Seriously considering a 2013 Model S - What Should I Know?

[arnis]

That hybrid heater and PTC heater thing continues, same thing on 2016 and 2017 Leafs.


Around view monitor crams all camera data onto the display VERTICALLY. Also it doesn't work
in dark as there are no lights on the left/right of the vehicle.
One actually reasonable view is the right front wheel curb view for parking near curbs. But it is
extremely easy to see the curb on the rear camera and additional view is not as useful as it seems.

I've tried surround view on 2014 Leaf and on 2016 Leaf (with slightly bigger screen) - no difference.
Details are just way too small on that small screen. In addition, cameras are always never clean.
Demonstration how it usually looks like on surround view while sitting straight in the drivers seat:

I know it's cool to have so many cameras and it might be more useful if blending was better, LCD was
larger and view could be more adjustable according to situation. But it is not. And I also noticed that
picture quality is worse, in addition to being extremely small (smartphone screen size for 360 view).

I actually specifically tried to park and maneuver in tight places using cameras alone (cleaned them and
did the test in good lighting conditions). It's worse. Looking out of windscreen and outside mirrors (if
adjusted correctly) helps more. But the rear camera is extremely helpful with no parking sensors.
I'm very good at maneuvering vehicle but rearview camera still helps as the rear window is not very good.

 

[powersurge]

Anyone who says that the 6.6 charger is a waste of money cant be serious.

Maybe YOU drive only a few miles per day and have no problem plugging into 120v all night. Don't be so egocentric.

The 6.6 charger, for people who drive in several directions daily, is what makes the Leaf a useful vehicle. I can drive 70 miles in the day for work, come home in the afternoon, plug in, and drive another 70 miles during the evening. I then come home at midnight-1am, plug in, and am ready at 100% in the morning.

Also, I can plug into all the FREE charging stations in the US for 2 hours for a full charge. What person with a 3.3 will go to a mall and shop for 8 hours to charge their car????

For the price that you may pay for a used Leaf with the QC and 6.6 charger, you will have many more interested customers in the car if you sell it. Personally, I WOULD NOT, in my wildest dreams, buy a 3.3 Leaf. Its like buying a car with no doors.

Your statement is a bit misleading and a great number of LEAF sales are 3.3 models and suit the needs of those drivers. Your habits and needs do not reflect the general population of all drivers. I'm also curious how you get a full charge on a LEAF in two hours, that math does not add up even in a 24Kwh pack at a 208 or 240VV public station.

I am glad that got I you riled up. I know that a ton of people have the 3.3kw charger in their cars. I am sure that it may work for them, and that the 3.3 may have been the only one available when they bought their Leaf. Just Like--- In a few years, I will not complain that I have a 24kw battery, when no one will want to buy my car if they can get a 60kw car....

Today is today, and if there are used Leafs with the 6.6, it does not make sense to buy one with the 3.3 charger unless the price is right and fills your needs. Also, like it said, having a 6.6 will future-proof the utility of your car a bit more.

PS - Regarding charging my car. I can recharge my car in about 2 hours with my L2 charger (30amp). I usually charge the car when it is at about 35-40% battery charge. My charger is able to charge at the rate of 30-35% per hour... So in 2 hours, I can charge from 30-35% to 100% charge...

 

[VitaminJ]

People still buy cars without AC and with drum brakes so there will always be a market for 3.3 Leafs for that type of person. My grandma bought a new Lexus in 1998 and she still complains to this day that the CD player was $400 wasted and they didn't have any cars without CD players! What a waste of money!

Personally, I have had my Leaf for exactly 2 months today and I have put over 5000 miles on it in that time. That simply would not have been possible with only 3.3kw charging.

I should add that the 6.6kw charger is right on the point where the car can charge at the same rate or slightly faster than it drains when using the car. CHAdeMO is clearly way over that line. That's an important distinction because battery powered devices have only really taken off in a huge way now that they can run for much longer than it takes to charge them in the first place. Think about the old RC cars that would drive for 5 to 10 minutes but would take 12 hours or more to charge. Or old cell phones that took hours to charge, but you could only talk on them for 30-45 minutes before the battery died. That's not really useful. If you can, however, charge your phone in 30 minutes and then talk on it for several hours straight, that's much more useful. CHAdeMO is that, but for the Leaf.

 

[jjeff]

PS - Regarding charging my car. I can recharge my car in about 2 hours with my L2 charger (30amp). I usually charge the car when it is at about 35-40% battery charge. My charger is able to charge at the rate of 30-35% per hour... So in 2 hours, I can charge from 30-35% to 100% charge...

Yes thats the numbers I like to use, with a 24kwh Leaf I get ~30%/hr charging rate @ ~30a L2
~20% @ 20a L2
~15%/hr @ 15a L2(a 3.6kw Leaf charger maxes out at 16a as do many cheaper Chinese L2 EVSEs)
~12%/hr @ 12a L2
Etc, you get the idea. At L2 the % gained/hr is approximately your amperage input.
L1 is ~ 1/2 those numbers so the factory L1 EVSE is ~6%/hr or as people around here like to say, ~5%/hr(it draws ~12a)
A 30kwh Leaf will be lower %'s gained/hr, I'd expect ~25% less(of the % number) than a 24kwh Leaf, so at maximum charge with a 30a EVSE expect ~25%/hr. Also voltage of the L2 can vary, 208v commercial power is ~10% slower than most single family home's 240v L2.

 

[arnis]

OK. I'll just add that 6.6kWh is very rare for the rest of the world as getting 32A on one phase is pretty much not going to happen at regular households. Tesla knew that and has 3-phase charger.

32A J1772 is not as common as ChaDeMo, especially if all dual plug options are excluded.

I find it not acceptable to wait for "only few hours". Tesla people know to say that charging at 10kW is still not fast enough to even consider waiting. 16kW appears to be the minimum. And that is actually the average rate car discharges on highways. Not 6kW.

If you are not waiting you don't care will it take 2 hours or 3½ hours. You are not waiting.... You either sleep, or work or just rest at home.
Like I said, with DC or ICE availability faster AC charging is redundant. If it was almost free, of course. But it is not. Unreasonably expensive option.

 

[VitaminJ]

And that is actually the average rate car discharges on highways. Not 6kW.

Yes but highway travel is usually less than 100% of the journey. My commute is mixed roads and takes roughly 1 hour, I use roughly 7kwh during that one hour. Like I said 6.6kw is "on the edge" of charging at the same rate or slightly faster than you can use it.

 

[arnis]

EVs consume more on highway than low speed city.
Even if there is 50% city 50% highway majority of the energy is used
on highway. Something like 2/3.
7kWh of energy per hour is extremely slow+ideal conditions.
All these "ideal" things should not be considered when buying an EV.
Cold winter day. This is when more energy is needed.

 

[VitaminJ]

Lol, nuance is lost on you.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm also curious how you get a full charge on a LEAF in two hours, that math does not add up even in a 24Kwh pack at a 208 or 240VV public station.

2 hours to totally full on a '13+ 6.x kW OBC car doesn't happen unless SoC is up pretty high already (e.g. 80% or higher) since there's the taper then bounce phase. But, before the tapering period, 2 hours puts quite a bit of juice into the battery.

FWIW, on Friday morning, I plugged in at work in the morning on our 208 volt L2 EVSEs (so my charge rate's usually between 5.7 kW and ~6.1 kW) at 23% SoC per dash display. I unplugged to move my car to another area resulting in a session that was 1 hour 39 minutes. Dash display read 79%. In that time, 9.656 kWh was dispensed. (If our input voltage at work were 240 volts, my Leaf would have pulled more juice from the "wall".)

The few 3.x kW OBC Leafs that remain at my work that I've plugged in (at least the '11 and '12 ones) seem to pull about 3.7 to 3.8 kW from the wall.

I still disagree w/most of arnis' bashing of AVM. No damn way I'd EVER trade AVM for rear-view only camera on a Leaf. All of what's displayed on the screen is plenty large. The only time that visibility is a problem is if there's water on the cameras.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I can see Arnis' problem: he has to park in a cube-like space with light-colored walls and ceiling that make it hard to see where vertical meets horizontal. That would be a challenge for me as well, but most of the time the AVM works fine.

 

[Evoforce]

See... I use my vehicles the same way arnis does apparently. I refuse to charge L2 when I am out and about. Generally, I just don't have the time to waste.

The 3.3 chargers work for charging while we are sleeping, but out in the wild, I will seek out free QC chargers that are available or a Blink @ $6.99 per charge. I refuse to use EVgo because of their high price.

Even if I had the 6.6 charger, I would not want to wait on that either. Now If I had the 6.6, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be helpful in rare occasions, because L2 stations are everywhere and I have been in the situation where QC stations are out of order and I need just enough juice to limp to the next QC station.

So, I wouldn't reject 6.6, but I am a QC guy in the wild when running short on electrons.

Obviously, the environment that we Leaf in shapes our attitude about how we charge.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
But, from your sig and your post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23599&p=487982#p487982, you never had a Leaf with a 6.6 kW OBC, since it was never available on '11 and '12 Leafs. If you had experienced a vehicle with it, your thoughts might be different.

For me, Blink is also a ripoff at 59 cents/kWh for members to DC FC. This is more expensive than fueling my Prius. (If I only got 40 mpg and gas were $4/gal, it'd be 10 cents a mile. If I achieved 4 miles/kWh, at Blink's cost it'd be 14.75 cents/mile.)

Their equipment is also notorious for being broken and not repaired promptly. Evgo is a ripoff ($4.95 to start a session + 20 cents/minute), as well.

There are virtually no free CHAdeMO chargers in SF Bay Area. All 3 free ones I used before became non-free long ago.

If you include areas I actually visit/might pass by, I ONLY see 1 at a Kia dealer which has a terrible 1.0 score on Plugshare. Last report on 2/24/17 was that it's broken. I spotted a few other supposed free ones in the Bay Area, but either I don't go there or they're highly likely wrong about being free to the general public (e.g. one at Facebook HQ). It looks like even the one at Nissan's research office in Sunnyvale is gone (as I'd heard about).

If I still had a Leaf w/CHAdeMO and depended on free DC FCs now, the port would get even LESS usage than the amount I used it before. It truly would be a waste of $1K to $1.5K extra for such a vehicle to get basically 0 usage of the inlet. As I said, Blink and Evgo are a ripoff here, much more $ than to fuel my Prius.

In terms of kWh, almost ALL my charging is on free 30 amp L2 EVSEs at work. A small percentage is on free 30 amp L2 EVSEs about 5 miles from home. I used those on Friday night and twice on Saturday night. I generally only use those on Fridays, weekends or possibly on days off. A very tiny % is on 120 volt L1 at home.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I do lots of 20 minute stops at free L-2 charging stations, especially in Winter, when they often make the difference between an easy trip and a nail-biter. Today I plan to visit my Sister again: about 45-50 miles of secondary roads, mainly, but in sub-20F temps. The 20 minute stop I make at a grocery chain should make the above difference, once again. Getting 1% charge added every two minutes is only excruciating if you're sitting in the car, waiting. I'm picking up some groceries (and lottery tickets for my next lease!) while it happens. I'm one of the few people waiting in the checkout line NOT fuming about the delays. ;-)

 

[Evoforce]

cwerdna

Yes, I wouldn't reject 6.6. The 2012 test vehicle with 3.3 that we drove did not have QC. It was limiting without QC and only 3.3. For me, it made it a shorter commuter vehicle.

However, as long as your commute is within the range of an 8 bar car or you have L2 charging ability at work for the half trip @ 8 hours, than it isn't nearly as limiting. Again, this is with my mentality of spending as little time as possible without having a free L2 at a destination away from home, where the car can sit for hours without it being an inconvenience.

If I had no choice because free QC was non-existent or extremely inconvenient, I would for sure want 6.6. I am happy that in my area, I do not have to face what you do. I hope that cheap or free QC will spread across the planet.

I do wish for more in my area too. It seems like the only company actively putting QC stations up now is Evgo. As you said, they are a ripoff!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have 3.3kW charger and drive 20 000 miles per year. All I need is 4-5 hours of DC charging per year.
Absolutely no need for 6.6kW charger if you can charge at 30-45kW rate.
As far as I've heard, A LOT OF EV owners in US are extremely happy on Level1, which is 3x slower than on
normal 3,3kW charger.

6.6kW charger would eliminate about 5% of my DC needs and would reduce my ICE car usage from 1000 miles
per year to maybe 800 miles per year.

Like I said, I drive 20 000 miles per year.

I can buy 3160kWh at DC station with the money I would waste on 6.6kW charger.
This is 18500km in terms of mileage , or 11 thousand miles. And DC is still much faster than 6.6kW EVSE.

well I guess we don't have a choice because the two options (along with the backup camera) are all part of the same package.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I could be wrong, but I believe the DCQC port and 6 kW charger were an optional package deal on S trim in 2013 so you either had the 3.3 kW charger only or the 6 kW charger and DCQC (at least in USA). Although the 3.3 kW charger was adequate on my 2011, the 6 kW charger on my 2015 allows for fairly quick charges at home on weekends if I need to run extra errands.

you are not and the package includes the backup camera as well

 

[Dooglas]

I refuse to charge L2 when I am out and about. Generally, I just don't have the time to waste.

I presume you use your vehicle the same way others do. That is to say, you frequently drive to a personal, professional, or business appointment. If an L2 charging station were available, why would you not want to use it? And a 6.6 kw charger means twice the benefit. There is no reason to intentionally avoid increased capability.

 

[cwerdna]

OK. I'll just add that 6.6kWh is very rare for the rest of the world as getting 32A on one phase is pretty much not going to happen at regular households. Tesla knew that and has 3-phase charger.

32A J1772 is not as common as ChaDeMo, especially if all dual plug options are excluded.

OP and myself, along w/most people here on MNL are in the US. Almost all public L2 charging here is 30 amp 208/240 volts (so 6.2 kW to 7.2 kW max, depending on car's OBC and supply voltage). I suspect that's the case for most L2 workplace charging, as well. And, yes some will be using CT4000s with power sharing (http://insideevs.com/chargepoint-introduces-ct4000-series-charger-with-unique-power-sharing-option/) where they decided to only install a single 40 amp feed instead of one for each handle. And yes, there are probably still some Blinks w/defective Rema handles where their output's been turned down: http://insideevs.com/under-threat-from-oems-ecotality-turns-down-the-output-on-chargers-to-avoid-failures/.

CHAdeMO is FAR rarer in the SF Bay Area than 30+ amp J1772. In terms of handles, it has to be at least 1, maybe 2 orders of magnitude. If you don't believe me, to go https://www.plugshare.com/ and put in Campbell, CA. Then go to More Options and only check CHAdeMO DC FC. Then compare to only EV Plug (J1772). Try scrolling northwest along the Peninsula (e.g. San Mateo, Redwood City, etc.) until you reach San Francisco.

Try making the same comparison w/Raleigh, NC, where the OP is.

My work alone has over 85 J1772 handles and 0 DC FCs. All of them have their own 40 amp feed, so each handle can do 30 amps max.

The free public L2 charging I use 5 miles from home is also 30 amp J1772 probably at 208 volts (common commercial voltage and judging by some of the Leaf Spy screens). There are 8 handles and again 0 DC FCs.

Almost everyone who is installing L2 at home, if they have the electrical capacity and an OBC that's over 3.8 kW will be installing a 30 or 32 amp EVSE.

faster AC charging is redundant. If it was almost free, of course. But it is not. Unreasonably expensive option.

As has been pointed on, the '13 thru '15, S trim is the only trim that comes w/3.x kW OBC. To add the CHAdeMO inlet on that trim, you need to add the "charge package" which adds both CHAdeMO inlet AND 6.6 kW OBC.

See specs tab of http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2013-nissan-leaf-press-kit.

'13 thru '15 SV and SL include the 6.6 kW OBC by default. CHAdeMO inlet is optional on the '13 thru '15 SV via quick charge + LED package. It comes with the SL.

For me, the CHAdeMO inlet was the "Unreasonably expensive option". I've lived with it for 2 years, seen free DC FCs go away, seen Ecotality go bankrupt, seen CCGI's horrific financials (they bought Ecotality's carcass) to not have much optimism that DC FC pricing will get much better to the point where it's competitive w/fueling my Prius.

The only two major DC FC providers in my area are Blink (Ecotality carcass that CCGI bought) and Evgo. As I said, both are expensive and not competitive w/fueling my Prius.

Re: CCGI, see quarterly numbers at https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ccgi/financials?ltr=1. At least they're doing better. Latest quarter, they had $755K in revenue but lost over $2.4 million to generate that. To spend over $3.1 million to produce only $755K revenue isn't a real good business model. Their previous years have been as bad or much worse.

 

[Evoforce]

I refuse to charge L2 when I am out and about. Generally, I just don't have the time to waste.

I presume you use your vehicle the same way others do. That is to say, you frequently drive to a personal, professional, or business appointment. If an L2 charging station were available, why would you not want to use it? And a 6.6 kw charger means twice the benefit. There is no reason to intentionally avoid increased capability.

Yes, I have used L2 a few times when it is provided at my commercial destination but that is a rare occasion where one is available. My comment previously quoted was meant to refer to commercial locations.

If I worked a set destination every day like many do, it would be great to have one provided at work during the work day. I think this is where Chargepoint shines.

We have 120/240 charge cords that we carry in both cars along with every adapter that you can think of for charging anywhere.

Sure, I use L2 at home or one of my properties, but going from point A to B to C etc. I cannot be slowed down with L2 charging when on the fly whether it is 3.3 or 6.6.