Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[Hawk0630]

This is Jeff from Nissan.

It appears that Brian was warmly received by the community. Brian will be a regular on the forum.

I see that he has responded to a number of questions already. For those that we have not answered immediately, we will verify the question and response with the engineers and come back to this thread with an update.

I see the question about the "battery price" announcement. I (still) am committing to starting a new thread on or before June 20 (the date that Andy committed to) where we will provide details of our program.

Regards,

Jeff

 

[Stoaty]

I have a question: Does the improved gauge accuracy translate into more energy being available from a fully-charged battery that has lost say two of the original capacity bars? That would be my expectation.

 

[Stanton]

I have a question: Does the improved gauge accuracy translate into more energy being available from a fully-charged battery that has lost say two of the original capacity bars? That would be my expectation.

...and THAT is the $64k question! Couldn't have asked it better myself...
Great to see some official Nissan reps on the forum!

 

[Jay]

Good stuff from Brian and Jeff giving us the heads up and getting this done before the end of spring. Excited to see some battery cost details...will definitely be putting the word out on this 'tout de suite'

Update: tada! (with proper nod to mynissanleaf of course, hehe)

Nissan Makes Good On Battery Warranty Pledge For 2011-2012 LEAF Owners + Software Update
http://insideevs.com/nissan-makes-good-on-battery-warranty-plesge-for-2011-2012-leaf-owners-software-update/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[vijayl]

Thanks for caming forward and shared/clarified the warranty
I have concerns about how Nissan considers Bars (which represents a Percentage Range) in the Warranty: Based on the Service Manual

• 
  o 1st bar is lost at 15% of lost capacity
  o Losing 4 bars equate to 66% capacity, NOT 70%
  o Why don't Nissan show the true SoC and % SoC and warranty based on SoC, not number of bars?
  o Can Nissan consider refreshing batteries of both 2011 & 2012 Leafs by 10%, irrespective of number of bars lost?. Meaning at the end of 5year or 60,000miles, if capacity is 70%, they refresh it to make it 77%? Because we are early adapters..

 

[Psyclonus]

Does "greater compatibility with an expanded range of EV charging equipment" mean that it'll be safe to use the power button on my GE Wattstation following the update? For those of us who are already aware of the potential issue, not being vague about the change would be very helpful.

 

[Stoaty]

• 
  o Losing 4 bars equate to 66% capacity, NOT 70%
  o Why don't Nissan show the true SoC and % SoC and warranty based on SoC, not number of bars?
  o Can Nissan consider refreshing batteries of both 2011 & 2012 Leafs by 10%, irrespective of number of bars lost?. Meaning at the end of 5year or 60,000miles, if capacity is 70%, they refresh it to make it 77%? Because we are early adapters..

My answers:

1) 3 bars is 72.5% capacity, which doesn't cross the 70% threshold, so they chose 4 bars
2) % SOC is shown for the 2013 models, but apparently wasn't technically feasible for 2011-2012 models based on previous discussion
3) Of course that would be nice, but ain't gonna happen

 

[mxp]

I have a question: Does the improved gauge accuracy translate into more energy being available from a fully-charged battery that has lost say two of the original capacity bars? That would be my expectation.

While your expectation is a logical idea, the fact remains that the "baseline" of a good battery needs to be clearly and consistently defined. Does 281 GIDs (I forget what the actual number is) represent the reference baseline?

I think your question actually raises a concern that I have:

Will the software update simply alter the algorithm of how the battery capacity is calculated/displayed given the existing state of the battery? I am not sure how to describe it but it's akin to software made to hide the true health of the battery.

Say:
281 GIDs = 12 bars
250 GIDs = 12 bars (after software update)

Surely you wouldn't want to purchase the vehicle with the lower GIDs even though the battery meter indicates full capacity right?

I dislike the idea of this software update made to "mask" the true health of the battery. If the battery does not measure 281 GIDs, it should be warrantied by Nissan. Period.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I'm leasing so it doesn't matter that much to me, but....

If I understand that warranty statement, it sounds like someone's battery needs to degrade just enough (a lot, 33% loss?) to qualify for the warranty. But the "fix" only needs to bring it over the bar, such as 1% greater capacity??

Say the benchmark is 70% as in the original note. If capacity of 69% causes it to be a warranty issue, then the fix may only bring it up to 71%?

That doesn't seem very useful.

I worry that this practice will give EVs a bad name. No one will want to touch a used electric vehicle if they know the battery is severely degraded and the fix only marginally improves it.

I would have assumed that the fix would make it like a new battery or at least much closer to new than 70%. Thats a huge amount of loss on a vehicle that already causes a good bit of range anxiety.

 

[Valdemar]

Great that it is now official. However, I can't resist but say that one is likely going to be prudent by delaying the s/w update for the capacity gauge until 60 months or 60,000 miles.

 

[Weatherman]

Say the benchmark is 70% as in the original note. If capacity of 69% causes it to be a warranty issue, then the fix may only bring it up to 71%?

That doesn't seem very useful.

The consensus seems to be that, although Nissan is only guaranteeing to provide a replacement with more than 70% capacity, they will go above that to avoid the cost of replacing the battery multiple times, especially if the car has many years or many miles to go to reach 5 years or 60,000 miles.

At the rate my LEAF's battery is degrading, I'd expect to reach less than 70% capacity by the end of the summer of 2014 (at a little over two years and 20,000 miles). Although it's possible, I'd be very surprised if I had to get the battery replaced multiple times between September 2014 and the time I return the car to Nissan in July 2015. Down here, the degradation doesn't slow down much during the late fall, winter and early spring. Temps can remain in the 70s and 80s all winter long.

However, if it does appear to be headed in that direction, I'll get another car and have the LEAF sit in my driveway most of the time. The battery will still degrade due to the warm temperatures. Then Nissan can have fun replacing the battery as often as they want.

 

[surfingslovak]

I have a question: Does the improved gauge accuracy translate into more energy being available from a fully-charged battery that has lost say two of the original capacity bars? That would be my expectation.

I dislike the idea of this software update made to "mask" the true health of the battery. If the battery does not measure 281 GIDs, it should be warrantied by Nissan. Period.

All fair questions, and interesting conclusions. My personal reading of the announcement is that Nissan will stick to the originally published capacity bar definition, and the software update will improve the accuracy of the gauge. Based on the data gleaned from owners online, it would appear that the gauge did not conform entirely to the capacity percentages it's supposed to represent. Again, that's just my personal opinion. We will have to wait for further clarification from Nissan, which is hopefully forthcoming.

Source: 2011 Nissan LEAF shop manual

 

[Stoaty]

Will the software update simply alter the algorithm of how the battery capacity is calculated/displayed given the existing state of the battery? I am not sure how to describe it but it's akin to software made to hide the true health of the battery.

Say:
281 GIDs = 12 bars
250 GIDs = 12 bars (after software update)

Surely you wouldn't want to purchase the vehicle with the lower GIDs even though the battery meter indicates full capacity right?

I dislike the idea of this software update made to "mask" the true health of the battery. If the battery does not measure 281 GIDs, it should be warrantied by Nissan. Period.

According to Nissan, it's the other way around. The current software "masks" the true health of the battery, making it look like it has lost more capacity than it has actually lost. The software update is designed to reveal the true health of the battery. There is plenty of information in the Wiki to support their contention that the current gauge is overly pessimistic about battery capacity. You can read all about it:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Range_Test_on_Cars_with_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PS Even with the current bars, 12 capacity bars covers a range of about 232 Gids to 281 Gids. It's only when you get below around 232 Gids that you lose the first capacity bar.

 

[Volusiano]

Great that it is now official. However, I can't resist but say that one is likely going to be prudent by delaying the s/w update for the capacity gauge until 60 months or 60,000 miles.

I would assume that doing the sw update may be conditional to claiming the battery warranty, but maybe Nissan can clarify this point better.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Steve Marsh Had 17.5% degradation With 12 Bars (He Did Lose The Bar A Few Weeks After The GID measurement) So Hoping This Update Will Allow The Bars To Disappear More Consistently

 

[DaveEV]

It would be interesting if those of us, who recently lost a capacity bar, would get one back (at least for a little while).

The good news is that with summer nearly here people have been losing capacity bars like flies. :shock:

Do you have info on the exact date the software update will be available at the local dealer? The main reason I ask is that I need to take my Leaf in for the my second annual battery check in 1-2 weeks and hope to get the software update done at the same time. If it will be a bit longer, not a problem, would just be a lot more convenient for me.

+1 - same situation here for me.

 

[Valdemar]

Great that it is now official. However, I can't resist but say that one is likely going to be prudent by delaying the s/w update for the capacity gauge until 60 months or 60,000 miles.

I would assume that doing the sw update may be conditional to claiming the battery warranty, but maybe Nissan can clarify this point better.

Wouldn't it contradict this part?

If your vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge is already displaying eight (8) or fewer bars of capacity prior to the above referenced software update (and within the first 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first), your Nissan dealer will verify this condition and arrange for the repair or replacement of the lithium-ion battery in accordance with the terms of the warranty.

 

[surfingslovak]

It would be interesting if those of us, who recently lost a capacity bar, would get one back (at least for a little while).

The good news is that with summer nearly here people have been losing capacity bars like flies. :shock:

Word. I think part of the problem we are seeing this summer is that now California appears to be affected to a larger degree. The number of LEAFs there is likely an order of magnitude higher than in Arizona. Russ Finley made a nice graph last year:

 

[usadiamond]

This warranty just sounds offensive to me. A leaf with 9 bars or less is no better than a golf cart. First, false advertisement about 100 mile range BS and now warranty to guarantee 49 mile range?! I'd rather Nissan to be straight up and just tell the 1st gen Leaf owners to suck it up and prepare for their cars to run useless in a few years.
I still have all 12 bars, but only get about 60 mile range down from 80 after less than two years. #nissandisappointing

 

[Valdemar]

This warranty just sounds offensive to me. A leaf with 9 bars or less is no better than a golf cart. First, false advertisement about 100 mile range BS and now warranty to guarantee 49 mile range?! I'd rather Nissan to be straight up and just tell the 1st gen Leaf owners to suck it up and prepare for their cars to run useless in a few years.
I still have all 12 bars, but only get about 60 mile range down from 80 after less than two years. #nissandisappointing

Mine is about same age and I can still can do 72 miles in mixed cycle on mostly flat terrain just after hitting LBW. Never needed to go farther on a single charge but I'm guessing 80 is not out of the question. 100 mile claim was a stretch, but doable still.