SAE combo plug/Frankenplug EV/PHEV car list

[smkettner]

Planning is great. I will count FP cars when they are available to the public.

 

[TomMoloughney]

ABG rumormill: BMW getting cold feet with i3 and i8 electric vehicle plans
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/06/12/bmw-getting-cold-feet-with-i3-and-i8-electric-vehicle-plans/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ABG just reposted comments from the Automobile post a couple weeks ago that Tony W commented on earlier on this thread. There's nothing to this 'story'. I'm trying to get BMW to officially comment on it but they seem more amused by it than they are taking it seriously. "We don't respond to every false rumor on the internet, you know this is all BS" still, I'm going to get someone there to give me an official statement to refute sooner or later, I just need to keep asking

 

[Train]

Of course they've got cold feet. It takes quite a bit of money to invest in a technology that has had little acceptance on a wide scale. Trying to determine the marketplace for cars is tough enough let alone risking hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

If less than one percent of the car buyers continue to buy electrics, more car companies are going to throw in the towel because it's throwing away money that could be used for other product development.

Only time will tell. Only a very small portion of the buying public are going to be buying Teslas and electric BMW's. Then what? Economies of scale will never emerge. They are dipping their toes as they should. Wait and see, then invest more.

I think GM is crazy like a fox in all this. They are waiting for the market to emerge, then pounce. Let Nissan do what they're doing. If the EV market dies, they take the hit. The Volt, in my opinion, is the perfect car for the emerging market. An electric for most commuters, errands, and range for that longer trip. All in one car.

Nissan will never sell 10,000 EV's per month until they sell them as a loss leader. And I mean at a substantial loss. A car that somewhat resembles their own Versa, a milquetoast hatchback, stickered at $36,000 will never sell at the projections they have set. The comparisons to cell phones, digital music and other emerging technologies are not comparable. You don't need a loan for a cell phone. This car needs to be stickered at $25,000. Tops. It doesn't matter if there's a "fast" charger on every corner. It's the sticker price (and the range). It's always been the sticker price (and the range).

I think the Volt will continue to outsell the Leaf for the simple fact that one car can do both short and long trips. One car cannot. Not without long charging times. This will all become painfully obvious in the next couple years.

Plugs are irrelevant. It's like skydiving without a parachute and worrying about dry skin. We're not talking about VCR's that used to sell for $400 and now DVD players cost $100 or less. This is a car that cost near $40,000. OK, so a magic wad is waved and chademo is the standard. We're still at the BFD stage.

 

[surfingslovak]

Only time will tell. Only a very small portion of the buying public are going to be buying Teslas and electric BMW's. Then what? Economies of scale will never emerge. They are dipping their toes as they should. Wait and see, then invest more.

I think GM is crazy like a fox in all this. They are waiting for the market to emerge, then pounce. Let Nissan do what they're doing. If the EV market dies, they take the hit. The Volt, in my opinion, is the perfect car for the emerging market. An electric for most commuters, errands, and range for that longer trip. All in one car.

Don't forget that BMW is planning to offer a range extender as well. Tom M would know the pertinent details on that, but I think that they got this part right. Don't force someone who is looking for a premium EV to haul extra weight around, but make sure that the option is there for those that wish to have a range-extended vehicle. It's early in the game, and we don't know what will happen next. What if gas prices went up significantly next year because of some unforeseen geopolitical melee?

 

[Train]

What if gas prices went up significantly next year because of some unforeseen geopolitical melee?

They would drive less. Or they would budget more for fuel and less for other things.

 

[surfingslovak]

They would drive less. Or they would budget more for fuel and less for other things.

Of course, I don't expect anyone to abandon their car just because gas prices went up. Plus, I have actually lived in places where gas was $8 a gallon. It can be done. My point was that for both used and new car buyers, fuel economy will become disproportionately more important than other criteria, including convenience. There are few alternatives to gas today. It's a finite resource, and we can't predict future geopolitical developments. Of course, it's up to the car makers to develop compelling products, market them, and help educate their customers. Additionally, I don't think that you have good reading of the situation in regards to BMW. That's all I wanted to say in response to your post.

I just looked at your post history, and you don't appear to own a Leaf and always voice negative contrarian views. What, if I may ask, are you doing here?

 

[ericsf]

Could this be the Frankenplug?

Spotted at ERL in Belmont on a VW Golf. This plug is larger than a J1772 L2 for sure but the labels still show this is a L2... what is that?

 

[grommet]

That's just a standard L2 J1772 connector... as is the Aeroviroment L2 AC EVSE it's wired to. It's been there for ages, well before the Blink was put in.

 

[Yanquetino]

Could this be the Frankenplug?

I kinda doubt it. Not unless SAE has shrunk the FrankenPlug to a smaller size. Maybe it's simply a sleeker handle from a particular EVSE manufacturer, but the same J1772 plug on the end...?

Here is the size of hole needed to accommodate a FrankenPlug, as shown in this video of the Chevy Spark EV. These are the only prototypes I am aware of that actually use that proposed “standard" --despite SAE's claim that multiple automakers have adopted it.

Yeeeow! And GM thinks this FrankenHole is somehow better than two smaller "gas cap" lids, like the Mitsubishi "i" uses? I mean, if you're going to opt for something that huge, you might as well just install a charging port lid to accommodate both J1772 and CHAdeMO like on the Leaf. IMHO.

 

[TomMoloughney]

BMW has had a couple dozen ActiveE's using the SAE Combo plug for a while now, undoubtedly testing it for the i3. Here is a picture of an ActiveE charge port with it that was taken at EVS26 in California last month. The plug can fit in the same opening currently used on the ActiveE for the J1772.
I also have a picture of a CHAdeMO connector next to the SAE plug. They really isn't that much difference in weight and size when you hold them both up at the same time. I didn't take these pictures, but I have seen and held both connectors at the same time.

 

[ericsf]

Yep... That's indeed an L2. The plastic cover around the latch makes it look bigger than the other L2 plugs. The AV "tower" charging station has been installed in Belmont for a while but it's the first time I see it in use.

 

[cwerdna]

It's been months since the last post. Have there been any significant updates?

 

[scottf200]

It's been months since the last post. Have there been any significant updates?

Nothing related that I've seen not that I'm looking specifically.

Related to DC was just Tesla announcement.

There have been several J1772 L2 Plug-In/PHEV from manufacturers, tho. Everyone is more firmly jumping on that home/work L1/L2 charging bandwagon it seems.

Seems like there may be some issue related to DC charging that could have a negative effect. Not sure with the LEAF battery issues currently that folks will be using the DC charging unless they really really have to.

 

[edatoakrun]

It's been months since the last post. Have there been any significant updates?

Nothing related that I've seen not that I'm looking specifically.

Related to DC was just Tesla announcement...

Yes, the only real news is,with Tesla's DC program getting underway, if any cars ever are built with SAE DC, there will now be two DC charging standards with established charge stations those EVs will be incapable of charging at...

 

[scottf200]

It's been months since the last post. Have there been any significant updates?

...There have been several J1772 L2 Plug-In/PHEV from manufacturers, tho. Everyone is more firmly jumping on that home/work L1/L2 charging bandwagon it seems.

That includes Nissan now.

Nissan will launch a plug-in hybrid globally in 2015, Palmer said, adding it is a vehicle not in production today, declining to elaborate.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121002/AUTO0104/210020406/1361/Nissan-exec--Leaf-sales-fall-short-of-goal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

make, model, availability date and whether combo plug is optional or standard.

Frankenplug Cast Members:
...
3. Chrysler - they don't even want to take "free" government money to develop EVs, and gave it back. Nada from them.
...
6. General Motors - Spark, Fall 2013 / Spring 2014, again, like BMW, no real specifics about DC fast charging or whether it will be equipped as standard, or optional.

Just a California CARB compliance car. Toyota has to sell 2600 Rav4s, so I suspect GM must sell a similar volume.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/chevrolet-spark-ev-will-be-made-south-korea-43108.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“The Spark EV will be sold in limited quantities in select U.S. and global markets starting in 2013 (as a 2014 model), including California,” Fox said. “We have not announced any additional markets beyond California and have not said exactly when in 2013 they will be available. More news and information will be coming as we get closer to the introduction and launch of the Spark EV.”

Re: Chrysler: From the Fiat 500e press release at http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/28/2013-fiat-500e-finally-ready-to-rock-down-to-electric-orange-ave/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I don't see ANY mention of quick charging or combo plug (nor J1772), only 240 and 120 volt charge times.

Re: GM, from http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/27/chevy-spark-ev-unveiled-priced-under-25k-with-tax-incentives/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, Frankenplug is optional on Spark EV and

Initial markets include California, Oregon, Canada, South Korea and other global markets...

 

[TonyWilliams]

make, model, availability date and whether combo plug is optional or standard.

First, a comment: During a Tesla shareholder's call, when the SAE standard was pointed out to Elon Musk, he said "Yes, the SAE have a standard. But it sucks." Which is why TM went its own way.

Frankenplug Cast Members:


1. Audi - June 3, 2012 - cancels EV plans http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076657_audi-cans-electric-a2-city-car-a1-e-tron-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. BMW - i3, Fall 2013/Early 2014 - these guys are the only ones of any of the Frankenplug consortium to have a serious EV program, that goes beyond just meeting California Air Resources Board ZEV standards.

http://www.bmw-i.com/en_ww/bmw-i3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [no specific mention of Frankenplug, but it is widely known that is their intention. Also, it doesn't mention if Frankenplug is standard or optional, but the range extender is optional.]

"The battery can be fully recharged in six hours at a standard power socket [230 volts in Europe, not our 120v]. If a high-speed charger is used an 80 per cent charge can be achieved in just one hour..... The BMW i3 Concept therefore offers an optional range extender, the REx, which allows the driving range to be increased. REx, a small, very smooth-running and quiet petrol engine, drives a generator"

Edit: report of issues from Automobile Magazine were just BS, according to inside sources at BMW"

3. Chrysler / Fiat - they don't even want to take "free" government money to develop EVs, and gave it back. Nada from them. The Fiat 500e compliance car has no mention of quick charging or combo plug (nor J1772), only 240 and 120 volt charge times.

4. Daimler - working with Tesla, which means unlikely their first EV efforts will have anything more than what the Toyota Rav4 EV has.... no DC fact charger

5. Ford - nada. Focus EV is a luke warm effort to comply with CARB.

6. General Motors - Spark, Spring 2014. Just a California CARB compliance car. Toyota has to sell 2600 Rav4s, so I suspect GM must sell a similar volume.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/chevrolet-spark-ev-will-be-made-south-korea-43108.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Frankenplug is optional on Spark EV and initial markets include California, Oregon, Canada, South Korea and other global markets.

“The Spark EV will be sold in limited quantities in select U.S. and global markets starting in 2013 (as a 2014 model), including California,” Fox said. “We have not announced any additional markets beyond California and have not said exactly when in 2013 they will be available. More news and information will be coming as we get closer to the introduction and launch of the Spark EV.”

"“The Spark EV will be produced in Changwon, South Korea, the same location as the Spark with the internal combustion engine," said GM's Randy Fox, Electric Vehicle Technology Communications."

"Actually, the Spark EV's range – along with curb weight, price, top speed, on-board charger details, and other specifications – are still not being shared, Fox said, as these are still being finalized."

"Although Fox did not say so, it’s likely the company will continue using SAE charging connections as it does with the Volt, and not CHAdeMO. He did confirm DC fast charging will be available."

7. Porsche - nada

8. Renault - tentative and tepid announcement after the other 8 announced that they are "in". No car announced to handle it, though, and they announced their own 43kW AC fast charger and support of ChadeMo.

9. Volkswagen - They have a ChadeMo Blink at their San Francisco tech center, and plan to use converted Golf's in 2013, presumably to be strictly CARB compliance cars:

"Volkswagen, a major promoter of the Combo system, plans to put EVs on the market around the world from 2013 by converting some of its Golf and other popular models.

While Volkswagen will use the Combo system as the charging system for its EVs, the company will modify relevant units to accommodate the CHAdeMo system for the Japanese market."

I would guess that the not specifically mentioned USA that will have beau coup ChadeMo's compared to perhaps zero Frankenplugs might also get those "modified / accommodated" VW cars here in the USA.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/08/2121867/automakers-aim-to-set-global-standard.html#storylink=cpy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“DC charging” refers to a charging protocol in which a charging station supplies direct current to a plug-in vehicle’s battery pack. This type of charging, which can be used to “quick charge” some compatible battery packs to 80% state-of-charge (SOC) in as little as ten to twenty minutes, contrasts with the much more common AC charging protocols, in which alternating charging current is supplied to the vehicle and is rectified to direct current by the vehicle’s on-board charger component, which then charges the battery pack.

Efforts to find consensus on a single charging standard have so far been elusive, particularly with respect to DC charging. Although the CHAdeMO DC charging standard prevails in Japan, with almost 1400 such chargers installed in that country, it is not integrated with AC charging. A CHAdeMO-complaint vehicle therefore requires a large charging door (e.g., Nissan LEAF) or two separate charging doors (e.g., Mitsubishi i-MiEV).

Volkswagen executives indicated that they had met with CHAdeMO representatives in the past to discuss a single charging standard, but were unable to come to an agreement; one executive reminisced “that was a very difficult discussion” which “quickly became political”. Although many manufacturers of plug-in vehicles, including Volkswagen, support the SAE J1772 AC-DC “combo connector” standard in the US market, as well as the somewhat similar VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 AC-DC standard in Europe, one VW executive remarked “we don’t want to discriminate” on charging standards, explaining “...the investors and the users will decide”.

 

[TonyWilliams]

"Although many manufacturers of plug-in vehicles, including Volkswagen, support the SAE J1772 AC-DC “combo connector” standard in the US market, as well as the somewhat similar VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 AC-DC standard in Europe, one VW executive remarked “we don’t want to discriminate” on charging standards, explaining “...the investors and the users will decide”."

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/01/vwelec-20130121.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not looking so good for the blow hards at GM... Seems there may be defection in the ranks.

 

[scottf200]

Volkswagen e-Up Electric Minicar: Forbidden Fruit For Europe Only
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082873_volkswagen-e-up-electric-minicar-forbidden-fruit-for-europe-only" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Volkswagen e-Up will accept the European version of the new Combined Charging System (CCS) quick-charging standard, which can recharge up to 80 percent of the battery capacity in just 30 minutes.

It also accepts conventional 230-Volt Level 2 charging. Its charging port is hidden behind the standard fuel door, meaning that to the uninitiated, the Volkswagen e-Up doesn't look much different than a conventional Up model.

 

[Reddy]

Picture at bottom shows plug:
http://www.greencarreports.com/image/100362821_volkswagen-e-up-live-photos-2011-frankfurt-auto-show