The RAV-4 PHEV Topic

[LeftieBiker]

https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/10/toyota-2021-rav4-plug-in-hybrid-tease/

Thanks to the highly popular Prius, Toyota helped make the hybrid a viable alternative to gas-only vehicles. A few years ago, it added a plug-in version, the Prius Prime to compete with the likes of the Chevy Volt. Now it's adding that option to the number one selling SUV in the United States, the 2021 RAV4.

Ahead of the LA Auto Show, Toyota announced that the RAV4 would get the plug-in hybrid treatment. Like most automotive teases ahead of a major event, we don't know much about the upcoming vehicle. There's no word on price, range, battery size etc.

 

[jjeff]

If it's anything like Toyota's previous PHEV offerings it will fall-short of expectations
The Outlander PHEV SUV can do mid 20s EV only range, while the Chrysler PHEV mini-van can do 30+ miles, I'd hope the Rav4 would better those two but I really have my doubts.....Like the Prime it would sure be nice if it had the slightly more expensive heat pump heater, something neither of the two other models I mentioned do

 

[LeftieBiker]

My guess is that it will have the Prime's drivetrain squeezed in around the RAV-4's rear electric motor. Either that or it won't have an AWD option. I too hope for the heat pump and heated steering wheel, with a better driving experience and more cargo room. (Although my housemate has no intention of giving up her beloved old PIP.) AER will probably be a whopping 20 miles. ;-(

 

[HerdingElectrons]

My guess is that it will have the Prime's drivetrain squeezed in around the RAV-4's rear electric motor. Either that or it won't have an AWD option. I too hope for the heat pump and heated steering wheel, with a better driving experience and more cargo room. (Although my housemate has no intention of giving up her beloved old PIP.) AER will probably be a whopping 20 miles. ;-(

Considering the Prime's ICE is a 1.8L engine compared to the RAV-4/Camry/Avalon/Lexus NX200's ICE is 2.5L I highly doubt it.

More likely we will see a larger than the Prime's 8.8kWh pack to support the current draw of the heavier cars & performance expectations of those vehicle types because the electric motors are higher output & will require a larger pack.

Considering the the e-AWD is a small electric motor that operates in a very narrow low speed condition I don't see that being a big packaging obstacle relative to where the packs are located in the vehicles. Some loss of cargo space is more likely to occur IMO.

For funsies I'm gonna guess the pack size will be around 11-12kWh & the vehicles will have 20-25 miles of AER. Hopefully the heat pump will be standard considering the price point of the aforementioned vehicles.

 

[SageBrush]

Toyota is all about iterative designs. Since the RAV PHEV is very likely going to be a RAV hybrid with plug-in shoehorned inside and not a new design starting from a battery skate I also expect a Prime in Rav clothing, albeit with a larger ICE than Prime's 1.8L. Perhaps 2.2L or 2.5L. Whatever the RAV hybrid has today.

PIP battery is 4.4 kWh
Prime battery is 8.8 kWh
I'll guess 13.2 kWh (4.4 *3) kWh for the PHEV

Toyota has up till now made ~ 63% of the nominal kWh capacity usable so if that continues it will work out to 13.2*0.63 = 8.18 kWh
At 350 Wh/mile EPA the vehicle will have 8.18/0.35 = 23.3 miles of combined range.

Will it sell well ? I think it depends on HOV access. The tax credit works out to ~ $6,000 if my battery assumptions are correct. PHEV really is a brilliant design** as implemented by Toyota, but it is in general not used as intended with daily charging. People buy them for the perks.

** The year I owned my Prius Prime I used it mostly for my 90 mile commute to work. I would add 6 kWh of electricity from the meter and I averaged just under 100 mpg as a 4 season average. It was quite amazing.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Considering the the e-AWD is a small electric motor that operates in a very narrow low speed condition I don't see that being a big packaging obstacle relative to where the packs are located in the vehicles. Some loss of cargo space is more likely to occur IMO.

The rear motor is the reason Toyota gave, IIRC, for not offering AWD on the Prime - no room for both the larger pack and the rear motor. Maybe the RAV-4 has more space back there. Given the info about available ICEs I think I agree with Sagebrush: the larger ICE in the otherwise Prime drivetrain. I'm not sure I agree about a larger pack; that will depend on available space. They may simply up the percentage of available capacity used to the same 80% as the Prius II and settle for 20 miles of AER.

 

[SageBrush]

^^ motor power/weight increases every generation so it is hard to guess what space constraints occur in a RAV. One thing I am reasonably sure of though -- PHEV buyers expect EV mode while they have usable battery capacity above that required for hybrid operation, and ace-ing the EPA test requires it too. The Prime motor as we know it is not powerful enough for the heavier RAV.

I was not clear -- when I said Prime in a RAV I was thinking of general drivetrain architecture and modular packs, not the exact same motor.

 

[LeftieBiker]

That was also what I meant, at least after learning that there is a larger ICE available.

 

[GRA]

Now that we know the car will be called the RAV4 Prime, the OP should change the topic title. GCC:

Toyota’s new RAV4 plug-in hybrid SUV offers 39 miles AER, 90 MPGe

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/11/20191120-rav4p.html

At the Los Angeles Auto Show, Toyota introduced its new plug-in hybrid (PHEV) RAV4 performance model with an estimated 302-horsepower, advanced all-wheel drive, sport-tuned suspension and exclusive design features.

In addition to an ability to do 0-60 mph in a projected 5.8 seconds—the second quickest acceleration time in the Toyota lineup—the 2021 RAV4 Prime has an estimated 39 miles of all-electric range—the highest AER of any PHEV SUV on the market. . . The Toyota RAV4 Prime will come to market in summer 2020. . . .

The 2021 RAV4 Prime will be available in SE and XSE grades, both emphasizing athletic on-road performance and premium comfort and style. . . .

The Toyota RAV4 Prime builds on the RAV4 Hybrid. With more powerful motor-generators, a newly developed high-capacity Lithium-Ion battery and a booster converter, the 2021 RAV4 Prime yields an 83-horsepower (hp) jump in total system output over the RAV4 Hybrid and has the most horsepower in its segment. . . .

Notably, the RAV4 Prime uses regular-grade gasoline. . . .

The RAV4 Prime’s passenger space isn’t compromised by the larger Lithium-Ion battery, as it is mounted under the floor. . . .

The RAV4 Prime’s enhanced heat pump HVAC system, based on Prius Prime’s and tailored to fit RAV4 Prime, contributes to an increasing EV range, as energy consumption for cabin temperature control can significantly decrease EV driving range.

The RAV4 Prime employs the same version of Electronic On-Demand All-Wheel Drive (AWD) as the RAV4 Hybrid. In both models, a separate rear-mounted electric motor powers the rear wheels when needed, including proactively on acceleration startup and also in reduced-traction conditions. . . .

With available paddle shifters, the driver can “downshift” to increase the regenerative braking in steps, which fosters greater control when driving in hilly areas, for example. . . .

As on the RAV4 Hybrid, the innovative Predictive Efficient Drive feature acts like an invisible “hyper-miler” co-driver. Using the available navigation system, Predictive Efficient Drive essentially reads the road and learns driver patterns to optimize hybrid battery charging and discharging operations based on driving conditions. The system accumulates data as the vehicle is driven and “remembers” road features such as hills and stoplights and adjusts the hybrid powertrain operation to maximize efficiency.

All Toyota RAV4 models come equipped with standard Toyota Safety Sense (TSS 2.0), which groups a long roster of active-safety technologies and capabilities:

Pre-Collision System with Pedestrian Detection (PCS w/PD)
Full-Speed Range Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (DRCC)
Lane Departure Alert with Steering Assist (LDA w/SA)
Automatic High Beam (AHB)
Lane Tracing Assist (LTA)
Road Sign Assist (RSA)

The XSE Premium Package adds Rear Cross Traffic Braking (RCTB) and Front and Rear Parking Assist with Automated Braking (PA w/AB).

Starting with the 2020 model year, every Toyota Hybrid Battery Warranty has been increased from 8 years or 100,000 miles to 10 years from original date of first use, or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first.

IEVS article:

Toyota RAV4 Prime Is The Most Powerful And Most Efficient Ever

https://insideevs.com/news/383296/toyota-rav4-prime-powerful-efficient/


Man, depending on the price and the handling, a PHEV just moved higher in consideration for me. I still wish it were a bit smaller, but otherwise . . . Of course, I'll still have to wait out the people with money burning holes in the pockets who are willing to pay an ADM, and in any case I prefer not to buy a car in its first year of availability so the company can work out some of the bugs. It may be 2021 before I decide, and there may be other options by then, but this really puts the Outlander and Crosstrek PHEVs in the shade, even if they hadn't just lost their CVRP eligibility.

 

[jjeff]

And for anyone wondering the engine size:
"The RAV4 Prime uses a differently tuned version of the RAV4 Hybrid’s 2.5-liter four-cylinder Atkinson-cycle gasoline engine. It produces the same projected 176 hp as in the hybrid, but paired with the electric motors, total system output equals 302 horsepower.
While I'm glad it's just a 4, unlike other RAV4's that use a V-6, personally I wish it didn't have such a powerful engine. No matter what they say I can't believe if it had a more moderate HP ICE they couldn't have gotten even better EPA numbers....IMO having such a powerful engine only tempts people to use the available HP, therefor decreasing MPG. Now after reading some of the comments in the links I see the increased HP could be due to the larger battery not so much a powerful ICE and the fact that if the battery got depleted Toyota wouldn't want the vehicle to be a total stone, unable to get out of it's own way.....they may have a point and I'd be open to rethinking my initial thoughts about too much HP.
Another advantage of more HP is the ability to tow more, wonder if the RAV4 will be tow rated? shame if it's not with all that HP, even 2500lbs(3500 would be better) would do it for me. Now I understand, any vehicle can tow, case in point my new '94 1L(3-cyl) 69hp Geo Metro I had a 1000lb 100lb tongue weight hitch installed(not rated by Chevy) and occasionally towed such weights, but I'm talking about mfg rated.
Overall I'm quite excited and will be more excited if I see ICE only MPG approaching 40, love the fact it has a heat pump and +30 mile EV range, both which the PHEV Outlander lacks, add heated seats and steering wheel and something I can fit into and price it under $40k after rebates or tax credits and I think I know what my next vehicle will be

 

[jjeff]

Man, depending on the price and the handling, a PHEV just moved higher in consideration for me. I still wish it were a bit smaller, but otherwise . . . Of course, I'll still have to wait out the people with money burning holes in the pockets who are willing to pay an ADM, and in any case I prefer not to buy a car in its first year of availability so the company can work out some of the bugs. It may be 2021 before I decide, and there may be other options by then, but this really puts the Outlander and Crosstrek PHEVs in the shade, even if they hadn't just lost their CVRP eligibility.

I have no issue on the size, personally I'd prefer something larger than say the Kona or Niro, maybe not up to the size of the current Highlander but this isn't. You have a good point on the first-year bugs or even first years design issues, I mean even Nissan figured out a couple first years issues with the Leaf that made the '13's and on quite a bit better than the first 2 years models.....maybe not as many issues as they could have fixed but still a decent improvement. Yes the RAV-4 seems to have eliminated many of shortcomings of the Outlander and Crosstrek PHEVs and as a current Toyota owner of a 10+ year old Prius that hasn't really had any issues in that 10+ years, Toyota reliability weighs high in my mind. And before the Prius I drove my Scion(Toyota) Xb for over 10 years with NO issues(other than oil changes and minimal maintenance) so another + for Toyota reliability. I had more issues with my Nissan in the first year than I had with both my Toyotas in the 20 years total I had with them :idea:

 

[Titanium48]

...
Another advantage of more HP is the ability to tow more, wonder if the RAV4 will be tow rated? shame if it's not with all that HP, even 2500lbs(3500 would be better) would do it for me. Now I understand, any vehicle can tow, case in point my new '94 1L(3-cyl) 69hp Geo Metro I had a 1000lb 100lb tongue weight hitch installed(not rated by Chevy) and occasionally towed such weights, but I'm talking about mfg rated.
Overall I'm quite excited and will be more excited if I see ICE only MPG approaching 40, love the fact it has a heat pump and +30 mile EV range, both which the PHEV Outlander lacks, add heated seats and steering wheel and something I can fit into and price it under $40k after rebates or tax credits and I think I know what my next vehicle will be

The tow rating will be a big deal for me. If they stay with the 680 kg of the current RAV 4 hybrid, it's just another oversized Volt. If they give us the full 1580 kg that some of the ICE RAV4s are rated for, it might replace my Outback one day.

I thought the Metro engine was 55 hp, not 69, but either way it was a blast to drive. Made you feel like a race driver just keeping up with traffic.
I'd really like to see an EV that size - you could probably get close to 200 km out of 20 kWh, and sell it for under $20k.

 

[jjeff]

I thought the Metro engine was 55 hp, not 69, but either way it was a blast to drive. Made you feel like a race driver just keeping up with traffic.
I'd really like to see an EV that size - you could probably get close to 200 km out of 20 kWh, and sell it for under $20k.

The even more fuel-efficient XFI was 55hp, I had the more powerful 5-door 69 hp model With it's stick it wasn't too bad but the rental car 3 speed auto was a real dog! At it's <1700 lbs weight(1690lbs I believe) it didn't have a lot to pull around and ya if an EV would have went a long way even with a small battery. Unfortunately the trade-off of being so light was everything was very thin gauge metal and when the frame eventually rusted through(lasted days past 10 years) there was no way to fix it or anything to weld onto, had to scrap it out with less than 80k on the clock and interior like new oh the little 3 cyl was also like new, never burnt a drop of oid between it's 3k miles I'd change the oil.
In hind site the Metro was probably a death trap, no air bags and under 1700lbs :shock: by comparison the Leaf is an extremely safe vehicle and something like this RAV-4 is bound to be even better!

 

[Titanium48]

Yes, the Metro definitely needed the manual transmission. Not sure why anyone bought the Metro with the automatic when it added 15% to the price of the car and completely took away the fun factor.
As for safety, my Metro met an untimely end when I took a corner too fast and slid off the road into the trees at 80 km/h. Car was obviously totalled, but we walked away with nothing worse than cuts from broken glass.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I think this was a great move on Toyota's part. They are still some distance from any sort of line of full EVs (yes, I know a Lexus was announced, but haven't seen hard timing yet). Rav-4 is very popular and already very efficient in the hybrid form. With AWD, it offers something only the Outlander has been able to offer, but with significantly better non-ev efficiency. If Mitsubishi could both offer better EPA gas efficiency and a 3rd row in PHEV form, they would push out ahead again.

Similar to Nissan Leaf (which I have a plus), it feels like they lost their internal champions to innovate the product and stay ahead. Fat and Lazy syndrome. Taking a nap when only up by a field goal.

 

[GRA]

Man, depending on the price and the handling, a PHEV just moved higher in consideration for me. I still wish it were a bit smaller, but otherwise . . . Of course, I'll still have to wait out the people with money burning holes in the pockets who are willing to pay an ADM, and in any case I prefer not to buy a car in its first year of availability so the company can work out some of the bugs. It may be 2021 before I decide, and there may be other options by then, but this really puts the Outlander and Crosstrek PHEVs in the shade, even if they hadn't just lost their CVRP eligibility.

I have no issue on the size, personally I'd prefer something larger than say the Kona or Niro, maybe not up to the size of the current Highlander but this isn't. You have a good point on the first-year bugs or even first years design issues, I mean even Nissan figured out a couple first years issues with the Leaf that made the '13's and on quite a bit better than the first 2 years models.....maybe not as many issues as they could have fixed but still a decent improvement. Yes the RAV-4 seems to have eliminated many of shortcomings of the Outlander and Crosstrek PHEVs and as a current Toyota owner of a 10+ year old Prius that hasn't really had any issues in that 10+ years, Toyota reliability weighs high in my mind. And before the Prius I drove my Scion(Toyota) Xb for over 10 years with NO issues(other than oil changes and minimal maintenance) so another + for Toyota reliability. I had more issues with my Nissan in the first year than I had with both my Toyotas in the 20 years total I had with them :idea:

For me, my soon-to-be 17 y.o. 2003 Forester is plenty big enough to do everything I need: 175" x 68" x 65" vs. the RAV4's 181-2" x 73" x 67-69". I tried the Niro and it would work for me: 172" x 71" x 61". The length with the rear seats folded is fine, but I'd prefer to have more length in the cargo area with the rear seats up. They could do this in the Niro by moving the rear seats and rear axle forward some - even though the Niro's 3+ inches shorter than my Forester it has a longer wheelbase, 106.3" vs. 99.4", which boosts the rear passenger legroom (adequate and rarely needed by me in my Forester) to exceptional, but shortens the tailgate to seat back length, which is more valuable for me. Like your Toyotas I've never had to do anything other than scheduled maintenance to the Forester, although it only has 68k mostly highway miles on it. My '88 Subie Turbo wagon was another matter, as the timing belts needed replacement every 40k miles or so and there were a few other unscheduled maintenance actions.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

All that (e.g. heated front seats standard) and supposedly a price point in low 30's Toyota knocked it out of the park with this. For us it would let us do most miles in EV, with of course zero range anxiety. Meanwhile, very aggressive acceleration (shocked they hit 302 HP with this!), full AWD, decent size. Toyota's battery warranty is now 150k.

This will come in way cheaper than the mustang or the Y, with Toyota quality.

Still has a spare tire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0YgGMlsMOc

Really an impressive looking package at this price.

 

[Titanium48]

From Toyota Canada's press release:
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/about/news/toyota-revs-up-lineup-with-new-302-horsepower-rav4-prime

it can drive an estimated 60 kilometres on battery alone on a single charge, which is the highest EV range of any PHEV SUV on the market. The RAV4 Prime also has a manufacturer-estimated 2.6 Le/100 km fuel consumption.

That works out to about 14 kWh useable, and likely over 15 kWh nominal. Over 15 kWh would qualify it for the full $5000 EV incentive in Canada (provided the base price stays under $45k).

Toyota engineered the 2021 RAV4 Prime for the performance-oriented driver and is therefore offering it in the sporty SE and XSE grades. The SE grade is new for the RAV4 Prime, and the XSE is currently exclusive to the RAV4 Hybrid. The SE flaunts its sporty attitude with 18-inch painted and machined alloy wheels and an exclusive front grille design and front lower spoiler.

Don't like the sound of that. Way too much prioritization of "sport" over "utility". I want a real tow package, not oversize wheels and other useless bling.

 

[GRA]

From Toyota Canada's press release:
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/about/news/toyota-revs-up-lineup-with-new-302-horsepower-rav4-prime

Toyota engineered the 2021 RAV4 Prime for the performance-oriented driver and is therefore offering it in the sporty SE and XSE grades. The SE grade is new for the RAV4 Prime, and the XSE is currently exclusive to the RAV4 Hybrid. The SE flaunts its sporty attitude with 18-inch painted and machined alloy wheels and an exclusive front grille design and front lower spoiler.

Don't like the sound of that. Way too much prioritization of "sport" over "utility". I want a real tow package, not oversize wheels and other useless bling.

But, but how else can boost their profit margin except by charging you for a bunch of high-profit options you don't want or need, if they don't bundle them into a trim package that forces you to take them? :roll:

 

[LeftieBiker]

My only question at this point is "Heated steering wheel?" I know it has a heat pump.