Tesla Powerwall

[TonyWilliams]

...I do believe that Elon is on a mission here - not just to make money. ...

If so, a mission likely doomed to failure, IMO

Considering how consistently negative you have been about Tesla, and your track record of being wrong, I don't put a lot of faith in your opinion :roll:

Ed has been on my blocked list for years now. Every once in a while, I see his words quoted and I just have to be thankful I don't read 99% of what he posts!!!

 

[Slow1]

...
I have no idea what the cost of such a design would be but I have no doubt it is technically possible.

There are a huge # of concepts that are technically possible but completely impractical.
Did you miss that a single 10 kWh Power wall module weighs 200 pounds?
Automated robotic lifting devices in our garage that add or remove modules from our Tesla S :?: :lol:

Why lift/lower anything? How about something that slides into the back of the car and simply 'stays' back when the car is pulled forward? There are many ways to solve a problem - but even if the battery load/unload were solved at whatever price point is deemed acceptable, would there be a market for it? I'm highly doubtful that there is - but it sure would be a fun problem to solve.

 

[Zythryn]

...

Ed has been on my blocked list for years now. Every once in a while, I see his words quoted and I just have to be thankful I don't read 99% of what he posts!!!

I may be a glutton for punishment, however, I find it fascinating how long some people are consistently wrong

 

[mbender]

Maybe they're as wrong just as long as they are short, if that can be parsed. ;-)

...

Ed has been on my blocked list for years now. Every once in a while, I see his words quoted and I just have to be thankful I don't read 99% of what he posts!!!

I may be a glutton for punishment, however, I find it fascinating how long some people are consistently wrong

 

[bradbissell]

Personally, I can't wait to get the 10kw battery and hook it up to my SolarEdge inverter. 350-400DC in 240AC out. Seems like it should be an easy integration in my pv system and cheaper overall compared to a generator in the New England area. Now I'm really glad I didn't go with the Enphase micro inverters.

 

[RegGuheert]

Personally, I can't wait to get the 10kw battery and hook it up to my SolarEdge inverter. 350-400DC in 240AC out. Seems like it should be an easy integration in my pv system and cheaper overall compared to a generator in the New England area. Now I'm really glad I didn't go with the Enphase micro inverters.

I'm quite sure that you will not be able to use your existing SolarEdge inverter with the Tesla battery since it does not have the features required to disconnect the grid and still power the house. Instead, you will likely need to purchase an upgraded inverter to work with your existing strings. The good news is that SolarEdge *is* providing a solution, so you will be able to take advantage of all of the installation already on your roof:

Designed to manage both functions with just one SolarEdge DC optimized inverter, the solution will allow for outdoor installation and will include remote monitoring and troubleshooting to keep operations and maintenance costs low. The solution will also support upgrading existing SolarEdge systems with the storage solution.

It appears that the upgraded inverter will be available after the PowerWalls are supposed to start shipping:

The SolarEdge solution is expected to be available by the end of 2015.

 

[AndyH]

http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2015_04_30...e_missing_from_teslas_stationary_storage_news

For sure, Tesla’s new systems will be used for backup power. They’ll also be used to lower customer bills through arbitrage against rates (such as demand charges) and demand response programs, as many other energy storage companies currently do. But without even knowing additional detail about the product itself, I can safely say that Tesla’s new product will able to do much, much more for multiple stakeholder groups including customers, utilities, and independent system operators (ISOs) / regional transmission organizations (RTOs).

In fact, when products like Tesla’s are installed behind the customer meter and networked with hundreds or thousands of other similar systems, storage is capable of providing about a dozen services to the electricity system at large. Furthermore, in many cases, it costs less for aggregated behind-the-meter storage to provide these services than what we pay for them to be delivered now in other ways.

The services energy storage can deliver when installed behind the meter like Tesla’s planned products fall into three categories: 1) services for customers, 2) services for ISOs / RTOs, and 3) services for utilities.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Personally, I can't wait to get the 10kw battery and hook it up to my SolarEdge inverter. 350-400DC in 240AC out. Seems like it should be an easy integration in my pv system and cheaper overall compared to a generator in the New England area. Now I'm really glad I didn't go with the Enphase micro inverters.

Does the SolarEdge work autonomously without grid power?

 

[Valdemar]

Personally, I can't wait to get the 10kw battery and hook it up to my SolarEdge inverter. 350-400DC in 240AC out. Seems like it should be an easy integration in my pv system and cheaper overall compared to a generator in the New England area. Now I'm really glad I didn't go with the Enphase micro inverters.

Does the SolarEdge work autonomously without grid power?

It is a grid-tied inverter, so I don't think so. But it may take just a firmware update to change it, dunno.

 

[TimLee]

Why lift/lower anything? How about something that slides into the back of the car and simply 'stays' back when the car is pulled forward? There are many ways to solve a problem - but even if the battery load/unload were solved at whatever price point is deemed acceptable, would there be a market for it? I'm highly doubtful that there is - but it sure would be a fun problem to solve.

Yes, conceptually if the garage were deep enough and the Tesla S is backed in there could be a rack at the back of the garage that battery modules could slide back into for storage.
Height has to be above the required vehicle ground clearance, and can't be too high or it impacts trunk storage space.
But most garages are not that deep.
Technically feasible, but not very practical.

But I agree with your statement that I don't think there would be any demand for vehicle partial battery capacity removal.

Could be demand for vehicle to grid power transfer.
And that could be more cost effective than buying separate Powerwall battery storage.
But even though Nissan considered it after the disaster, they don't seem to think there is much potential in it at this point in time.
Might be with a higher capacity gen 2 LEAF battery.

But Tesla seems to be more interested in selling additional batteries through Powerwall sales, than providing a rational vehicle to home or vehicle to grid solution.

 

[RegGuheert]

It is a grid-tied inverter, so I don't think so. But it may take just a firmware update to change it, dunno.

As I said up-thread, that is not going to happen. It has no allowances for a battery and it does not have separate connections for the grid and your house. You will need a new inverter.

 

[Valdemar]

It is a grid-tied inverter, so I don't think so. But it may take just a firmware update to change it, dunno.

As I said up-thread, that is not going to happen. It has no allowances for a battery and it does not have separate connections for the grid and your house. You will need a new inverter.

I have no plans to buy the battery, but I will speculate they might be able to design an add-on device which will have the missing pieces, with the serial addressable communication protocol over DC wires already in place it sounds totally doable. So you might not need to buy a complete new inverter after all.

 

[Slow1]

Could be demand for vehicle to grid power transfer.

I am doubtful of this.
Vehicle to home (as backup power) maybe, but I expect that the costs of the total solution is likely to not be competitive with other options such as generators.
VtoG to help load-balance? As good as it could potentially be for the entire community, the costs and hassle factor is likely to impede adoption to the point of making it impractical due to the "using the vehicle" discussions above.

And that could be more cost effective than buying separate Powerwall battery storage.
But even though Nissan considered it after the disaster, they don't seem to think there is much potential in it at this point in time.
Might be with a higher capacity gen 2 LEAF battery.

So you think the reason the Nissan solution failed to gain acceptance is primarily due to battery capacity?

But Tesla seems to be more interested in selling additional batteries through Powerwall sales, than providing a rational vehicle to home or vehicle to grid solution.

hmm... perhaps they are learning from Nissan's lessons without making the same mistake?

Doubtless Tesla desires to sell batteries (have to use that giga-volume somewhere eh?). Question is whether there is a market for their solution. I suspect that there is in locations with very high deltas in TOU rates, particularly if these areas experience frequent short duration power failures. Costs of full solution seems to still be too high to mainstream off-grid PV systems, but maybe in time they expect cost of batteries to fall and/or grid-connection costs to rise sufficiently to build that market? Hard to know...

 

[EVDRIVER]

Personally, I can't wait to get the 10kw battery and hook it up to my SolarEdge inverter. 350-400DC in 240AC out. Seems like it should be an easy integration in my pv system and cheaper overall compared to a generator in the New England area. Now I'm really glad I didn't go with the Enphase micro inverters.

Does the SolarEdge work autonomously without grid power?

It is a grid-tied inverter, so I don't think so. But it may take just a firmware update to change it, dunno.

If not it's not going to take the place of a generator. I think many people with Solar think this will be an instant battery back up system.

 

[RegGuheert]

If not it's not going to take the place of a generator. I think many people with Solar think this will be an instant battery back up system.

I think it will be when SolarEdge releases their compatible inverter toward the end of this year. But with a 2kW limit per PowerWall, you'll need to install over $10,000 worth of PowerWall, plus the inverter plus the additional safety equipment required just to match the outage capability of my $4200 generator (which includes an inverter). So the Tesla generator-replacement solution is over 3X the cost of the backup solution I have for my PV-powered home. Still, the Tesla/SolarEdge solution should appeal to many people.

The cost of that solution will come down steadily over time.

 

[Valdemar]

I wish they also offered a 5kWh portable battery with a built-in inverter, I would consider it as a rubber-band measure for extending the range over a new battery pack from Nissan when time comes.

 

[evnow]

I think it will be when SolarEdge releases their compatible inverter toward the end of this year. But with a 2kW limit per PowerWall, you'll need to install over $10,000 worth of PowerWall, plus the inverter plus the additional safety equipment required just to match the outage capability of my $4200 generator (which includes an inverter). So the Tesla generator-replacement solution is over 3X the cost of the backup solution I have for my PV-powered home. Still, the Tesla/SolarEdge solution should appeal to many people.

The cost of that solution will come down steadily over time.

It is not just a question of power. If the electricity is out for a couple of days (like it happens every year for us) - how do I recharge the pack.

Then, there are problems like - should I keep the pack 100% charged all the time for that 3 times a year power out ?

This is where I like Vehicle-to-Home solution. It is a perfect solution - esp. for someone who might have a Tesla 85 kWh battery sitting around (in the car). That will last us like 3 or 4 days and in any case we can drive out to recharge.

 

[RegGuheert]

It is not just a question of power. If the electricity is out for a couple of days (like it happens every year for us) - how do I recharge the pack.

The SolarEdge inverter allows PV panels to be connected.

Then, there are problems like - should I keep the pack 100% charged all the time for that 3 times a year power out ?

It's interesting: They specify the PowerWall for 10KWh if used in float (backup) service and 7kWh if used for daily cycling. It seems they are O.K. with providing the 10-year warranty even if you keep it charged to whatever SOC would provide 10kWh. (Or they are willing to allow 7KWh daily cycles for the same 10 years.)

This is where I like Vehicle-to-Home solution. It is a perfect solution - esp. for someone who might have a Tesla 85 kWh battery sitting around (in the car). That will last us like 3 or 4 days and in any case we can drive out to recharge.

I'm in full agreement. When we have an outage here, there are a couple of stages to our response:

1) If it is daytime when the outage starts, there is very little to do other than limit toilet flushes and other uses of water. (We have a well with a 43-gallon pressure tank. That's a cheap battery for storing water pressure! You can buy them as large as 120 gallons and they can be connected in parallel.)
2) If it is nighttime, we have emergency lights (from Costco) that come on and everyone gets their own LED flashlight.
3) After a couple of hours, the LEAF is pressed into service. I connect a 1000W inverter, put the LEAF in READY mode and plug in our refrigerators and deep freeze. If it is cold outside, I also plug in our wood pellet stove and fire that up.
4) After 12 hours or so, it is then time to charge the LEAF. That is the point at which I drag out the generator and plug it into the house. I run that for several hours to charge the LEAF battery, run the well pump and the heat-pump water heater to allow showers. Then it can be turned off until we need it again.

It's a bit fiddly, but outages don't tend to happen often or last too long around here. The point is that the energy stored in the LEAF battery really comes in handy during an outage.

 

[TimLee]

Good plan Reg.
I need to get me a 1000W inverter and a generator.

But Chattanooga Electric Power Board has some of the most reliable power in the world since they added the 12,000 Intellirupters funded by the stimulus $.
Only time power is off for significant time is a disaster like the blizzard or the massive wave of tornadoes.
Even with the tornadoes even though I had to avoid fallen high voltage lines driving home, the power was back on at my house in less than eight hours.

A LEAF and a natural gas or propane generator would be a good solution for those times.

 

[lorenfb]

Some are capitalizing on the Powerwall no-cost reservation as was done on the Apple watch
reservation, i.e. reselling the reservation on eBay;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-Solar-Powerwall-Battery-Storage-/281684151967?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4195af0e9f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have to love Tesla, though, to announce something to divert attention from its key issue at the moment,
i.e. deliveries of the Model X. That "vapor product" should have been a Solar City announcement.