San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

[garygid]

Assuming one had whole-house TOD metering:

If your on-peak usage is -400 kWh (generating extra from PV),
your off-peak usage is 100 kWh, and
your SOP usage is 300 kwh, ...

How does SDG&E calculate your bill for that month?

Does SDG&E have a Month-Bill calculator to try different tariffs?

Change the -400 to -450 kWh, and how is the bill/credit calculated?

 

[walterbays]

It looks to me like the best thing for me to do about San Diego rates is to change nothing. Keep the house on its current meter offset by PV to about zero year to year. And let them add a second meter for the car. Then clearly some rate structures are much better than others. If I get in the EV project I'll hope they give me the good rates. I expect I'll almost always charge off-peak, but I won't agonize about charging sometimes at less than optimal rates, because the worst rate at summer peak prices is still a lot cheaper than gasoline.

 

[Frank]

I was browsing around and found the SDG&E experimental TOU rate documentation...

http://www.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/2157-E-A.pdf

Nice find Randy. The pdf document you referenced with the experimental rates was very recently filed with the CPUC by SDG&E. This statement in the letter makes me feel like a lab rat :| ,

"The purpose of this experimental schedule is to better understand residential customer time-of-use charging preferences and to estimate the price elasticity of demand for PEV charging."

It also says,

"This experimental schedule shall remain in effect until November 30, 2012 (or until the completion of the study) after which the customer will be given the choice of otherwise applicable PEV rate schedules. If a customer does not make an election, they will be defaulted to Schedule EV-TOU-3."

I looked at EV-TOU-1, EV-TOU-2, and EV-TOU-3 as they are now, the rates are essentially the same among these three schedules. These are not the experimental rates, so presumably anyone that owns a Leaf in the SDG&E service area can choose one of these three schedules if they are not participating in the EV Project. These rates are on the SDG&E website at: http://www.sdge.com/documents/customer/totalrates/050109/schedule_ev.pdf

By the way, I like the medium experimental rate (EPEV-M) the best. The super off peak rate is less than a penny more than the EPEV-L, but the peak rate is a dime less. So if I needed to charge during peak on occaision it would be $.10 less per kWh to do so. I guess we now need to figure out how to influence the random assignment of these rates by SDG&E

 

[Frank]

I haven't been able to figure out what rate will be applied to the weekend in this SDG&E document http://www.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/2157-E-A.pdf
, and other related pages on the SDG&E website. It seems to be clear that Super-Off Peak is midnight to 5AM, Off-Peak is 5AM to noon and 6PM to midnight, and Peak is noon to 6PM. But what about the weekend? The time-of-use schedule I presently have (DR-SES) applies the lowest rate to the entire weekend. But I'm wondering if the Super Off Peak rate would be applied to the entire weekend because it is the lowest rate for the experimental rates? Does anyone have any info on this? It would be nice to have some SDG&E members on this forum.

 

[DaveEV]

It looks to me like the best thing for me to do about San Diego rates is to change nothing. Keep the house on its current meter offset by PV to about zero year to year. And let them add a second meter for the car. Then clearly some rate structures are much better than others. If I get in the EV project I'll hope they give me the good rates. I expect I'll almost always charge off-peak, but I won't agonize about charging sometimes at less than optimal rates, because the worst rate at summer peak prices is still a lot cheaper than gasoline.

Yep, same here.

My PV system currently produces about 80-90% of my electricity. May-Sept I build up a bit of surplus and expect to use that up in the winter.

If I'm on the lowest spread tier - the super off-peak rates are more expensive than my "baseline" rates based on bills from before I got PV.

I have 322 kWh/mo of baseline available to me and another 96 kWh at 2c/kWh more than baseline.

My usage is currently around 450 kWh/mo (varies between 400-500 kWh/mo) and I expect to drive about 25 mi/day for commuting - or about 130 kWh/mo worth.

So let's say worst case it's December when my PV system is expected to generate the least energy - about 200 kWh. Add 130 kWh to my worst case 500 kWh bill = 630 kWh. Subtract 200 kWh for PV generation and net usage for the month is around 430 kWh, or just barely into the more expensive tier which won't put the average price much higher - perhaps 14c / kWh.

So worst case scenario - it's basically the same for the low ratio.

Now if I can get the ultra low super off-peak rates it might make sense to do a separate meter - but then it will depend on how much they charge to install/service the extra meter. Since I only expect to use about 130 kWh/month on average, (~$10/mo in electricity at super-offpeak rates, far better than my current $74/mo in gas for my gas guzzler!), if there are more than $8/mo in fees it won't ever make sense to install a separate meter unless I start putting on a lot more EV miles that can be charged at super off-peak rates.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Until they figure out how the EVProject is going to affect people with PV solar, my big question will be can we buy the Blink EVSE if we decide not to participate? (I really like the Blink EVSE)

My solar generates a surplus for the year. I want to use that surplus to charge my Leaf. You can't tell me that there are tarrifs or anything else that make it 'illegal' for SDG&E to figure out how to make this work. It's MY energy that I've made, I can choose to pump it back to the grid or use it in my Leaf....I think they're posturing to make max profits now and for the future of EVs.

 

[indyflick]

I read through the tariffs. I thought originally one of them had a minimal monthly charge of $10 or so, on top of the per kWh charges. Did I remember that wrong?

 

[LEAFer]

Don't know what they charge ... but, yes, need to keep those pesky nickels&dimes in mind.
Quick back-of-the-envelope calculation:

If you drive                1000   miles/mo
and LEAF gets                  4   miles/kWh,
then you are using           250   kWh
At average                    11   cents/kWh
you are spending             2.8    cents/mile in electricity, and ...
if your EXTRA meter costs    $10    per month
you're spending another      1.0    cents/mile for the meter !
Which is an extra            36%   over the electricity cost alone !

 

[DaveEV]

I read through the tariffs. I thought originally one of them had a minimal monthly charge of $10 or so, on top of the per kWh charges. Did I remember that wrong?

I'm not sure if it's a minimum charge (IE - they will charge you at least that amount if you don't use enough electricity) or if it's added on. I'm hoping it's the former - otherwise driving 6k miles/year will make a separate meter pointless unless you use a lot of electricity.

 

[Randy]

In the existing SDG&E TOU rates, as outlined in this document, there is a charge for metering.

http://www.sdge.com/documents/customer/totalrates/050109/schedule_ev.pdf

Under the category of "Other Charges/Discounts" at the bottom of each of the 3 sections, the charge is listed. On EV-TOU-1 and EV-TOU-2, that charge is $3.81 per month. But under EV-TOU-3, the charge is $13.13 per month.

I don't believe I've seen any information about a metering charge on the new experimental rates...

 

[Frank]

In the existing SDG&E TOU rates, as outlined in this document, there is a charge for metering.

http://www.sdge.com/documents/customer/totalrates/050109/schedule_ev.pdf

Under the category of "Other Charges/Discounts" at the bottom of each of the 3 sections, the charge is listed. On EV-TOU-1 and EV-TOU-2, that charge is $3.81 per month. But under EV-TOU-3, the charge is $13.13 per month.

I don't believe I've seen any information about a metering charge on the new experimental rates...

I don't know where I saw it, but I remember that there would not be a meter charge for EV project participants. But when the EV Project ends, my guess would be that a meter charge would apply because SDG&E says that if you don't elect another rate schedule, you will be defaulted to EV-TOU-3, and that schedule has the $13.13 per month charge.

I contacted SDG&E and asked what rate would apply to the weekend. I was surprised to hear that weekends would be the same as weekdays. This isn't like the present time-of-use rate schedule that I am on where the lowest rate is applied for the entire weekend. I was hoping that Super Off Peak would apply to the weekend or at least Off Peak. The other thing I found out is that the Peak period is expanded for the experimental EV rate schedules. See below.

On-Peak: Noon - 8pm
Super Off-Peak: Midnight - 5am
Off-Peak: 8pm - Midnight and 5am - Noon

 

[LEAFer]

I read through the tariffs. I thought originally one of them had a minimal monthly charge of $10 or so, on top of the per kWh charges. Did I remember that wrong?

I'm not sure if it's a minimum charge (IE - they will charge you at least that amount if you don't use enough electricity) or if it's added on. I'm hoping it's the former - otherwise driving 6k miles/year will make a separate meter pointless unless you use a lot of electricity.

So ... based on the PDFs with EV-TOU-3 rates the lowest rate is 13.7 cents (super-offpeak); and a $13.13 meter charge. Re-running the numbers with 6k miles/year:

If you drive                 500   miles/mo
and LEAF gets                  4   miles/kWh,
then you are using           125   kWh
At average                  13.7   cents/kWh
you are spending             3.4    cents/mile in electricity, and ...
if your EXTRA meter costs $13.13    per month
you're spending another      2.6    cents/mile for the meter !
Which is an extra            77%   over the electricity cost alone !

 

[DaveEV]

Yep, if a separate meter is required - unless you can get and use super off-peak rates that are substantially under 14c/kWh, IMO you are way better off buying a PV system that offsets all your electricity from driving and even better to offset all your electricity consumption over 130% of baseline.

The PV system will pay for itself in 6-8 years at which point any electricity it generates is free!

For example, under Schedule D (what 99% of residents are on), here are the summer rates:

Baseline: 13.4c/kWh
101%-130%: 15.5c/kWh
131%-200%: 28.2c/kWh
201%+: 30.2c/kWh

Winter rates are 2c/kWh cheaper for the top 2 tiers.

Now - if you can't get a PV system and EV charging will put you into the 131%+ category - it's a bit more complicated to figure out the best solution - but it primarily depends on how much electricity you expect to use to charge your car.

The EV-TOU-3 (dual meter adapter) has an insane metering charge compared to the other 2 rates ($13.13 vs $3.81) - but then installing a completely separate meter is probably not going to be cheap, either.

 

[Bob4017]

You are correct that EV-TOU-3 is on the website. We have been notified by the local municipal electrical inspectors that the device previously used for this rate, a dual meter adapter, no longer meets their stringent requirements. This device is made by a company other then SDG&E.

In terms of Nissan, if You are part of TheEvProject.com then you will given a second meter installation that will bill you in the same way as part of the project.

If You are not part of that project, EV-TOU (0) is still an option for you as is EV-TOU-2. Both of which I can help you anticipate costs for.

If you have further questions please let me know and I will help you

Just to let you all know. I received this e-mail from SDG&E, and the second meter adapter for charging an EV is no longer available. I really wanted to do this, but I will have to make other plans. :|

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around SDG&E rate plans.

I was, for a brief while, on ToU metering with solar panels. That was a miserable disaster. The bill was incomprehensible, and the rates were nothing like what I could find in the Schedule PDF. Even though I was generating in the day and using most electricity at night, my overall cost was higher. I think -- the net metering didn't agree with the monthly.

Compared to SDG&E ToU billing, my Verizon bill is as simple as a traffic sign.

It seems like it *should* be beneficial to switch back to ToU metering, since the PV would be generating during daylight when rates are highest, and the Leaf would be charging after midnight. I just can't tell. The standard domestic rate plan is hard to beat, since the Solar keeps it within Baseline most of the year.

I have an SDG&E digital (3 rate period) meter made by GE. They explained that the "smart" meters aren't ready for PV installations yet, because the iTron meters can not run backwards. (!)

 

[Frank]

I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around SDG&E rate plans.

I was, for a brief while, on ToU metering with solar panels. That was a miserable disaster. The bill was incomprehensible, and the rates were nothing like what I could find in the Schedule PDF. Even though I was generating in the day and using most electricity at night, my overall cost was higher. I think -- the net metering didn't agree with the monthly.

Compared to SDG&E ToU billing, my Verizon bill is as simple as a traffic sign.

It seems like it *should* be beneficial to switch back to ToU metering, since the PV would be generating during daylight when rates are highest, and the Leaf would be charging after midnight. I just can't tell. The standard domestic rate plan is hard to beat, since the Solar keeps it within Baseline most of the year.

I have an SDG&E digital (3 rate period) meter made by GE. They explained that the "smart" meters aren't ready for PV installations yet, because the iTron meters can not run backwards. (!)

For the first three years I had a standard DR schedule tiered rate schedule. At the end of the net-metering year my bill (on average) was between $200 - $300. I switched to a TOU plan (DR-SES) three months ago. During the past three months my PV system has generated a $190 credit. But this of course is during the summer months and that is when you get the most benefit with this rate schedule. The six month summer period is when you can get the most credits because the difference between peak and off peak is 10 cents per kWh. For the Winter six month period the difference between the peak and off peak rate is only 1 cent per kWh. And because the kWhs generated during the Winter period is lower than the Summer period, it will most likely mean that I will be purchasing some kWhs. I calculated that at the end of the 12 month net metering period I should break even, or have a little credit. If I'm correct that will be better than a $200-$300 bill.

 

[sdbonez]

Until they figure out how the EVProject is going to affect people with PV solar, my big question will be can we buy the Blink EVSE if we decide not to participate? (I really like the Blink EVSE)

My solar generates a surplus for the year. I want to use that surplus to charge my Leaf. You can't tell me that there are tarrifs or anything else that make it 'illegal' for SDG&E to figure out how to make this work. It's MY energy that I've made, I can choose to pump it back to the grid or use it in my Leaf....I think they're posturing to make max profits now and for the future of EVs.

Hi guys - new here/just found my way here via searching for this very piece...lots of great info. I'm an early reserver in San Diego w/ EVProject-accepted status, audit complete, car ordered, and a 7.2kw PV system on my roof... larger because I planned for an EV (and extra capacity) a little on down the road. So I'm in the exact same boat w/my surplus.

Has anyone tried chasing this info w/ECOtality more recently?

 

[wsbca]

Hi guys - new here/just found my way here via searching for this very piece...lots of great info. I'm an early reserver in San Diego w/ EVProject-accepted status, audit complete, car ordered, and a 7.2kw PV system on my roof... larger because I planned for an EV (and extra capacity) a little on down the road. So I'm in the exact same boat w/my surplus.

Has anyone tried chasing this info w/ECOtality more recently?

To participate in the Project (in San Diego), you will have to use a separate meter, and one of the experimental EV rate schedules. You will not be able to use your surplus to directly offset that usage. If you get lucky enough to be on one of the large-spread experimental rates (6-7c KwH super-off-peak), your bill for the car charging might come close to being offset by the AB920 mandated payment for your excess production, but you will have to manage that transaction yourself (pay for the car charging, then request the AB920 payment at true-up time). If you get stuck with a low-spread experimental rate (15c even at off-peak) you're going to get mildly screwed (but you will still get your free charger and Level 3 port) because you're not going to get anywhere near 15c for your excess production during the project period if SDG&E's proposed AB920 methodology makes its way through the CPUC. The experimental rates are randomly assigned, you cannot choose.

I'm in the same boat as you, albeit with a smaller PV system (3KW AC - we still hope to completely offset our house usage plus the car). I have had a couple of lengthy discussions with SDG&E about this - there is no specific accommodation in the EV Project study for those of us with PV. Even though our overall charging habits would provide data to the Project as a whole, we are constrained by the San Diego implementation which ties the 1000 free chargers directly to the SDG&E experimental rate structure. Our behavior will obviously be distorted by the structure (for example, if you get stuck in the low-spread rate, you will be sorely tempted to charge on your PV-bolstered house account at level 1 as much as possible rather than plugging in to the EVSE), but apparently that's still behavior they want to learn about - it won't show up in the electronically collected data (except as a strangely low level of usage on the EVSE), but they will supposedly glean something from the interview part of the project. I got the distinct impression that they think PV users are a tiny, tiny minority of candidate Leaf owners, and I'm not at all sure that is true. Not to mention - what happens during the 2 year period, as (hopefully) more and more people install solar, so they can charge their cars with clean power? I'd hate to think that the 1000 Leaf early adopters are going to be explicitly discouraged from going solar (as the CSI keeps dropping), but I think that's exactly what is going to happen once people figure out that the Project is not designed with solar in mind.

I've been told that when the Project is over, we will be able to go back to whatever rate structure makes the most sense, at "no cost". For us that will probably mean removing the second meter and going back to plain vanilla net metering on schedule DR, under which, if our system is sized correctly, we'll basically net to zero each year and only have to pay the 17c/day connectivity charges. We might be able to use TOU to ensure that our bill is zero if we end up being slightly undersized on our system, but exclusive of that scenario, AB920 only applies if you actually make more raw KwH than you use, so it will probably be a wash - higher priced peak TOU generation credits offsetting lower priced off-peak usage can't actually make you any money.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Wow, that's a lot of info wsbca.

Is this all finalized, or still in flux? I was hoping to keep my DR rate plan. Are you saying that EV Project mandates otherwise?
I'm struggling to match up the tarriff sheets
http://www.sdge.com/regulatory/elec_residential.shtml
with what I actually see on my bill.

For example, look at DR-SES and see that ALL the rates are 100% identical for on/off/semi-peak. What the hell? That can't be right.

I see there is a DR-TOU-2 (for EV), and DR-TOU-3 (for EV with dual-meter).
Separately, there's a DR-TOU-DER, DR-TOU, and DR-SES.

I was briefly on DR-TOU, and SDG&E themselves told me it was a really bad idea, and no PV owner stays on it.

I can't see how they're going to do dual-meter, where you control the output of both. Someone dishonest could easily move loads between the meters.

The idea of three dissimilar rate plans, chosen at random -- that just sounds... unamerican. Amiright? I'd be bitter if I drew the short stick.


But here's the big thing: standard DR is hard to beat. You get baseline power at about $0.04 any time of the day. Even 130% baseline is $0.06, and anyone with PV is probably within that bracket.

The "low ratio" EPEV-L power starts at $0.13! That's super off-peak. You'd be insane to pay that, in the middle of the night. And during the day you get whacked for $0.27. Yow. I'd sooner start the generator. The only way I can see this making any sense if you regularly overproduced at $0.27 with PV and extracted it back at night at $0.13, but I'd want to be darn sure I'm running a surplus. Those are scary rates, and it seems like annual net metering could leave you with a whopper of a surprise.

 

[sdbonez]

Hi guys - new here/just found my way here via searching for this very piece...lots of great info. I'm an early reserver in San Diego w/ EVProject-accepted status, audit complete, car ordered, and a 7.2kw PV system on my roof... larger because I planned for an EV (and extra capacity) a little on down the road. So I'm in the exact same boat w/my surplus.

Has anyone tried chasing this info w/ECOtality more recently?

To participate in the Project (in San Diego), you will have to use a separate meter, and one of the experimental EV rate schedules. You will not be able to use your surplus to directly offset that usage. If you get lucky enough to be on one of the large-spread experimental rates (6-7c KwH super-off-peak), your bill for the car charging might come close to being offset by the AB920 mandated payment for your excess production, but you will have to manage that transaction yourself (pay for the car charging, then request the AB920 payment at true-up time). If you get stuck with a low-spread experimental rate (15c even at off-peak) you're going to get mildly screwed (but you will still get your free charger and Level 3 port) because you're not going to get anywhere near 15c for your excess production during the project period if SDG&E's proposed AB920 methodology makes its way through the CPUC. The experimental rates are randomly assigned, you cannot choose.

I'm in the same boat as you, albeit with a smaller PV system (3KW AC - we still hope to completely offset our house usage plus the car). I have had a couple of lengthy discussions with SDG&E about this - there is no specific accommodation in the EV Project study for those of us with PV. Even though our overall charging habits would provide data to the Project as a whole, we are constrained by the San Diego implementation which ties the 1000 free chargers directly to the SDG&E experimental rate structure. Our behavior will obviously be distorted by the structure (for example, if you get stuck in the low-spread rate, you will be sorely tempted to charge on your PV-bolstered house account at level 1 as much as possible rather than plugging in to the EVSE), but apparently that's still behavior they want to learn about - it won't show up in the electronically collected data (except as a strangely low level of usage on the EVSE), but they will supposedly glean something from the interview part of the project. I got the distinct impression that they think PV users are a tiny, tiny minority of candidate Leaf owners, and I'm not at all sure that is true. Not to mention - what happens during the 2 year period, as (hopefully) more and more people install solar, so they can charge their cars with clean power? I'd hate to think that the 1000 Leaf early adopters are going to be explicitly discouraged from going solar (as the CSI keeps dropping), but I think that's exactly what is going to happen once people figure out that the Project is not designed with solar in mind.

I've been told that when the Project is over, we will be able to go back to whatever rate structure makes the most sense, at "no cost". For us that will probably mean removing the second meter and going back to plain vanilla net metering on schedule DR, under which, if our system is sized correctly, we'll basically net to zero each year and only have to pay the 17c/day connectivity charges. We might be able to use TOU to ensure that our bill is zero if we end up being slightly undersized on our system, but exclusive of that scenario, AB920 only applies if you actually make more raw KwH than you use, so it will probably be a wash - higher priced peak TOU generation credits offsetting lower priced off-peak usage can't actually make you any money.

Thanks, Wade - after literally about 4 hours of research last night after posting, I came to this same conclusion - on all fronts. The only other bits I found were the potential monthly charge on the second meter after the 2 year period and the fact that in my particular case, I know my employer will end up with chargers... haven't seen what the cost for charging during the day will be but if they subsidize/run it off their solar/etc., the irony is that I might be more likely to charge at work during the day then at home. The bottom line benefit that makes me look the other way is exactly what you note. The free charger, level 3 port, AND earlier delivery, it seems, easily outweigh any mild screwing I'm gonna get on the rates...I'd be buying these options anyways.

Groundloop - remember that these early/free chargers are part of a study. You're giving away data via your wi-fi AP from the charger (and a bit of privacy) in exchange for the charger/port. The meter piece is also a good question just from a space consideration perspective. Meters always seem to mean problems for some reason. Example: Up here in San Marcos, everyone in my neighborhood has smart meters except for me. They had to leave the old one because the smart meters aren't smart enough to go backwards yet...