Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

[smkettner]

The 2015 Mirai’s two onboard hydrogen tanks store about 150 kWh of electricity, which can also be used as a backup energy source at home. Adding this “power take-off” was part of the Mirai’s design from the very beginning, according to Satoshi Ogiso, a Toyota managing officer. He told me that there is a similar function available for Toyota’s hybrids (but only available in the Japanese market). “Every one of our hybrids has a generator,” he says, “to make electricity from gasoline and use it for backup power at home or to contribute storage capacity to the grid. With fuel-cell vehicles, we can also get this electricity—and without harmful emissions [at the tailpipe].”

The car’s electrical outlet is a CHAdeMO port—the same connector used for quick-charging many of today’s electric cars. But in this case, the CHAdeMO coupler is used to export electricity, rather than for battery charging.

This is an especially good deal when you can fill up for free. Could fill up on your way to work and power your business too.

 

[GRA]

The 2015 Mirai’s two onboard hydrogen tanks store about 150 kWh of electricity, which can also be used as a backup energy source at home. Adding this “power take-off” was part of the Mirai’s design from the very beginning, according to Satoshi Ogiso, a Toyota managing officer. He told me that there is a similar function available for Toyota’s hybrids (but only available in the Japanese market). “Every one of our hybrids has a generator,” he says, “to make electricity from gasoline and use it for backup power at home or to contribute storage capacity to the grid. With fuel-cell vehicles, we can also get this electricity—and without harmful emissions [at the tailpipe].”

The car’s electrical outlet is a CHAdeMO port—the same connector used for quick-charging many of today’s electric cars. But in this case, the CHAdeMO coupler is used to export electricity, rather than for battery charging.

This is an especially good deal when you can fill up for free. Could fill up on your way to work and power your business too.

IIRR on the Tucson the free fuel is only for 12k miles/year. Not sure what happens after that.

 

[smkettner]

Is that a fuel restriction or just a standard mileage restriction where you pay a fee for each mile over?
Does Tucson also have a Chademo port to export power?

 

[TomT]

Not in the U.S. at least...

Does Tucson also have a Chademo port to export power?

 

[GRA]

Does Tucson also have a Chademo port to export power?

Not in the U.S. at least...

They will be offered here with a V2G option, via an old ABG article previously linked:

What's more, thanks to fuel cell technology's versatility and adaptability, the Mirai offers performance options that go well beyond a traditional automobile. In fact, the vehicle will be offered with an optional power take off (PTO) device that enables Mirai to serve as a mobile generator in case of emergency. With the PTO accessory, Mirai is capable of powering home essentials in an average house for up to a week in an emergency – while emitting only water in the process.

Plus complimentary fuel for "up to three years," presumably limited by mileage.

 

[RegGuheert]

If the Toyota Chademo inverter is designed to produce US grid voltages and frequencies, I'd be interested in purchasing one for the LEAF. Hopefully someone will address any firmware incompatibilities that may exist...

Does anyone know what the output voltage of the Mirai is likely to be? Hopefully just a bit below 400V...

 

[TomT]

He was talking about the Tuscon...

Does Tucson also have a Chademo port to export power?

Not in the U.S. at least...

They will be offered here with a V2G option, via an old ABG article previously linked

 

[eloder]

This is an especially good deal when you can fill up for free. Could fill up on your way to work and power your business too.

Not so attractive once you have to pay parity with gas fuel-up costs afterwards, if not more, on a $60k car with the performance of a i-MIEV.

 

[GRA]

Does Tucson also have a Chademo port to export power?

They will be offered here with a V2G option, via an old ABG article previously linked

Yes, poor comprehension on my part. OTOH, the thread _is_ about the Mirai.

 

[smkettner]

Yes for the price of a Mirai you could install solar and purchase a LEAF (maybe even a base model Tesla)
No free hydrogen made from fossil fuels required.

 

[DaveEV]

MODERATORS NOTE:

Folks, please keep this topic focused on the Mirai itself and not general hydrogen fuel cell discussion.

We really don't need a second thread on this!

I have moved all the general hydrogen fuel cell discussion to the main Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread.

 

[GRA]

MODERATORS NOTE:

Folks, please keep this topic focused on the Mirai itself and not general hydrogen fuel cell discussion.

We really don't need a second thread on this!

I have moved all the general hydrogen fuel cell discussion to the main Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread.

You beat me to it [and I'm just as guilty as anyone].

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Toyota Mirai fuel cell rated with EPA-estimated 67 mpge

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150630-mirai.html

The new Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle (earlier post) will offer an EPA-estimated 67 miles per gallon equivalent (mpge) city/highway/combined when it hits dealerships in California this fall, and an EPA-estimated driving range rating of 312 miles (502 km) on a single fill of hydrogen. . . .

The Toyota Mirai is a four-door, mid-size sedan with performance that fully competes with traditional internal combustion engines. In addition to its range range and fuel economy, Mirai offers a comprehensive ownership experience:

Three years’ worth of complimentary fuel

Three years complimentary Safety Connect and Entune, including hydrogen station finder app

Three years of 24/7 customer call support.

Mirai Complimentary Rental Experience for seven days per year for three years.

ToyotaCare, the standard no-cost service plan and roadside assistance, is enhanced for Mirai and offers no-cost scheduled maintenance for three years, or 35,000 miles, whichever comes first; and no-cost enhanced roadside assistance for three years, regardless of mileage, including expedited towing service and trip interruption reimbursement at a maximum of $500 per day for up to 5 days per incident.

8-year/100,000-mile warranty on key fuel cell vehicle components including the FC stack and power control unit; FC hydrogen tanks; hybrid battery pack and ECU; FC air compressor, boost converter and ECU; hybrid control module (power management control module); and hydrogen fueling ECU.

 

[eloder]

How they came to that mpge rating, I'll never know. The costs of hydrogen fill-ups are well-documented, and unless Toyota has tripled the efficiency of the last FC vehicle created it's still going to cost more than a gasser to drive, once that convenient fuel subsidy is lifted.

I'd be convinced to go back to a sufficiently luxury ICE if someone bought me gas for three years, too.

 

[epirali]

How they came to that mpge rating, I'll never know. The costs of hydrogen fill-ups are well-documented, and unless Toyota has tripled the efficiency of the last FC vehicle created it's still going to cost more than a gasser to drive, once that convenient fuel subsidy is lifted.

I'd be convinced to go back to a sufficiently luxury ICE if someone bought me gas for three years, too.

That would be your choice, others spend way more than they need in order to support a technology they believe in. Case and point: Tesla. It is in no way cost effective, I can buy a diesel luxury car for $40K, and I would have a hard time spending the other $40K in gasoline over the lifetime ($15K for 200,000 miles worth of diesel).

So essentially by this logic no one should buy a Tesla?

 

[xmetal]

I admit to being mystified by this car. Wasn't the Fuel Cell thing tried more than once already (Honda, BMW...)? We can assume that Toyota has spent many, MANY millions of dollars on this and while I get that all new tech has to start somewhere, the big marketing push for a car that currently looks to be aimed at one neighborhood in California just makes no sense to me. Toyota's own site shows that there are only 3 fill up stations in the US. Ouch. The govt alternative fuel site shows a few more, but note the comparison to EV (not to mention that every home has electricity, which can not be said for Hydrogen.)

I also find it telling that most of the marketing copy on the site seems to be aimed at telling people how safe it is. Tech minded folks realize that hydrogen is no more dangerous than gasoline, but the fact that there is so much discussion of safety (which I doubt is ever a concern with an EV) points to a real uphill battle.

I'm not sure of how the hydrogen is being made to fill up these cars, but last time I checked the most common way was using electricity to split water, so that electricity has to come from the grid somewhere (which is the most common argument against EV's since there are few solar/wind plants in the US).

So in the end, I just don't get it. Seems like far more cons than pros, compared to EV or even ICE. :?:

 

[mbender]

I'm not sure of how the hydrogen is being made to fill up these cars, but last time I checked the most common way was using electricity to split water

Either you checked a long time ago, or there's been a quick turnabout in how most hydrogen is produced:

• Wikipedia[/url]"]Currently, the majority of hydrogen (~95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming or partial oxidation of methane and coal gasification with only a small quantity by other routes such as biomass gasification or electrolysis of water.[3]

That being said, I think it's fair to say that a lot of people are mystified by this car, and I'm not just referring to its "styling". ;-)
(Actually, I think we're more mystified by Toyota's motivations and refusal to make BEVs. Perhaps they think the success of BEVs would eat into their Prius cash-cow sales(?) But if that's their fear and it does happen, then they are just delaying the inevitable and will be a no-show when [P]HEVs really do finish their run.)

 

[GRA]

I admit to being mystified by this car. Wasn't the Fuel Cell thing tried more than once already (Honda, BMW...)? We can assume that Toyota has spent many, MANY millions of dollars on this and while I get that all new tech has to start somewhere, the big marketing push for a car that currently looks to be aimed at one neighborhood in California just makes no sense to me. Toyota's own site shows that there are only 3 fill up stations in the US. Ouch. The govt alternative fuel site shows a few more, but note the comparison to EV (not to mention that every home has electricity, which can not be said for Hydrogen.)

I also find it telling that most of the marketing copy on the site seems to be aimed at telling people how safe it is. Tech minded folks realize that hydrogen is no more dangerous than gasoline, but the fact that there is so much discussion of safety (which I doubt is ever a concern with an EV) points to a real uphill battle.

I'm not sure of how the hydrogen is being made to fill up these cars, but last time I checked the most common way was using electricity to split water, so that electricity has to come from the grid somewhere (which is the most common argument against EV's since there are few solar/wind plants in the US).

So in the end, I just don't get it. Seems like far more cons than pros, compared to EV or even ICE. :?:

The rationale for and against H2/FCEVs, has been discussed and argued exhaustively and repetitively in the "Hydrogen and FCEVs Discussion Thread", http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744

If you really want to know all the details, take a week or so off work and read that thread from the beginning. It's up to around 2,350 posts now, admittedly many of them repetitive argument cycles.

 

[lorenfb]

Could the recent Mirai news release, i.e. within the last week to 10 days, have had some impact on the
decline of the Tesla stock this week?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Could the recent Mirai news release, i.e. within the last week to 10 days, have had some impact on the
decline of the Tesla stock this week?

Absolutley. People are leaving Tesla powered cars at airports and abandoned on the streets, clamoring for the Toyota Hydrogen car.

One former Tesla owner (who didn't want his name released for fear of persecution from Elon Musk himself) said he particularly enjoys not having to think about about all "those" Superchargers, and instead can focus his attention on the several public hydrogen stations.

Another P85D owner, who only got his car weeks ago, has donated his car to a charity. "I just couldn't handle the INSANE car anymore. Who builds a car that actually says INSANE?", said the former owner. He is camping out at a Toyota dealer now, waiting to be one of the lucky dozens of people to get their hands on this "car-of-the-future"! He is considering a trip to Japan to buy one there, and ship it to the USA.

Another former Tesla stockholder claims that, "Tesla was only successful because nobody had produced that compelling hydrogen car. Now that Toyota has done that, there is no future for Tesla."

Fox News, in conjunction with the Wall Street Journal, will have an expose coming out VERY soon that will show all the shady back door dealings and "smoke and mirrors" that Tesla uses to make it seem like that have a good car, knowing that the end is near with the emergence of this Toyota SUPER car!!!

Wise investors are quietly dumping Tesla stock, and buying up all that Toyota and Linde stock. Don't be stuck in the past! Get out of TSLA while you can!!!