The 62kWh Battery Topic

[tziegler]

Did you find the lease prices competitive? We purchased in the end because the Lease prices were not very good.

They gave me a pretty good lease deal. No money down and they gave me way more on the trade in of my 2015 Leaf than I expected. They also reduced the cost by applying the federal tax credit. My monthly payment is under $300 and I get free oil changes. The sales guy didn't know much about the car and when he kept on mentioning the free car washes and lifetime oil changes, I gently corrected him.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Ok, I measured the ground clearance of the S+ vs. the SV+. The S+ is about a 1/2 inch lower than the SV+. I tried measuring the tire diameter, and I do believe that the 16" tires have a slightly shorter diameter. I am guessing that created the majority of the ride height difference. I do think it would be interesting to try a 15" narrow tire on the car to see if you could further tweak up the efficiency. Certainly lowering the car helps significantly at highway speeds as well.

One annoyance, is that they put door guards on the car. As the car is intended for my kids to drive, I am inclined to leave them for now, but I hate the way they look, and imagine that they are not a positive for wind resistance at speed.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Ok, I measured the ground clearance of the S+ vs. the SV+. The S+ is about a 1/2 inch lower than the SV+. I tried measuring the tire diameter, and I do believe that the 16" tires have a slightly shorter diameter. I am guessing that created the majority of the ride height difference. I do think it would be interesting to try a 15" narrow tire on the car to see if you could further tweak up the efficiency. Certainly lowering the car helps significantly at highway speeds as well.

One annoyance, is that they put door guards on the car. As the car is intended for my kids to drive, I am inclined to leave them for now, but I hate the way they look, and imagine that they are not a positive for wind resistance at speed.

Well, you didn't have to do all that. LEAF specs state the S is slightly shorter. I "think" its due to heavier weight and taller shocks or springs or "something"

So one told me that and I don't remember if it was their "hunch" or their "facts" (usually the former is has the most truth in it :lol: )

I do think I recall that I might have read somewhere that there is like a 4 or 7? difference in rotations per mile. It could have been less. I only remember thinking it wasn't a lot

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I am going to try to do a longer test in the next week, but I do contend that the S+ is measurably more efficient than the SV+. Weight, wheels, whatever.

Its funny how our family has split. My son and I prefer the more efficient wheels, where my wife and daughter prefer to drive the more "Luxury" SV+.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I am going to try to do a longer test in the next week, but I do contend that the S+ is measurably more efficient than the SV+. Weight, wheels, whatever.

Its funny how our family has split. My son and I prefer the more efficient wheels, where my wife and daughter prefer to drive the more "Luxury" SV+.

Did you see the Niro/LEAF drive and compare?

https://driving.ca/kia/niro-ev/reviews/comparison/ev-comparison-2020-nissan-leaf-plus-vs-kia-niro-ev?fbclid=IwAR0q5MkNIWJKbwVfCgJFfT2dlfcXye_rY6gI-XPMVnBzpgorsrgzSjaXpac

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I have sat in the Niro at the autoshow, but there are no Niro EV's in the midwest for sale or supported. I found the driver seating not quite as nice, but that was in a stationary car...so guess it doesn't completely count.

You can technically buy one from the coast and drive it back...but the local Kia dealships have told me flat out, that they won't service them. I had wanted actually to look at a Niro EV, calling the dealer here every month in late 2018 and early 2019...but gave up in March, when I ordered the Leaf Plus. But yes, I would have liked to consider the Niro as an option. We did test drive a Bolt, and a couple years back my wife test drove a Tesla (and didn't like it). Cargo is very similar to the Leaf (just with a flat floor to the gate) and no rear hump for when we jam 5 in the car. Kona EV would have been too small, though I like the general look of the car (also not available here). I couldn't justify the eTron, but you can get those in our area.

I am surprised that it looks like the Niro even may not come to the midwest until late 2021 or even 2022 now. I have found no literature showing that Niro is coming from the coasts inward.

We were very happy with our 2013 Leaf, so really have no regrets so far with the car. The SOH mysteries are more for my geeky side. Watching my wife drive the car, it well meets any of her needs (or mine) and has so far even met any of our longer trip needs from Chicago (Indy, Iowa, Door County, Milwaukee, etc..) without thermal or Chademo problems. I would like to drive the car to either Baltimore or Pueblo, but that won't likely happen this year.

Sadly the $250 EVGO credit is not very valuable to me, because with No Charge to Charge, I had most EvGO stations to use for free already.

 

[jlsoaz]

I have sat in the Niro at the autoshow, but there are no Niro EV's in the midwest for sale or supported.
[...]
I am surprised that it looks like the Niro even may not come to the midwest until late 2021 or even 2022 now. I have found no literature showing that Niro is coming from the coasts inward.
[...]

This jibes with what I have found. I have spoken both to Kia and Hyundai dealers in my area (near Tucson, Arizona). I don't remember the exact answer of the Kia dealer, but it was not encouraging. For the HYundai dealer they said (kind of a wild guess) maybe 2022 before I could buy a Kona EV from them. It also appears this shutout is for now statewide, so I have further set aside the idea of bringing one of those vehicles in from out of state. Why do that if I can't get it serviced?

Turning from the competition to the Leaf itself, I did notice these very glowing claims about how the Leaf Plus battery has improved and now handles the heat and resists degradation so much better than it used to. I remain skeptical, but am thinking it's time I tried to come here to the forum and see what others say, or have experienced.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/431194/2020-nissan-leaf-plus-review/

 

[cwerdna]

Turning from the competition to the Leaf itself, I did notice these very glowing claims about how the Leaf Plus battery has improved and now handles the heat and resists degradation so much better than it used to. I remain skeptical, but am thinking it's time I tried to come here to the forum and see what others say, or have experienced.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/431194/2020-nissan-leaf-plus-review/

I made a comment about that "reviewer" at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=24964&p=585953&hilit=neutral#p585953.

He is about the only person who makes such glowing claims about batteries and this isn't the first time. Notice that (AFAIK), Nissan corporate has not made such claims about either their 40 or 62 kWh Leaf batteries...

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Nissan and Tesla now have equivalent battery warranties now. 8 years and at least 70% capacity remaining.

 

[jlsoaz]

Turning from the competition to the Leaf itself, I did notice these very glowing claims about how the Leaf Plus battery has improved and now handles the heat and resists degradation so much better than it used to. I remain skeptical, but am thinking it's time I tried to come here to the forum and see what others say, or have experienced.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/431194/2020-nissan-leaf-plus-review/

I made a comment about that "reviewer" at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=24964&p=585953&hilit=neutral#p585953.

He is about the only person who makes such glowing claims about batteries and this isn't the first time. Notice that (AFAIK), Nissan corporate has not made such claims about either their 40 or 62 kWh Leaf batteries...

Thanks, good to know.

 

[LeftieBiker]

In theory, the higher thermal mass and greater capacity of the 62kwh pack should allow it to tolerate heat better, by heating less. The question remains, though: what happens in sustained high ambient temperatures when the pack doesn't get a chance to cool?

 

[jlsoaz]

In theory, the higher thermal mass and greater capacity of the 62kwh pack should allow it to tolerate heat better, by heating less. The question remains, though: what happens in sustained high ambient temperatures when the pack doesn't get a chance to cool?

It's heartening to read the accumulating stories of customer satisfaction in the colder climates. It's been almost a decade now that the Leaf has been out and this is good.

With that said, it does not address the question of what the empirical data says as to what degree Nissan addressed this for the hotter climates. Given the severity of the problem that came up in the early years, and even a year or two ago the discussions of rapidgate, I think it is necessary to go beyond the armchair speculations as to which physical principles will have which results and what is necessary here is to see robust empirical evidence (such as PIA collected around 2012 and beyond) of what the drivers are finding, for better or worse, both as to frequency of charging and as to long-term degradation.

This information, if we're able to find it, will also be of use to Mexican drivers who are increasingly facing a question of whether they want to buy a Leaf.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Good point, and you are right that the data is just anecdotal so far. The data from Geotabs and other places is still too early in the life of these batteries to make any conclusions. I think it will be 2-3 more years until we can make any determination about even the 2018 40 batteries in terms of life and degradation. The BMS no longer moves linear like the earlier cars, as it appears to be managing buffer more actively. I believe this is why we can't find any 2018 batteries which have lost a bar yet.

My anecdotal is that my Wife drives an SV+ (~9K miles). We have had the car for about 13 months. The car GOM in the summer sits with a GOM of 250, and an average of about 4.7 miles/kWh. She uses AC heavily, but rarely does more than 15 miles on the highway at a stretch.

My (and my kids car) is an S+ (also 2019 1K miles). Car is a month old, after sitting on the lot for 9+ months. I/we use the AC very lightly, and average 5.2-5.33 between highway and local driving in summer (so local driving is upper 5's, Freeway is mid 4s) and the GOM still sits slightly above 300 miles with full charge with current driving style. We will see what winter brings. The battery is only 4 months newer on this car than the other. ...but even with the lot aged battery, I know this is car is still in a bit of the goldilocks period with the car range/gom.

Let's see how the next few years go with the car. Our 2013 lost 1 bar after over 5 years charging to 100% almost every night after the first year (thinking it didn't matter when they dropped the 80% feature), so hoping we will do the same or better this time with keeping the cars generally between 30-70%.

 

[jlsoaz]

Good point, and you are right that the data is just anecdotal so far. The data from Geotabs and other places is still too early in the life of these batteries to make any conclusions. I think it will be 2-3 more years until we can make any determination about even the 2018 40 batteries in terms of life and degradation. The BMS no longer moves linear like the earlier cars, as it appears to be managing buffer more actively. I believe this is why we can't find any 2018 batteries which have lost a bar yet.

My anecdotal is that my Wife drives an SV+ (~9K miles). We have had the car for about 13 months. The car GOM in the summer sits with a GOM of 250, and an average of about 4.7 miles/kWh. She uses AC heavily, but rarely does more than 15 miles on the highway at a stretch.

My (and my kids car) is an S+ (also 2019 1K miles). Car is a month old, after sitting on the lot for 9+ months. I/we use the AC very lightly, and average 5.2-5.33 between highway and local driving in summer (so local driving is upper 5's, Freeway is mid 4s) and the GOM still sits slightly above 300 miles with full charge with current driving style. We will see what winter brings. The battery is only 4 months newer on this car than the other. ...but even with the lot aged battery, I know this is car is still in a bit of the goldilocks period with the car range/gom.

Let's see how the next few years go with the car. Our 2013 lost 1 bar after over 5 years charging to 100% almost every night after the first year (thinking it didn't matter when they dropped the 80% feature), so hoping we will do the same or better this time with keeping the cars generally between 30-70%.

Thanks, all good to know, though what is really needed is to throw that in with a central focus and contrast to vehicles in the heart of the desert heat, and see how they are holding up.

Revisiting the PIA effort for a moment, I don't see in this list any Leafs listed past a build year of 2018, or above 40 kWh, and a certain amount of slowdown before then, so maybe in some way the effort has been reduced for this model? Or perhaps they have a separate data set for the Leaf Plus?

https://survey.pluginamerica.org/leaf/vehicles.php?order=built

I think I've seen the geotabs effort, but not recently. I'm going to take a look to see if it has information pertaining to the desert southwest.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

The pia site looks out of date. For example, they haven't added 2020 yet to the list of years for battery checks.

 

[cwerdna]

Revisiting the PIA effort for a moment, I don't see in this list any Leafs listed past a build year of 2018, or above 40 kWh, and a certain amount of slowdown before then, so maybe in some way the effort has been reduced for this model? Or perhaps they have a separate data set for the Leaf Plus?

https://survey.pluginamerica.org/leaf/vehicles.php?order=built

I totally forgot about or didn't even know about that. :shock: So... I don't think I ever reported my (24 kWh Leaf) numbers.

I suspect the majority of MNL users don't know about it along with most of the users on the Leaf FB groups I'm on.

 

[jlsoaz]

The pia site looks out of date. For example, they haven't added 2020 yet to the list of years for battery checks.

In 2013-2015 or so, it was vitally important to the discussion, helping put an end to the nonsense of anyone trying to say there wasn't an issue. They did a good and credible job with it. Looking at the Tesla surveys, it does appear after 2018 they may have stopped the surveys, I don't know. Maybe they decided there wasn't as much point.

 

[jlsoaz]

It's perhaps worth adding that it takes time and ability for one ore more people to conduct a credible survey of the sort that PIA conducted.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I am not critiquing the effort. It is great they are gathering data.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

In theory, the higher thermal mass and greater capacity of the 62kwh pack should allow it to tolerate heat better, by heating less. The question remains, though: what happens in sustained high ambient temperatures when the pack doesn't get a chance to cool?

This is the question. Harder to heat means harder to cool. I have yet to take any trip that sustained any high temps (over 110º) but I did do one a few weeks back when I left the DC charger with batts in the mid 100's and despite averaging 65-70 mph for most of the trip home, my batt temps dropped to 98-100º and stayed in that range. This was a surprise.

I then went back to review a half dozen LEAF Spy logs of various trips I had done (thank you blog) and found that similar drives on the 40 kwh settled at temps much higher with "most" of them only cooling if starting from the upper 110's and generally at slightly slower speeds. Unable to judge ambient as that seems to no longer be available thru LEAF Spy but it is apparent more cells means better temperature management.