hot dogs and bathroom charge? Or the folks who don't have quick chargers? Or the ones who won't pay more than the cost for the electricity, or better yet, it should be free or provided by the government? I'm sure the property that this is put on will be free. No taxes or Insurance. Surely, no permits that cost money.

So, 4 Nissan QC's will draw about 200kW total. You genset price just went up a tad. In Kalifornia, you won't be running a permanent genset. Even portables must be "listed". But, you're talking about places without rules like that, I'm sure. Does you gigantic genset burn fuel that costs money?

Shopping results for 200kw generator

Triton industrial diesel generator - 200 kw, 3 phase ...
$39,999.99 - Amazon.com
Baldor 200 kW Industrial Standby Towable Generator
$78,999.99 - Wayfair
Triton Industrial Diesel Generator 200 kW, 3 Phase ...
$39,999.99 - Northern Tool

Obviously, you can have any size solar you want, but $60k worth isn't going to put a tickle on 200kW power draw. And obviously, they won't work at night, so of course, you need a HUGE bunch of batteries.

How much are you going to charge for an eFuel up?

 

[Nubo]

The problem with employee charging is that it negates one of the major propositions that will allow significant number of EVs. Specifically, that EVs take advantage of excess and wasted power generation during the night. This is how you can have fleets of EVs without taxing the infrastructure or forcing construction of hugely expensive power plants.

If on-site charging becomes a common perk for employees, that paradigm goes out the window.

The vast majority of EVs should be charged at home. The focus of public charging should be to facilitate the small percentage of EVs taking longer trips.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think that EVERYTHING that will encourage a faster adoption of EVs and a lessening of our foreign oil dependence is worth investigating.

i personally feel that the amount of money we are talking about is peanuts compared to spending a half trillion to buy oil. if a widespread adoption of EVs were to cut our foreign oil bill 10% that is 5 billion PER YEAR.

how many L1 plugs can you put in for 5 Billion?? and remember EV adoption is a near permanent redistributed energy demand to something we can EASILY supply domestically.

so 5 billion this year becomes 10 billion next year and so on. we dont have to reinstall those L1 stations every year

 

[Nekota]

I find the roll charging system to be worth considering since the "electric powertrain" in the LEAF is reported by Nissan as up to 95% efficient (SAE Vehicle Electrification Feb 2011) at about 6000 RPM and 125Nm torque.

Since the motor and inverter are actively cooled, there is no worry about overheating. The rear brakes can be set allowing the front wheels to be driven. And there is another thread about AC propulsion V2G where the inverter is the charging system.

 

[derkraut]

Back to the original post.......Wouldn't the "roller charging" wear out your tires in a hurry? :?

 

[EVDRIVER]

Back to the original post.......Wouldn't the "roller charging" wear out your tires in a hurry? :?

Does it matter, it's a pointless idea in general and not worth discussing. Makes as much sense as generator fans on the front grill.

 

[Nekota]

Back to the original post.......Wouldn't the "roller charging" wear out your tires in a hurry? :?

Does it matter, it's a pointless idea in general and not worth discussing. Makes as much sense as generator fans on the front grill.

So I guess you don't use regen or ECO and prefer driving with your brakes only. When I descend on Mt. Hamilton road (CA 130) I end up with at least 2 more bars than I started with at the top.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Back to the original post.......Wouldn't the "roller charging" wear out your tires in a hurry? :?

Does it matter, it's a pointless idea in general and not worth discussing. Makes as much sense as generator fans on the front grill.

So I guess you don't use regen or ECO and prefer driving with your brakes only. When I descend on Mt. Hamilton road (CA 130) I end up with at least 2 more bars than I started with at the top.

:roll:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Back to the original post.......Wouldn't the "roller charging" wear out your tires in a hurry? :?

Well... both front tires could be removed, and a hub bolted on that would turn the front axles. No tires at all and no friction losses.

Now you just need 30kW of power to turn a shaft. If 6000 rpm is the magic number (I didn't actually look at the linked report), and our reduction drive is about 8:1, we just need to turn the axle at 750rpm.

This could be done cheaply for a home hobbyist. Check out these small motors, designed to fit in a motorcycle wheel hub:

http://www.ev-propulsion.com/motorcycle-hub-motors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or this monster!!! (it's the right speed):

30kW (40HP) DC Motor - 690RPM/1000RPM
Manufacturer: TT Electric
Part No: LAK4180BA-30kWx690RPM-EM2584

Web Price: £6,374.23 + VAT



Tony

 

[Nubo]

I find the roll charging system to be worth considering since the "electric powertrain" in the LEAF is reported by Nissan as up to 95% efficient (SAE Vehicle Electrification Feb 2011) at about 6000 RPM and 125Nm torque.

Even if that were true, a roll-charger doesn't add anything beneficial to the equation. Whatever electricity is captured through regen is still less than the energy input to the roller motors. On top of the losses attributable to regen, there will be losses converting electricity to motion by the roller motors, bearings, tire rolling resistance, etc... Why sustain all those losses and mechanical wear when you can just plug the vehicle directly into the power grid?

 

[Nekota]

I find the roll charging system to be worth considering since the "electric powertrain" in the LEAF is reported by Nissan as up to 95% efficient (SAE Vehicle Electrification Feb 2011) at about 6000 RPM and 125Nm torque.

Even if that were true, a roll-charger doesn't add anything beneficial to the equation. Whatever electricity is captured through regen is still less than the energy input to the roller motors. On top of the losses attributable to regen, there will be losses converting electricity to motion by the roller motors, bearings, tire rolling resistance, etc... Why sustain all those losses and mechanical wear when you can just plug the vehicle directly into the power grid?

The one advantage is access to a 30KW charge power already built into your vehicle for a 45 minute equivalent DC quick charge. As for wear on the tires, remember this is rubber on steel which is very similar to fan belts on pulleys, so the tire wear would be much lower than typically expected for roads. Another factor is one can resort to other sources of mechanical energy - not just electricity. For example flywheels or compressed air to store energy and there are times when the power grid will not be available. I don't think it's the best system for charging but it has possibilities and provides another way to charge the battery.