SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[GaslessInSeattle]

+1, well put!!

So what :lol: It's still not selling in the U.S., yet you cited it as a reason the U.S. should go CHAdeMO :?

Huh? I didn't. I was merely trying to mention the other vehicles w/CHAdeMO support and GM's shenanigans.

I still don't get it. Why you trolling here on MNL? You don't have one, don't seem to want one, and keep pushing for a port that doesn't exist on your Volt. It doesn't look like the Frankenplug will physically fit on your Volt either, unless a station ends up having two cords/plugs, J1772 with and w/o Frankenplug.

You're a fanboy for a "standard" that exists on 0 shipping cars and for which there are 0 publicly accessible stations. Some of its "gang" of supporters don't have very credible EV programs. I'm surprised (or not so surprised) that you haven't added any data on future cars w/Frankenplug, ship dates, projected sales volumes, etc. to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I don't think you or anyone else has answered what "problems" Frankenplug is trying to solve. If GM and the gang of 9 gave up on Frankenplug and went w/CHAdeMO, that would solve the a bunch of problems. But no.... that doesn't seem so likely since it seems like their only motives are to hurt competitors who are already shipping cars w/QC.

 

[scottf200]

Just so we are clear was there not a point in time that the L2 J1772 existed *before* cars for it were out? This question gets ignored out of convenience it seems because it doesn't match the arguments.

There were other plugs (**: AVCON,Magne Charge) before the L2 J1772 right but isn't the L2 J1772 considered a success now? I can tell you everyone I talk to about it are sure happy that it is common on the LEAF, Volt, Ford Focus EV, etc, etc. People like standards that have had input from various parts of the world *with* all the unique electrical/utility_systems/voltages/etc.

Just so we are clear why did the LEAF put in the L2 J1772 instead of working with "The Tokyo Electric Power Company" to developer their own? This question gets ignored out of convenience it seems because it doesn't match the arguments.

If the LEAF did not have the "The Tokyo Electric Power Company" CHAdeMO then I think most of you would love the fact there is a SAE standard QC/L3 J1772 combo.

Isn't the reality that there are very few CHAdeMO QC stations when you consider the big and longterm picture. These can be converted to the QC/L3 J1772 combo and various companies have planned for that in their charging stations.

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avcon#Success_of_the_conductive_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It makes sense to me that GM has learned from the past (see **) and that is why they are being very proactive with the SAE standard. So we are mad at a company that wants to learn from the past. Seems odd. All of 8+ these manufacturers just want to make sure there is a standard that meets countries world wide and not just go with what ever is currently pushed out due to time constraints.

 

[Smidge204]

Nor does it explain HOW the SAE proposal addresses/fixes all of his criticisms about CHAdeMO and QC in general (Cost, speed, utility, etc).
=Smidge=

I don't think I said it would, did I? I said I don't want to spend taxpayer money on an infrastructure that one car can use when 9 other manufacturers have said they're going a different direction.

But apparently you're okay with spending taxpayer money on something you clearly feel is useless. You argue against QC in the broadest terms yet shill for a not-yet-standard they would delay it and, if adopted, would actually result in MORE taxpayer money getting spent to retrofit/replace what has already been rolled out.

I pussyfooted around the accusation before, but now I'm just going to put it on the table: How much are you getting paid to sit around all day posting this crap? Either you're astroturfing or functionally retarded... or both I suppose.

Your particular mix of talking points could not be more disingenuous. You utterly fail to reconcile your arguments with the counter-arguments. Kindly stop wasting everyone's time. Shoo.

Just so we are clear why did the LEAF put in the L2 J1772 instead of working with "The Tokyo Electric Power Company" to developer their own? This question gets ignored out of convenience it seems because it doesn't match the arguments.

The question gets ignored because it's largely irrelevant to anyone familiar with the history of J1772. For example, Why did Nissan put a J1772-2009 port on the LEAF? The California Air Resource Board mandating it might have been a factor... but the question is still irrelevant because the adaptation of J1772 is an example of "This versus nothing" whereas Frankenplug is "This versus something that's already in production and use."
=Smidge=

 

[bryan38401]

DANandNAN is see you finally get the point(the user will get to decide,and all leaf has to do is out sell the other 8) I see you are in florida give us another 6 months and we can stop and see you nashville to jacksonville in a leaf!! now normal use of L3 is to EXTEND the daily use of our FLEETS not just one and there are many towns planning ev use on MAJOR scales and we just are not going to wait on ANYBODY any more .CHAdeMO works and is ready today as are the nissans.but lets put an end to this IF someone builds a sae car WE will install it with the CHAdeMO it is know big deal and has all ready been done we just see no need to add cost to our L3 when there are no UL listed parts for this standard as the CHAdeMO standard is UL listed this is what we will use and since this is all PRIVATE money who cares what the gov,naysayers and any other who think they are allowed to dictate what we drive ,how,when and where.this is just to simple NEC2008,UL have this under control and this is what we use.I do hope you will enjoy you second ev what ever it might be and all of use no matter what ev we have chossen should be applauded for our efforts.

 

[Pipcecil]

The J1772, while almost too late to the party (see Tesla Roadster), did in fact come out when everyone was building cars. That made it the easy standard to follow. SAE was SUPPOSED to have a Level 3 DC standard (existing or new) BEFORE the Nissan Leaf came out. SAE even said it would. But they were too slow. Now, Nissan, whom needed a DC standard for the US (because they new DC charging would allow better adoption of EVs AND it was a requirement of the EV Project via the government) had to pick something since SAE FAILED.

So, the picked a standard already in place and being used, CHAdeMO. I am almost 100% sure if SAE had their plug out, speced, and ready when they said they would for the Leaf, you would see the combo plug now on it. SAE and its current supporters of the new plug only have to blame themselves for moving too slowly. Taxpayers money and private money has already been invested in CHAdeMO in the US now. Yes we can add the new SAE plug to it, but it just waste more money when it doesn't have to (i.e. just go with CHAdeMO).

Even if the SAE plug is better (sorry I am not an engineer I don't know the comparable specs), the unscrupilous methods employed by the SAE and its affiliates to go against CHAdeMO and support SAE Combo puts a bad taste in my mouth and I refuse to support people who are babies. Like the SAE complaining CHAdeMO is not "ADA compliant" and too heavy when their plug is the same heft/size and a normal gas nozzle is worse reminds me of politicians trying to spin false lies. GM trying to force California to only install a plug with no cars and no specs when people can benefit NOW. Its all childish...whhhaaa, Bobby took my toy because I wasn't playing with it. Ugghhh, it vexes me greatly.

 

[scottf200]

Just so we are clear why did the LEAF put in the L2 J1772 instead of working with "The Tokyo Electric Power Company" to developer their own? This question gets ignored out of convenience it seems because it doesn't match the arguments.

The question gets ignored because it's largely irrelevant to anyone familiar with the history of J1772. For example, Why did Nissan put a J1772-2009 port on the LEAF? The California Air Resource Board mandating it might have been a factor... but the question is still irrelevant because the adaptation of J1772 is an example of "This versus nothing" whereas Frankenplug is "This versus something that's already in production and use." =Smidge=

So they put it on all their world wide selling cars because of 1 state in 1 country. They are selling a lot more LEAFs outside of CA (and the USA) than inside. I think the J1772-2009 was just well thought out by all interested parties so it was logically put in use.

"This versus something that's already in production and use" - that is a short sighted emotional view for such a relative limited number of cars and QC stations. If a large number EVs are the future for *decades* then it would seem the world bodies and interested parties need to use more sound and world-wide electric system technical reasoning.

Except for the emotional GM bashing, I get you guys. It just doesn't make sense from an outside "neutral" perspective. Again, I never paid much attention to GM before the Volt. I was mainly a Ford fan but own/owned other manufacturers cars too.

You folks think the masses won't be intimidated by the looks of this? We need to go beyond early adopters (see current sales). I think the SAE QC combo looks a lot friendlier. This should be just one of many considerations in thinking about having mass adoption by a large group of buyers.

 

[hill]

IT'S NOT FREE! You're charging on taxpayers dollars (unless you're at a private station but you didn't mention that). . . . . . . . . . . snip

I'm always amused at how much 'drama-energy' folks try to create regarding 'electricity on the taxpayers back' concept ... rather than the taxpayers subsidizing the oil industry. Much of the rest of the world pays $6 - $8 and up per gallon while we pay only $4. And rather than focus on this issue (which comprises over 99.99% of energy subsidies) folks STILL wana fret over the 0.001% that subsidized clean energy. Amazing.

You see ... if in fact, the EV industry only got 10% of the oil industry's subsidies, we wouldn't even have to discuss EV infrastructure, because it'd already be paid for. But far be it from me to suggest anyone not worry about straining the fleas out of the soup, while folks are still trying to swallow the whole elephant.
.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Nor does it explain HOW the SAE proposal addresses/fixes all of his criticisms about CHAdeMO and QC in general (Cost, speed, utility, etc).
=Smidge=

I don't think I said it would, did I? I said I don't want to spend taxpayer money on an infrastructure that one car can use when 9 other manufacturers have said they're going a different direction. The only reply I get to that is "the car hasn't been built yet & we were here first!" My kids, my kids classmates and even the kids at the zoo don't whine this much about being first.

Actually, GM was first, with the Magnecharger inductive charging system. I actually owned an S10EV long before the Leaf came out.

This is a bit of irony in the debate, but in a different thread ElectricVehicle posted a link to a guy who drove his EV1 across the U.S. On Day 21, quoting from http://www.kingoftheroad.net/charge_across_america/daily/day21.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and remembering the date it was written, June 1st 1998, "A major announcement was made today at the Clean Cities Conference in Washington, D.C. General Motors and Toyota announced today that they have jointly agreed to work together to further develop the MagneCharge inductive charging system. The importance of this announcement should not be underestimated. In order for electric vehicles to be successful, a standardized charging system must be adopted to allow infrastructure implementation to proceed smoothly. EV's don't need another Betamax vs. VHS or Windows vs. Macintosh war. This development between these two major players may help fend off such a disaster. Naturally, I gladly agreed to delay my arrival in Troy by one day to avoid clashing with the announcement in Washington."

So it looks like GM is getting ready to "help" again, just as they've done before.

Oh, and by the way, I never was able to drive even a mile in the S10EV. The batteries weren't available. Not the NiMH ones that GM killed by selling the patent to Cobasys, who turned right around and sued GM's former "partner" Toyota, these were PbA batteries from Panasonic, a special shape and absolutely spectacular performance.

 

[smkettner]

If the LEAF did not have the "The Tokyo Electric Power Company" CHAdeMO then I think most of you would love the fact there is a SAE standard QC/L3 J1772 combo.

No... If there was no CHAdeMO then all current LEAF & Misubishi i would not have QC. There currently is no SAE/L3 at this point. If not for CHAdeMO it would so far only be J-1772.

 

[Spies]

Actually, GM was first, with the Magnecharger inductive charging system. I actually owned an S10EV long before the Leaf came out.

I would not be so sure that SAE J1773 "Magne Charge" was before SAE J1772 "Avcon"

 

[TonyWilliams]

with "The Tokyo Electric Power Company" .... the "The Tokyo Electric Power Company"

Let me guess... This is bad, right? If we replaced TEPCO with GM, all would be well. Ok, thanks.

(what if no) CHAdeMO then I think most of you would love the fact there is a SAE standard QC/L3 J1772 combo.

Again, like every religion argument; "what if". Sure, what is we have no air? We'd all be dead. But, alas, we have air, and we have ChadeMo.

Isn't the reality that there are very few CHAdeMO QC stations when you consider the big and longterm picture. These can be converted to the QC/L3 J1772 combo and various companies have planned for that in their charging stations.

If 1400 ChadeMo chargers are "very few", what the heck is zero Frankenplug PWNC's ?

400 "very few" more we're just given away by Nissan in Europe. You need to get with Ashley ( the Euro paid consultant) and start your salary, because she calls those 1400 "niche" and zero Frankenplug PWNC's is "volume". You two are like two peas in a pod. Or a box of chocolates.

Honestly, both you and DantheMan are the only two shills we have here. Both drive the GM "stuff", and seem reasonably happy with that. Why don't you start complaining why GM's own "electric car" has no Frankenplug. When you can't find a charger, that gas engine will come in handy.

Let me be the first to tell you that there won't be a simple conversion of the ChadeMo chargers. Surely, your task masters want you to believe that, and I encourage it. Lets get those ChadeMo's in as quickly as possible, and then you can just "convert" them. No UL, no money, no permits, no nothing needed. Just convert. Easy peasy.

It makes sense to me that GM has learned from the past (see **) and that is why they are being very proactive with the SAE standard. So we are mad at a company that wants to learn from the past. Seems odd. All of 8+ these manufacturers just want to make sure there is a standard that meets countries world wide and not just go with what ever is currently pushed out due to time constraints.

Yes, of course, GM is only looking out for Nissan's and the rest of the world's best interests. It's like a community service. How quaint. How are they doing in Japan with the conversion process? Or China? Or, wait, even Europe, which is using a different standard of the standard Frankenplug ? Hmmmm. It sure is looking like a strictly regional thing, 'cuz I don't think GM is going to get everybody converted; even their Euro new "buddies".

Your 8+ Frankenplug members COMBINED will not produce more Frankenplug equipped cars than Nissan and the other ChaedeMo car manufactures before 2017, in my estimate. By then, the next generation fast charger will be on the horizon that will be neither the current ChadeMo, nor the Frankenplug.

 

[TRONZ]

The best part of all this is GM actually stood up in front of a CA assembly and declared that ONLY SAE plugs should be approved here in CA. Obviously because no SAE cars exist or will exist in number any time soon?!? Talk about a total WTF moment?!? I think this GM statement will go down as "the" epic overreach of the QC story. I mean, does GM even have a clue how blue the CA legislature is already?!? Does GM understand how even more deep royal blue CA will be going after the Nov elections??? I guess not because they shot themselves in the head on this one. But its very good that they are now officially on record with their opinion. It kinda makes perfect sense for GM though. CA sets the stage for everything that happens in the U.S. auto market. If they don't create an artificial monopoly for SAE cars that dont exist it's game over for their standard. The fact that it's IMPOSSIBLE to create a monopoly with cars that don't exist seems totally lost on GM in the first place! What would have been even better is if GM provided charts showing how much use SAE stations would get with all the LEAFs running around. GM really shocked and pissed off the wrong people in the wrong state on this one.

I am thinking this is becoming good material for another EV documentary.

 

[TonyWilliams]

really shocked and pissed off the wrong people in the wrong state on this one.

I am thinking this is becoming good material for another EV documentary.

Where is GM's fellow government bailed out (twice) Chrysler in all this? Why aren't they side by side, after a few cocktails in the Gulfstream V, yelling the horrors of a ChadeMo world?

And Ford? Like Chrysler, not even a hint that they'll use Frankenplug in anything! Why no announcement from Ford? Why aren't all three of these companies getting in their Boeing BBJ and hopping over to Japan and China to straighten them out?

When will BMW start demanding the stop of ChadeMo ?

 

[sub3marathonman]

Actually, GM was first, with the Magnecharger inductive charging system. I actually owned an S10EV long before the Leaf came out.

I would not be so sure that SAE J1773 "Magne Charge" was before SAE J1772 "Avcon"

Maybe they had the J1772 before the J1773, but GM had the EV1 with a Magnecharger deployed long before Ford's Ranger EV.

And more research irony, this time from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avcon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :

"The AVCON conductive interface was the primary competitor to the Magne Charge inductive charging paddle used by the General Motors' Saturn EV1 and Chevy S10 EV, plus the 2002 Toyota RAV4 EV. Ford and Honda chose AVCON as a more cost effective EV charging solution to transfer the same 6KW AC power to the EV's on-board charging system (208 to 240 VAC, 40 amp circuit into the charging head).

Many public EV charging installations funded by the California Air Resources Board (CARB - money came from DMV fees) had to have both an inductive and a conductive AVCON charging head. This meant twice as much money was spent because the simple, cost-effective AVCON was not adopted by all Automakers. These public EV charging installations did not use Avcon model charging heads; they used the more expensive EVII ICS-200 model AVCON charging heads."

I guess GM was involved in this fiasco of dueling charger standards too.

 

[TRONZ]

really shocked and pissed off the wrong people in the wrong state on this one.

I am thinking this is becoming good material for another EV documentary.

Where is GM's fellow government bailed out (twice) Chrysler in all this? Why aren't they side by side, after a few cocktails in the Gulfstream V, yelling the horrors of a ChadeMo world?

And Ford? Like Chrysler, not even a hint that they'll use Frankenplug in anything! Why no announcement from Ford? Why aren't all three of these companies getting in their Boeing BBJ and hopping over to Japan and China to straighten them out?

When will BMW start demanding the stop of ChadeMo ?

OR where was SAE during this Assembly meeting??? If its supposedly a technical issue about standards then why didnt a representative from the standards committee speak??? GM's anti EV agenda has now been proven by their own public statements. If GM is not careful they could be setting themselves up for a slam dunk class action suit in CA. The fact that the other SAE manufacturers are distancing themselves from the fight is telling.

 

[Smidge204]

So they put it on all their world wide selling cars because of 1 state in 1 country. They are selling a lot more LEAFs outside of CA (and the USA) than inside. I think the J1772-2009 was just well thought out by all interested parties so it was logically put in use.

I think you are vastly underestimating the clout that the CARB has over sales outside of their home state. 16 states other than CA adopt CARB guidelines as their own. National level policy is based on what they do. International policy is influenced by it. CARB turns the screws and automakers are forced to comply with their standards because more is at stake than just the California market.

"This versus something that's already in production and use" - that is a short sighted emotional view for such a relative limited number of cars and QC stations. If a large number EVs are the future for *decades* then it would seem the world bodies and interested parties need to use more sound and world-wide electric system technical reasoning.

It seems rather pragmatic to me; We have a QC standard (CHAdeMO) which is more or less adequate for the foreseeable future, and could likely be upgraded and remain backwards compatible if the need arises. Both vehicles and charging station manufacturers have adopted this standard, relevant approvals have been sorted out, and equipment rollout is in progress. CHAdeMO is shipping.

So what sense does it make to force a new standard - one that is actually LESS capable, is nowhere near finalized much less undergone trials and the requisite approvals processes, and that no manufacturer who supports has any concrete plans to even implement?

Try and spin this into "emotional GM bashing" all you want. Your position is not neutral, just nonsensical.

You folks think the masses won't be intimidated by the looks of this? We need to go beyond early adopters (see current sales). I think the SAE QC combo looks a lot friendlier. This should be just one of many considerations in thinking about having mass adoption by a large group of buyers.

Eh, the J1772 hybrid "Frankenplug" is about the same physical size. The only advantage it has over CHAdeMO in terms of end user experience is the latching mechanism is a little simpler... which itself is criticized since the single latch point isn't as strong.
=Smidge=

 

[TonyWilliams]

Eh, the J1772 hybrid "Frankenplug" is about the same physical size. The only advantage it has over CHAdeMO in terms of end user experience is the latching mechanism is a little simpler... which itself is criticized since the single latch point isn't as strong.
=Smidge=

The clunky Yazaki handle that many identify as "ChadeMo" is clunky, but not the only choice:

The Fuji handle:

Sumitomo handle:

http://evcollective.com/dc/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

with "The Tokyo Electric Power Company" .... the "The Tokyo Electric Power Company"

Let me guess... This is bad, right? If we replaced TEPCO with GM, all would be well. Ok, thanks.

The SAE and other bodies involved took into account many countries needs and electric systems.

Let me be the first to tell you that there won't be a simple conversion of the ChadeMo chargers. Surely, your task masters want you to believe that, and I encourage it. Lets get those ChadeMo's in as quickly as possible, and then you can just "convert" them. No UL, no money, no permits, no nothing needed. Just convert. Easy peasy.

The charger is the easy part. The hard part is picking the right location, location, location ... and even hard is making sure that there is adequate power at that location. I've been to live presentations on exactly this topic from companies installing these things. You just can't put those things anywhere without serious consideration of the transformers and surrounding grid infrastructure. Again the physical charger is the simple aspect of this and several of the companies stated they will build them with both or make them easily upgradeable.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The SAE and other bodies involved took into account many countries needs and electric systems.

So, ChadeMo is not compatible someplace in the world? Your arguments are going backwards!!! News flash: the charger protocol doesn't care what country the electricity comes from. That applies to ChadeMo or Frankenplug. The charger manufacturer will configure whatever protocol charger they build for the market that it will operate in.

Side note: Frankenplug has zero chance of being a world standard. ChadeMo already has their 160kW charger spec'd out and demonstrated. I recommend that if SAE/GM really want to be in the game (beyond just trying to slow down Nissan and complying with CARB) that they look to the future.

The charger is the easy part. The hard part is picking the right location, location, location ... and even hard is making sure that there is adequate power at that location. I've been to live presentations on exactly this topic from companies installing these things. You just can't put those things anywhere without serious consideration of the transformers and surrounding grid infrastructure. Again the physical charger is the simple aspect of this and several of the companies stated they will build them with both or make them easily upgradeable.

Those companies will take anybody's money, of course. It cannot be ignored that if they started today, it will be many years before a single Frankenplug is UL certified, permitted, installed and operational to the public. You do get that, right? In your GM centric world, even with every politician paid off, it's still years away?

The rest of the issues have nothing to do with a charger protocol argument, and believe it or not, I have a bit of understanding about those issues. I will take delivery of my first ChadeMo charger in about a week.

 

[TonyWilliams]

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