Safety Concerns?

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evyna

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
92
Location
Orlando, FL (UCF)
Hello!

My current car looks like it's hitting "that phase" where problems are going to crop up without warning and the whole thing becomes a money sink. ;)

So I'm considering options and have been researching the Leaf for a while. During this, I noticed that the NHTSA has a very high number of strange complaints listed for different Leaf models, ranging from brake lockups to steering malfunction to the car shutting down mid-drive.

Here's the link to search: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously, everything there is pure compliant, since that's the point of the service. But I'm somewhat concerned about the high number of abnormal problems, given the car is less popular than most on the road.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!
Evyna
 
Stoaty said:
While a few people have had problems, in general the Leaf is rock solid (had mine for 3 years, never a problem).

Was hoping to the hear that. I suppose my overall concern would be getting stuck with a bad apple, then Nissan refusing to resolve the problem.

I'm a paranoid one :s
 
evyna said:
Stoaty said:
While a few people have had problems, in general the Leaf is rock solid (had mine for 3 years, never a problem).

Was hoping to the hear that. I suppose my overall concern would be getting stuck with a bad apple, then Nissan refusing to resolve the problem.

I'm a paranoid one :s

Nothing paranoid about that concern. Nissan doesn't seem to be overly committed to solving problems.
 
TomT said:
Other than battery degradation, of course...

Stoaty said:
While a few people have had problems, in general the Leaf is rock solid (had mine for 3 years, never a problem).
That is hardly a safety concern... unless, of course, you are talking about the safety of your investment. ;)
 
evyna said:
So I'm considering options and have been researching the Leaf for a while. During this, I noticed that the NHTSA has a very high number of strange complaints listed for different Leaf models, ranging from brake lockups to steering malfunction to the car shutting down mid-drive.

Here's the link to search: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously, everything there is pure compliant, since that's the point of the service. But I'm somewhat concerned about the high number of abnormal problems, given the car is less popular than most on the road.
Haven't had a chance to look, but how do these look compared to other mass market vehicles w/similar or greater quantities? See http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01/usa-vehicle-sales-rankings-by-model-december-2013-year-end.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for sales comparisons.

The steering malfunction and and shutting down mid-drive sounds VERY rare here. I have personally no safety concerns about the Leaf. There have been some folks complaining about braking behavior that could be considered safety issues (not the brake grabbiness at low speeds). If you're that concerned, you should just lease and turn in the car at the end. I'm leasing, but not for that reason.
LeftieBiker said:
Nothing paranoid about that concern. Nissan doesn't seem to be overly committed to solving problems.
I will only partly agree. Nissan seems pretty committed to any safety issues and recalling, if they exist. The Leaf is my 3rd Nissan and my experience w/them so far has been decent to good enough that I have no qualms w/leasing or buying another.

As for your latter problem as it relates to the Leaf yeah, I partially agree. :( I will say they really did listen to feedback given to them as they implemented many suggestions of ours (many were presented to Nissan at a SF BayLEAFs meeting in December 2011) in the '13 Leaf. Not clear if they heard similar feedback via other channels, including other owner groups.
 
I realize that their dealerships are not Nissan Corporate, but nonetheless they do represent them. I'm finding it impossible to get a dealer to actually make a service appointment for me to get the two recall issues with my car addressed - one of them a safety issue. The PDM update is one thing, but the dealership who replaced the cabin filter refused to do the occupant seat sensor repair, because as a non-EV-certified dealership they wouldn't have been reimbursed. (I was never informed that they don't have the certification or a Leaf tech when I made the appointment.) My car does have a malfunctioning sensor, too: it usually shows no occupant when my housemate, an adult, is in the seat...
 
When looking at a web site like that it's a good idea to compare what they show for a few other cars, ideally cars whose track record you know. For example, years ago when I decided to replace a defective GM product with a Toyota I looked at that site and found quite a few complaints about the Camry. Then I looked up my then-current GM car and found something like 10x the complaints about it, and generally of a much more serious nature. 7 years and 120k miles later the Camry has been basically problem free except for normal maintenance.

The early LEAFs did get a lot of complaints about grabby brakes. You'll also find a number of complaints about the resistance heater, which needed to be replaced in a number of 2011 and 2012 LEAFs. The 2013 and 2014 LEAFs are built in Tennessee, not Japan, and there were a number of mechanical changes which resulted in complaints about the on-board chargers and again about the heaters, but a different problem this time. AFAIK both of those have been resolved for some time. Having said that, many people who had both a 2011 or 2012 LEAF and a 2013 or 2014 LEAF have posted on this board that the Tennessee LEAFs don't seem up to the same quality level as the Japan LEAFs - mostly minor issues.

The biggest complaint by far was the rapid battery degradation, and members of this board have done extensive research on the issue and took it up with Nissan, which provided a extra battery warranty in response. The whole sordid saga is described here:

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss

You can read for yourself but the short summary is that:
1) Under extreme heat conditions the battery degrades extremely rapidly. People in hot climates like Phoenix saw their batteries lose as much as over 1/3rd of capacity in just 2 years. People in mild climates such as Seattle are experiencing much slower rates of battery degradation.
2) Even in mild climates, however, degradation has been somewhat faster than Nissan forecast when the 2011 LEAF was first made available. 20% degradation was forecast for 5 years and it has been more like 3 years - although this varies greatly depending on the situation, as is noted at the above link.

The other issue generating a number of complaints has been cold weather range, and in general advertisements about range. In 2010 the LEAF was advertised as being a 100 mile car, and the 2011 marketing materials included that figure, although the test used to get that number was under ideal conditions. The EPA rated the 2011 LEAF at 73 mile range, which is a pretty good estimate although literally YMMV, and the range varies a lot depending on a lot of factors. The 2014 LEAF is EPA rated at 84 and that's probably a bit on the optimistic side in *most* cases, thought it is certainly possible under many conditions. However, a lot of people bought assuming 100 miles - and a few dealers still claim this figure - and so many buyers have been very disappointed. Add in the fact that range can be reduced by 50% under extreme cold conditions and a LOT of LEAF customers were posting complaints on line last winter during the cold spells.

Personally I've found both our LEAFs to be extremely reliable with minimum maintenance (basically just tires) - one of them did have the heater issue which was resolved under warranty. But do be aware of the range and degradation issues.
 
Thanks for all the replies everyone! Appreciate it.

I did do some anecdotal lookups on various cars my family had, and a '10 Sorento had about 1 compliant, whereas a '08 Altima had 300+. But just about all of the latter were about melting dashboards and other cosmetics, not necessarily safety, and '08 is older than the '10, so the data isn't really useful, I suppose.

Happy to hear that experiences have been good, though. I'll dig into it some more and do some reading. I did look at the battery degradation wiki page yesterday, and I live in Orlando, FL, so that's something I have to keep in mind, as well as seeing if anything interesting comes up with the '15 model.

Again, thanks for the all the help!
 
evyna said:
Happy to hear that experiences have been good, though. I'll dig into it some more and do some reading. I did look at the battery degradation wiki page yesterday, and I live in Orlando, FL, so that's something I have to keep in mind, as well as seeing if anything interesting comes up with the '15 model.
I would not recommend purchasing if you live in Florida (leasing is fine). Battery capacity loss has been pretty high there. Nissan claims they are testing a battery that is very heat resistant and if everything goes OK will be releasing it Real Soon Now (TM). However, we don't know whether it will actually be released, or whether we will know when the new battery chemistry is in the Leaf. Nissan has hinted that an announcement (that might include something about the "hot" battery--dubbed the Lizard Battery by members of the forum) is forthcoming in the next few weeks, probably coinciding with the introduction of the 2015 model year.

Given all of this information, if I were in the position of making a decision I would wait about a month and then re-evaluate my options.
 
I don't think safety is a concern with the LEAF. There are also many complaints by people that "perceive" an issue that does not exist and people making complaints likely to try and get out of the car for other reasons (range) and magnifying non-issues.
 
I love the Leaf and haven't had any problems. I agree in Florida (and most places) lease don't buy. I wish I'd leased. Having said no problems with the Leaf, I also never had any problems with my
'79 Pinto
'85 Escort
'92 Ranger
'98 and '02 Saturns
'02 Escort

The only car I've ever had a problem with was when the transmission went on my '00 Saturn LS with less than 20k miles.

One thing to do when/if you get a Leaf is after you are almost to done bargaining, make them throw in another $600-$1000 off for providing such horrible tires. The Bridgestone Ecopia will not last through an entire 3 year lease and maybe not even a 2 year depending on what is expected at turn in for the tires. 25k miles and needing to replace the tires badly. I'm almost to the cords on the rear tires.
 
Stoaty said:
Given all of this information, if I were in the position of making a decision I would wait about a month and then re-evaluate my options.

I won't be doing anything until September, if I do decide, so hopefully something interesting will come up in that time.

Need to run the numbers on leasing vs. buying, too. Looks like there's some good info on this forum about that
 
evyna said:
Stoaty said:
Given all of this information, if I were in the position of making a decision I would wait about a month and then re-evaluate my options.

I won't be doing anything until September, if I do decide, so hopefully something interesting will come up in that time.

Need to run the numbers on leasing vs. buying, too. Looks like there's some good info on this forum about that

The residuals seem to run about where a good used price should be, so there is little risk in leasing - you can always buy it after the lease ends, paying only what the car would go for used anyway. Another lease advantage that has appeared is that the lease can be extended if desired: Nissan will definitely do a six month extension, and it now looks like they will do multiple extensions, essentially letting you lease the car for much longer than the original agreement, maybe indefinitely, for the same payment. For those of us who made a substantial down payment to get a low monthly payment (generally a mistake, since you lose the down payment if the car is totaled), it means that we can keep paying that low amount for much longer than originally thought.
 
cwerdna said:
LeftieBiker said:
Nothing paranoid about that concern. Nissan doesn't seem to be overly committed to solving problems.
I will only partly agree. Nissan seems pretty committed to any safety issues and recalling, if they exist.
+1

I will say that my impression is that Nissan corporate management is extremely focused on safety as a priority, at least for the LEAF. They are very proud of the safety record for the LEAF to date and are quite reticent to make changes which could hurt safety in future versions. I told them that I had not heard of a single LEAF battery fire and asked if they knew of any worldwide and they said "No". That was after over 100,000 LEAFs had been sold.

There have also been some rather horrendous traffic accidents involving LEAFs in which the LEAF occupants came out very well. Does anyone know of any fatalities involving the LEAF?

As a LEAF owner, I feel the LEAF is an extremely safe vehicle to drive. Our only incident involved a deer that was hit by an oncoming driver which flew and landed about where the rear-view mirror is located. Other than a shattered windshield and my wife's frayed nerves, no other damage was done.
 
ksnogas2112 said:
One thing to do when/if you get a Leaf is after you are almost to done bargaining, make them throw in another $600-$1000 off for providing such horrible tires. The Bridgestone Ecopia will not last through an entire 3 year lease and maybe not even a 2 year depending on what is expected at turn in for the tires. 25k miles and needing to replace the tires badly. I'm almost to the cords on the rear tires.
I have to say that is a matter of opinion and individual experience and also depends on how you drive. I keep my tires at 40 PSI, the original tires are at 30,000 miles and look to have at least 10,000 miles more (and still be safe).
 
RegGuheert said:
As a LEAF owner, I feel the LEAF is an extremely safe vehicle to drive.
On further consideration, I'm going to temper this statement very slightly by saying that there is one safety-related issue that has been posted here that might become a concern. It was discussed in this post: My Leaf roll back and almost kill a kid! This problem seems to occur when the voltage of the 12V battery is low. In fact, my dealer has experienced something similar while reprogramming the brakes on our LEAF. If you combine this with the fact that the LEAF does a poor job maintaining the health of the 12V battery, there is some room for concern here as the 12V batteries age.

I keep an eye on our 12V battery to ensure we do not run into this issue.
 
RegGuheert said:
RegGuheert said:
As a LEAF owner, I feel the LEAF is an extremely safe vehicle to drive.
On further consideration, I'm going to temper this statement very slightly by saying that there is one safety-related issue that has been posted here that might become a concern. It was discussed in this post: My Leaf roll back and almost kill a kid! This problem seems to occur when the voltage of the 12V battery is low. In fact, my dealer has experienced something similar while reprogramming the brakes on our LEAF. If you combine this with the fact that the LEAF does a poor job maintaining the health of the 12V battery, there is some room for concern here as the 12V batteries age.

I keep an eye on our 12V battery to ensure we do not run into this issue.

Is that problem still relevant in the 2014 model?
 
evyna said:
Is that problem still relevant in the 2014 model?
In the sense that the Nissan LEAF is fully electric and that it depends fully on the 12V system for safely braking, yes. (Internal-combustion engine vehicles use a vacuum-assist system for their braking, but have similar braking systems otherwise). I do know that the ultracapacitor which was located in the trunk area of the 2011/2012 LEAFs was moved starting in 2013. But whether Nissan has adjusted the design to make it less sensitive to the 12V battery, I do not know. I don't recall any reports of the problem beyond MY2012. I have mentioned this issue to Nissan on a couple of occasions, but I don't know if they have taken any action.

Note that there have only been a couple of reported incidents of this issue.
 
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