Unable to Restart after using AC (was AC causes failure)

[planet4ever]

No one but an absolute i-d-i-o-t turns their car off in the middle of the road. Period.

Oops! I guess I'm an absolute i-d-i-o-t. I did exactly that just yesterday in my ICE. In fact I do it every once in a while. I pulled up to an intersection in the left turn lane and just missed the signal. I knew I was going to have to wait about three minutes for the oncoming traffic and then the cross traffic. I could see a traffic signal for the cross traffic. I turned off the engine, shifted to Park, and waited for the cross traffic signal to turn green, then yellow. I started the car, shifted to Drive, and was ready to go when the left turn signal turned green.

Hybrids, even mild hybrids, turn off their engines all the time at a stop light; why shouldn't I do the same with the ICE?

Ray

 

[davewill]

No one but an absolute i-d-i-o-t turns their car off in the middle of the road. Period.

Oops! I guess I'm an absolute i-d-i-o-t. I did exactly that just yesterday in my ICE...

Hybrids, even mild hybrids, turn off their engines all the time at a stop light; why shouldn't I do the same with the ICE?

Ray

Because even mild hybrids will still get out of the intersection if the ICE fails to start. They also spin their engines up to 300 or so RPM before starting, making the restart much less traumatic and wasteful of gas than a regular ICE.

 

[nater]

No one but an absolute i-d-i-o-t turns their car off in the middle of the road. Period.

Oops! I guess I'm an absolute i-d-i-o-t. I did exactly that just yesterday in my ICE. In fact I do it every once in a while. I pulled up to an intersection in the left turn lane and just missed the signal. I knew I was going to have to wait about three minutes for the oncoming traffic and then the cross traffic. I could see a traffic signal for the cross traffic. I turned off the engine, shifted to Park, and waited for the cross traffic signal to turn green, then yellow. I started the car, shifted to Drive, and was ready to go when the left turn signal turned green.

Hybrids, even mild hybrids, turn off their engines all the time at a stop light; why shouldn't I do the same with the ICE?

Ray

Ray, a lot of ICE cars run open-loop during startup, meaning they run rich and with the O2 sensor unheated and out of the feedback loop. This means the car has no choice but to guess about how much fuel to add, and it adds quite a bit extra to make sure the car starts. Basically, it might not save you any fuel, and will wear out your starter and ring gear a little early. Also, in the "startup" mode, emissions are through the roof. Not saying three minutes isn't worth it, but under a minute is likely no benefit.

Nate

 

[RikiTiki]

No one but an absolute i-d-i-o-t turns their car off in the middle of the road. Period.

Ray

Not saying three minutes isn't worth it, but under a minute is likely no benefit.

Nate

Im pretty sure ICE cars use about a half gallon an hour idling depending on number of cylinders. And Nate is right - the pennys you save on gas will be for nothing because of starter motor failure in the long run. Its not worth it. Non-hybrid starters are not meant to start the car repeatedly with out long cool down periods between starts.

Also..

On the subject of the OP, most high end enthusiast home computer systems have "dual bios" incase of troubles booting or troubles with firmware I think Nissan should too for its Leafs ASAP.

Dual bios would be like restarting a computer to last known working configuration with system restore in windows computers and I think is needed from here on out on all EV's. It would be like a safe mode restart where non critical systems like Air conditioning/radio/GPS can not halt the entire cars bootup and can be shunted to allow the system to run in safe mode to get you home without AC or other less vital systems. =)

signed,
RikiTiki
(Nissan Leaf Fan)!

 

[nater]

I engineer cable modems for a living; we have dual boot capability. If software image A is flawed, load image B. If B is flawed, load A. If running A, upgrade B, then load B every time. If running from B, upgrade A and now load A every time. The same can be done to field upgrade a car.

Nate

 

[EVDRIVER]

When I turn my heat on my car runs better, it's the inverse of the AC issue. I smoked the tires for a block, unreal!

 

[ENIAC]

I engineer cable modems for a living; we have dual boot capability. If software image A is flawed, load image B. If B is flawed, load A. If running A, upgrade B, then load B every time. If running from B, upgrade A and now load A every time. The same can be done to field upgrade a car.

Nate

But the issue here is that the LEAF believes it has encountered a catastrophic situation. When you try to restart, the LEAF will see the previous catastrophic error code and not boot into "ready" state. As an example, lets say your cable modem was plugged into a circuit which just popped its GFI. It's not going to boot regardless how many images you have.

 

[ENIAC]

When I turn my heat on my car runs better, it's the inverse of the AC issue. I smoked the tires for a block, unreal!

Oh gawd... que Gary's nastygram. :lol:

 

[rmay635703]

No one but an absolute i-d-i-o-t turns their car off in the middle of the road. Period.

Oops! I guess I'm an absolute i-d-i-o-t. I did exactly that just yesterday in my ICE. In fact I do it every once in a while. I pulled up to an intersection in the left turn lane and just missed the signal. I knew I was going to have to wait about three minutes for the oncoming traffic and then the cross traffic.

Why shouldn't I do the same with the ICE?

Ray

I do the same with a MT Cobalt, around town I have peaked 72mpg in the summer time when I have the convience of following a specific path. (but I can bump start)

Also I wouldn't worry so much about the starter, just lookup your vehicle and year and see if the starter is reliable or not. Many modern gear reduced starters are very reliable (some, especially replacement models are very unreliable). Some on ecomodder have logged over 300000miles on a starter shutting off at every intersection and restarting. (if the starter couldn't do this, how do the UPS trucks which seem to be off while still moving around here figure a 6 year replacement schedual?)

My cobalt averages 44mpg in the winter and 50mpg in the summer, year round is about 47mpg average. I am only supposed to get about 35mpg with 12k miles a year, I am conservatively saving about $250 each year. The cost to rebuild my starter at the local motor winder is between $35-$100 depending on what goes (yes I would remove and re-install), so I guess as long as I don't have to pay for 2 starters a year I am golden and in the green.

If I had to buy a NEW starter and have someone else install it that would be very different.

 

[derkraut]

When I turn my heat on my car runs better, it's the inverse of the AC issue. I smoked the tires for a block, unreal!

What kind of car is that, EV----maybe a '64 Pontiac GT Judge?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[aqn]

I engineer cable modems for a living; we have dual boot capability. If software image A is flawed, load image B. If B is flawed, load A. If running A, upgrade B, then load B every time. If running from B, upgrade A and now load A every time. The same can be done to field upgrade a car.

Nate

Two boot images?! Like there's not enough chances for a SNAFU with just one boot image!

 

[nater]

Two boot images gives you disaster recovery. A spare, if you will. Mostly used for interrupted or invalid upgrades. Once the proper boot image is in flash, nothing bad ever happens to it.

Nate

 

[evnow]

I engineer cable modems for a living; we have dual boot capability. If software image A is flawed, load image B. If B is flawed, load A. If running A, upgrade B, then load B every time. If running from B, upgrade A and now load A every time. The same can be done to field upgrade a car.

The problem is not just with upgrades going wrong. It is with a small number of cars that might develop some problem after the upgrade resulting in legal problems for the car company. That is the reason, they would always want to do this at a dealer who can check and make sure the car is functioning normally before handing over.

 

[GeekEV]

For sure. TiVo's do that too. I think it's pretty common practice for systems the user has no way of fixing...

 

[Leafittome]

From an author who posted on All Cars Electric.com:

I disagree with some of the technical assessments made by this article and comments. The DTCs being reported by the affected Leaf owners are for "loss of isolation". Anyone working with or on hybrids or electric vehicles should be very familiar with these types of faults/failures. Essentially it indicates that select vehicle module/s have detected the presence of high-voltage (~300VDC of either + or - polarity)exists on the vehicle ground plane.
The threshold for these DTCs to "set" is somewhat variable but generally trigger when isolation is detected as being lass than 100-250K ohms. The high-voltage positive and negative circuits must remain isolated from the chassis and bodywork of a vehicle to both prevent damage to negative grounded compo entry AND maintain general electric vehicle safety.
This safety system then prevents the various components on the car from becoming "live" by actively disconnecting the energy storage system from its cabling to the rest of the car.
The air-conditioning system is always suspect with isolation DTCs are present due to the fact that the A/C compressor will often operate at high-voltages on many hybrids and EVs. Contamination, excessive moisture and/or air or the use of incorrect refrigerant oils (generally polyolefin ester based) can often trigger these DTCs. So in this case, one would think the use of the A/C compressor is merely the triggering mechanism, not necessarily the root cause.
Altering the software to lower the LOI detection levels to rectify this issue isn’t really a viable option UNLESS it is proven that there really isnt an LOI issue that exists and the threshold used by Nissan is abnormally high.
At this point I'm certain Nissan's efforts are focused on determining if there is truly an LOI issue present (and YES if so the safest thing to do is SHUT DOWN the high-voltage source via the contactor system)OR if an anomaly truly exists in their self-diagnostic routines for loss-of isolation.
Until such determination can be ascertained, it would not be advisable for owners of these cars to do anything but get these cars to their Nissan dealers where trained technicians can properly and safely assess if any risk exists.
No attempt to “clear” the DTCs or otherwise bypass these detected safety concerns should be made without full understanding of the risks involved.
HTH
WopOnTour

 

[planet4ever]

Also I wouldn't worry so much about the starter, just lookup your vehicle and year and see if the starter is reliable or not.

Don't even need to look it up - it's a Toyota, so it'll run forever.

Oh... er... um... maybe I should reword that.

Ray

 

[Stoaty]

From an author who posted on All Cars Electric.com

Here is the link:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1058150_breaking-2011-nissan-leaf-start-failure--what-you-need-to-know/page-2

 

[nater]

No one but an absolute i-d-i-o-t turns their car off in the middle of the road. Period.

Oops! I guess I'm an absolute i-d-i-o-t. I did exactly that just yesterday in my ICE. In fact I do it every once in a while. I pulled up to an intersection in the left turn lane and just missed the signal. I knew I was going to have to wait about three minutes for the oncoming traffic and then the cross traffic.

Why shouldn't I do the same with the ICE?

Ray

I do the same with a MT Cobalt, around town I have peaked 72mpg in the summer time when I have the convience of following a specific path. (but I can bump start)

Also I wouldn't worry so much about the starter, just lookup your vehicle and year and see if the starter is reliable or not. Many modern gear reduced starters are very reliable (some, especially replacement models are very unreliable). Some on ecomodder have logged over 300000miles on a starter shutting off at every intersection and restarting. (if the starter couldn't do this, how do the UPS trucks which seem to be off while still moving around here figure a 6 year replacement schedual?)

My cobalt averages 44mpg in the winter and 50mpg in the summer, year round is about 47mpg average. I am only supposed to get about 35mpg with 12k miles a year, I am conservatively saving about $250 each year. The cost to rebuild my starter at the local motor winder is between $35-$100 depending on what goes (yes I would remove and re-install), so I guess as long as I don't have to pay for 2 starters a year I am golden and in the green.

If I had to buy a NEW starter and have someone else install it that would be very different.

You will wear out the ring gear at the same rate. If you have to replace it, it involves removing the transmission. I'm speaking from experience, not speculating.

Nate

 

[Sasparilla]

Some official word from Nissan...they better be sure about this or it will make the problem much worse.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/15/nissan-explains-leaf-start-up-problems-5300-evs-fixed/

Here's the text from the NIssan:

Nissan has found that a very small proportion of the Nissan LEAFs in the market today have reported incidents which require reprogramming of the Vehicle Control Module to address incorrect diagnosis programming. Yet, as the LEAF is very important to us, Nissan has decided to perform a service campaign on 5,300 Nissan LEAF vehicles in the Japanese, North American, European and other markets to ensure all of our customers are satisfied.

This is not a safety issue as the vehicle will not stop running while being driven, but may not restart once it is turned off.

Approximately 500 Nissan LEAF customer vehicles in the U.S. are affected by this campaign. In an effort to minimize the inconvenience to these customers a message will be sent through the on-board telematics system early next week prompting the owners to contact their Nissan dealer to arrange reprogramming of the software to address this issue. Nissan will also contact potentially affected owners through traditional channels to inform them about this issue.

We are fully aware that this issue may have inconvenienced some of our customers. Nissan is committed to a high level of customer service and satisfaction, and is working with dealers to promptly address the issue.

 

[Stoaty]

Approximately 500 Nissan LEAF customer vehicles in the U.S. are affected by this campaign. In an effort to minimize the inconvenience to these customers a message will be sent through the on-board telematics system early next week prompting the owners to contact their Nissan dealer to arrange reprogramming of the software to address this issue.

That sounds like a definitive statement that the undelivered Leafs will get the software update before being delivered (makes sense, obviously).