The Volt is NOT an EV

[evnow]

Motor Trend's reporting that the magic cutoff speed of 70 mph is what the car uses to determine whether or not to make the engine to partially drive the wheels is incorrect. The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power. There is no hard cutoff point.

http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht

So, the ICE can be engaged directly whenever it is deemed more efficient to do so.

 

[DaveEV]

http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht

So, the ICE can be engaged directly whenever it is deemed more efficient to do so.

Good news. Looks like the Volt will get around 40 mpg in charge sustaining mode from the extended test drives I see.

I wonder what's keeping them from getting another 10-15% reduction in fuel consumption? If they could hit 45 mpg in charge sustaining mode that would eliminate most concerns that you'd be significantly better off in a Prius.

Is it solely because their engine does not use the Atkinson cycle? Given that it appears to be able to run in wide-open-throttle most of the time the engine is running, perhaps the Atkinson cycle doesn't buy much additional efficiency. But still - A Prius will easily do 45-50mpg at 65mph on the freeway - why can't the Volt in CS mode?

Similar reason that the Lexus CT200h appears to only do low 40s mpg as well even though it uses the same exact drivetrain as the Prius?

 

[TRONZ]

..... Everyone talks range anxiety,.....

No I think that is just GM that talks about range anxiety. This is probably what doomed the VOLT as an actual EV project. Nissan CEO has no range anxiety, only GM.

Seriously! And the Volt is going with a tag line "It's more car than electric"??? That is just really brilliant GM. Let me think here. How can you attract people that want to drive an electric car??? OH, I get it! Bash electric cars. Wow! What genius! They came up with this all on their own... with our tax dollars even. :twisted:

 

[planet4ever]

Motor Trend's reporting that the magic cutoff speed of 70 mph is what the car uses to determine whether or not to make the engine to partially drive the wheels is incorrect. The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power. There is no hard cutoff point.

http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht

So, the ICE can be engaged directly whenever it is deemed more efficient to do so.

But ONLY in CS mode. Did you miss this part of the article you pointed to:

Farah says that in his mind the Volt is unequivocally an electric car. "The Volt is an electric vehicle...because for the first 40 miles you can get full performance running on nothing but an electric motor until the battery is depleted," he said.

Obviously the ICE is used after the battery is depleted. The Volt is not an electric car when running in CS mode; it's a hybrid. What difference does it make whether it is a series hybrid or a series/parallel hybrid? If you are using the ICE then you should clearly use it in the most efficient way you can.

But in CD mode, for the first 40 miles or so, it is a pure EV. No ICE. Period.

 

[evnow]

But ONLY in CS mode. Did you miss this part of the article you pointed to:

I didn't - I was commenting on the so called 70 mph cutoff MT reported, which is wrong.

BTW, it is not clear whether the engine will never come on in CD mode - if there is a severe acceleration demand. At this point I don't trust GM folks to tell their name truthfully ;-)

 

[LEAFfan]

http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht

So, the ICE can be engaged directly whenever it is deemed more efficient to do so.

Good news. Looks like the Volt will get around 40 mpg in charge sustaining mode from the extended test drives I see.

I wonder what's keeping them from getting another 10-15% reduction in fuel consumption? If they could hit 45 mpg in charge sustaining mode that would eliminate most concerns that you'd be significantly better off in a Prius.

Is it solely because their engine does not use the Atkinson cycle? Given that it appears to be able to run in wide-open-throttle most of the time the engine is running, perhaps the Atkinson cycle doesn't buy much additional efficiency. But still - A Prius will easily do 45-50mpg at 65mph on the freeway - why can't the Volt in CS mode?

Similar reason that the Lexus CT200h appears to only do low 40s mpg as well even though it uses the same exact drivetrain as the Prius?

Good news? Not for the people that thought they could use it like an electric vehicle for 40 miles or so. Now, it seems, that the ICE can come on at any time, so maybe if they stay below 25 mph or so like the Prius, it will stay in electric mode. This has to be really disappointing to a lot of people.

 

[garygid]

If the Volt is an EV, then so is my Prius, with about a 2000 foot range. Also, since most ICE vehicles can be run for some yards on their battery and electric (starter) motor, they are EVs also! :lol:

 

[smkettner]

Also, since most ICE vehicles can be run for some yards on their battery and electric (starter) motor, they are EVs also! :lol:

Did that with my old Mustang a couple times. Ran out of fuel ~30~50 yards from the pump. Put it in second and cranked the starter

 

[evnow]

Good news. Looks like the Volt will get around 40 mpg in charge sustaining mode from the extended test drives I see.

Make sure they aren't counting EV miles (like MSNBC's Alan did).

@b0yle
Alan Boyle

Point taken. RT @EVNow: Misleading to say 7.7 gallons propelled Volt 335 miles. First 33 was on battery. So it should be 39 mpg, not 43.

 

[DaveEV]

Good news? Not for the people that thought they could use it like an electric vehicle for 40 miles or so. Now, it seems, that the ICE can come on at any time, so maybe if they stay below 25 mph or so like the Prius, it will stay in electric mode. This has to be really disappointing to a lot of people.

Yes it's good news. There has been no proof or anything else besides pure speculation that the Volt will turn on the engine to power the car unless the battery runs low. Or are you saying it's bad news that GM engineers decided to design the car to run in the most efficient way possible?

Does that mean that the car couldn't turn on the engine before the battery runs low? No - and the mountain mode setting proves that.

But even if the engine could not send some amount of power to the wheels directly that would not change the speculation.

 

[evnow]

My only problem with Volt is
- Too expensive
- GM marketing people suck

CS mpg doesn't matter much - as long as the commute is all electric. Ofcourse people who commute more or do more long distance drives (like people in Seattle who drive every weekend to Vancouver) would have liked more cs mode mpg.

 

[indyflick]

Also, since most ICE vehicles can be run for some yards on their battery and electric (starter) motor, they are EVs also! :lol:

Did that with my old Mustang a couple times. Ran out of fuel ~30~50 yards from the pump. Put it in second and cranked the starter

:lol: Same here! My 1967 Camaro SS vapor locked and stalled in the middle of a busy five-point intersection during rush hour. I did the same thing, dumped it in second gear and hit the starter (no lockout on those cars). I got it coasting down a hill and popped the clutch. It fired right up and it never stalled again.

 

[planet4ever]

If the Volt is an EV, then so is my Prius, with about a 2000 foot range. Also, since most ICE vehicles can be run for some yards on their battery and electric (starter) motor, they are EVs also! :lol:

You raise a good point. We certainly seem willing to grant that neighborhood EVs are real EVs, even though they they would fail any kind of highway performance requirement, no matter how modest. So how about something I proposed earlier, a sort of usability test. It wouldn't be a pass/fail test (I hate painting everything as black or white) but would yield a percentage grade. It could be based on one, or a few, typical usage scenarios, or it could be individualized to your own driving requirements.

Since I have a year's worth of mileage logs, I was able to estimate in my earlier post that the Volt would be about a 95% EV for me, and the LEAF a 98% EV. I have actually driven our Prius nearly two miles on level ground at a constant speed without the ICE starting up, but I can't do that if I have to stop. The truth is that 0% of my round trips in our Gen 2 Prius are all-electric, so I have to rate it as a 0% EV. A plug-in Prius - either kit or Toyota's 2013 model - would do much better and rank somewhere in between (with the top PICC perhaps passing the Volt).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

this discussion has gone away from GM "lying" about the Volt verses whether the car is worth buying. i still think GM had great intentions but realized in extreme cases, other options worked much better, but lets face it; all the accusations in the world will not change the fact that we will never know since very few will accept anything GM claims now

Postives
i need two cars, PERIOD, no way around that. i need one that can drive over 300 miles in one day. (this is a trip we make 2-5 times a year). but want to "plug it" as much as i can. so the Leaf still comes up as a no-brainer in EVERY scenario i can think of except a single car household.

so we can complain about the Volts 38.2 mpg in CS mode which still really isnt bad. how many non hybrids TRULY do this well?? not many. but then again the high 30's used to be the gold standard for economy. Not any more. unless the Volt will be having a major makeover in 3 years, it will not even qualify under the proposed EPA standards.

now, can it work? sure it can. if i drove it as my primary car, (my commute will soon be 19 miles RT, its currently 14) i would be in EV mode over 90% of the time. i work 4 - 10's (when mandatory OT is not required) have tues, thurs off. those days are devoted to "life maintenance" i do all the shopping, most of the laundry (there are somethings my SO wont allow me to wash) vacuuming, house projects, etc.

i usually divide it to Tues; out of house stuff, thurs; in house stuff. so last Tues was a prime example of having several errands to do requiring shopping trips to several stores. my Zenn took care of 8 miles of it, my Prius took another 34 miles.

now, i have the advantage of living in a medium-small urban area that pretty much covers most of my shopping needs.

now i could have easily done all of that in EV mode since i would have had 2 opportunity charges during that time which would have boosted my EV range. on my test drive, the ride along guy stated typical EV ranges ran from 25-50 miles with a few of the testers regularly getting in the 55-56 miles range. i am fairly sure, i could hit the 50 mile range simply because most of the driving i do lends to high mileage performance. i rarely do the freeway. i plan my trips to where its a fairly short jaunt from one place to another all at surface streets 40 mph or less and i know the best routes to take for better mileage (have had 6+ years of practice!!)

so, i could easily see 100+ mpg performance in the Volt. that is the postives.

Negatives

Size; my commuter car can be smaller only needing to seat 3-4 people. short trips means comfort or luggage storage is not critical. My 2010 Prius has more storage than the Gen 2 Prius (the back is bigger simply because the jogging stroller has to be angled in on the Gen 2, put can put straight in on the Gen 3). on our recent trip, the Gen 3 was packed to the top. it would be EXTREMELY inconvenient to go with something smaller. so the Leaf qualifies, the Volt does not.

Cost; sorry, but GM really missed the boat here. many rumors floated around that Toyota and possibly Nissan sacrificed some profits to put their products out at a more affordable price. at $41,000 we are simply into a completely different price point for automobile purchases. to be honest with ya. if it would have been a mid-medium large vehicle, i could justify it. but its a compact.

plugging in a top priority that i will pay a lot for, but i have limits. right now, a $10,000 plug in option on my Prius would cover my needs. granted it only gets 20 miles of EV operation, but it will cover my commute. that puts total cost at nearly the same as the Volt (i paid $28,000 for Prius on intro special pricing, list was $30,500) i would lose under floor storage, but the rest would be the same. but that is not a critical need, so i can wait on that. still looking

 

[lne937s]

It's official- the EPA has classified the LEAF as an electric car and the Volt as a "plug-in hybrid car"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/15/business/energy-environment/15auto.html?hp

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evnews.shtml

 

[cdub]

Well it IS a hybrid. It has 2 power systems which work together.

 

[Anonymous]

Well it IS a hybrid. It has 2 power systems which work together.

Agreed. I would say that even if the ICE was only operating as a generator. Having a built-in electric and a built-in gas motor, at least in my mind, classifies it as a hybrid.

Of course, I'm not fully up to speed on the exact definitions the EPA uses to determine Hybrid versus pure EV.

 

[planet4ever]

Well it IS a hybrid. It has 2 power systems which work together.

Agreed. I would say that even if the ICE was only operating as a generator. Having a built-in electric and a built-in gas motor, at least in my mind, classifies it as a hybrid.

Of course, I'm not fully up to speed on the exact definitions the EPA uses to determine Hybrid versus pure EV.

Certainly it is a hybrid. I can't imagine that the EPA could classify it any other way since they insist on an either/or classification. The point I keep harping on is that we don't really live in a black/white world, and the Volt is a prime example of shades of gray. For me it would be 95% EV. For a salesman peddling his wares around the state it might be 5% EV.

 

[garygid]

Just because it can be operated in an "electric" mode for a while, does not make it an EV, since, like the Prius, it still carries around an ICE.

But, no matter how you use it, even 100% EV mode, you may call it anything you want.

However, you might get a ticket parking in an EV-Only space.

 

[evnow]

Lot of people seem to forget what a hybrid is.

Hybrid is short for Gas Electric Hybrid. So in a sense Hybrids are a special case of electric cars (or a special case of gas cars).

Offcially, they are called HEVs - Hybrid Electric Vehicles. Both Prius & Volt fall into this category. So do all other hybrids.

Hybrids come in various flavors. We have mild hybrids, strong hybrids like Prius and Volt.

Within strong hybrids, you have parallel hybrids like Prius. We don't have any pure series hybrids yet. Volt is a series-parallel hybrid.