Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[DaveEV]

chill with the name-calling and/or character attacks.
this happened earlier in this thread by someone else, as well.
it only makes you look small and your point is diminished.

Gee - I wonder what category "SYB" falls under? Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

Here's some more info on the new battery. Apparently there is to be a change in the separator material, from polypropylene to ceramic coated polypropylene. This according to a report on streetinsider.com

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst+Comments/Polypore+%28PPO%29+Likely+to+Continue+as+Supplier+for+Nissan+Leaf+Battery/8637838.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good find. Isn't one of the differences between the AESC LMO battery and the LG Chem LMO battery the separator? Further research showed that LG Chem used to get their separator from Polycore, but now produce it themselves.

 

[RegGuheert]

Here's some more info on the new battery. Apparently there is to be a change in the separator material, from polypropylene to ceramic coated polypropylene. This according to a report on streetinsider.com

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst+Comments/Polypore+%28PPO%29+Likely+to+Continue+as+Supplier+for+Nissan+Leaf+Battery/8637838.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good find. Isn't one of the differences between the AESC LMO battery and the LG Chem LMO battery the separator? Further research showed that LG Chem used to get their separator from Polycore, but now produce it themselves.

So the question becomes whether the Polypore (and now LG) separators used in the Volt have the aluminum oxide ceramic coating. If so, that would be the first direct evidence that there was something in the Volt battery chemistry itself that gave that battery longer life.

 

[mwalsh]

So the question becomes whether the Polypore (and now LG) separators used in the Volt have the aluminum oxide ceramic coating. If so, that would be the first direct evidence that there was something in the Volt battery chemistry itself that gave that battery longer life.

I got the impression from somewhere that they maybe did. At least they showed a picture of a Volt pack on the page I was looking at. I'll see if I can find it again.

Yep. Here it is...second paragraph (although it doesn't say what the ceramic coating is):

http://www.atzonline.com/index.php;do=show/site=a4e/sid=GWV/alloc=1/id=9007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Weatherman]

It would be interesting if the Volt battery already had a lot of the heat-resistant features of Nissan's proposed "hot battery", and yet GM still chose to put a TMS on the Volt. It suggests these heat-resistant features may slow down the degradation rate a bit, but not enough to allow GM to meet its goal of giving the customer a consistent battery range experience for the life of the car.

 

[thankyouOB]

personal attacks on nissan? really?

i thought you were a moderator. now, you are calling me a hypocrite?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It would be interesting if the Volt battery already had a lot of the heat-resistant features of Nissan's proposed "hot battery", and yet GM still chose to put a TMS on the Volt.

Even the most low level TMS that Nissan can add to the car (without any modifications to the actual car), like an insulated battery box and then siphon some cool air from the existing air conditioner compressor (yes, not an original concept... see Mitsubishi iMiev).

Some simple logic.. any time the car is in READY, or charging, or plugged in, or above 50% SOC, the TMS is armed.

Certainly, with just battery power and not in READY or charging, the temperature threshold can be much higher.

 

[smkettner]

I keep thinking the battery pack should include a thermoelectric device to move heat out of the battery.
May not have the capacity or efficiency of chilled coolent from a heat pump but if the thermoelectric ran 24/7 maybe the average temp could be reduced ten degrees.

 

[TomT]

As you noted, one of the problems with Peltier cooling is that it is notoriously inefficient...

I keep thinking the battery pack should include a thermoelectric device to move heat out of the battery.
May not have the capacity or efficiency of chilled coolent from a heat pump but if the thermoelectric ran 24/7 maybe the average temp could be reduced ten degrees.

 

[Bicster]

Thermoelectric devices are costly, inefficient, and produce even more heat, which you must then get rid of, so the need for another cooling system doesn't go away. If you cool one side of a TEC by x degrees, the other side gets hotter by more than x degrees because of the power consumed by the TEC itself.

 

[RegGuheert]

I got the impression from somewhere that they maybe did. At least they showed a picture of a Volt pack on the page I was looking at. I'll see if I can find it again.

Yep. Here it is...second paragraph (although it doesn't say what the ceramic coating is):

http://www.atzonline.com/index.php;do=show/site=a4e/sid=GWV/alloc=1/id=9007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks! Sure enough, there it is:

The Korean battery maker's cells provide Proprietary Safety Reinforced Separator coated with ceramics, the semi-permeable insulating membranes separating the electrodes in the cells. This technology enhances mechanical and thermal characteristics of the battery cells thanks to the ceramic coatings and the significant abuse tolerance capability already provided by the manganese base.

Frankly, for my application, this difference is more significant than the lack of TMS.

 

[TonyWilliams]

This technology enhances mechanical and thermal characteristics of the battery cells thanks to the ceramic coatings and the significant abuse tolerance capability already provided by the manganese base.

Frankly, for my application, this difference is more significant than the lack of TMS.

So, Nissan took even more short cuts than just selling a car in Phoenix without TMS.

Guys, that REALLY looks amateurish.

 

[Levenkay]

I keep thinking the battery pack should include a thermoelectric device to move heat out of the battery.
May not have the capacity or efficiency of chilled coolent from a heat pump but if the thermoelectric ran 24/7 maybe the average temp could be reduced ten degrees.

I think what's wanted is some sort of controllable heat exchanger, probably using water as a heat transport fluid, that picks up heat from the battery cells and carries it to a ginormous heatsink block whose fins are exposed to the outside airstream on the bottom of the pack enclosure. When the circulating pump is off, the batteries revert to their present self-immolating behavior. When the pump is running, there might actually be a chance of keeping the pack within (say) thirty degrees F of ambient. Still not much help in Phoenix, but it would be very much appreciated for applications that want to QC more than once per day (taxicab or delivery drivers?)

 

[Nubo]

Make mine Red Velvet please.

But everybody knows that a chocolate cake is best, so why even make the others?

A cellular peptide cake..... with mint frosting. :twisted:

 

[smkettner]

So, Nissan took even more short cuts than just selling a car in Phoenix without TMS.

Guys, that REALLY looks amateurish.

Just a calculated business decision. No wonder Nissan was so quick to add the warranty and bring out the new battery.
I expect a lot of batteries will be swapped under warranty.

If we get stuck with an old style battery and a voucher for the high temp battery that should last a long long time.
Might just work out fine.

 

[Weatherman]

I expect a lot of batteries will be swapped under warranty.

I bet it's going to be in the hundreds, if not the thousands.

Although some of the Phoenix batteries seem to be getting replaced pretty quickly, it is disturbing to read the report from the Texas LEAF owner that he had reported his 4-bar loss back in July and still has no specific date for a replacement. No wonder the "official" number of replacements is so small. There may be many dozens still waiting in line.

I hope Nissan is prepared to deploy trucks with hot battery replacements along the Florida border next summer to start rolling south. That's when the flood of Florida warranty replacement requests will start coming in.

 

[jhm614]

Although some of the Phoenix batteries seem to be getting replaced pretty quickly, it is disturbing to read the report from the Texas LEAF owner that he had reported his 4-bar loss back in July and still has no specific date for a replacement. No wonder the "official" number of replacements is so small. There may be many dozens still waiting in line.

They gave me an me a date range of early to mid September. Got a call earlier this week that my battery has shipped and depending on when the dealer gets it, they might swap it out this week. (Not sure if the Holiday with come into play with this or not). At the Phoenix meeting, I got the impression that the 22 swaps included people that were still in line.

J.

 

[Weatherman]

That's good.

I went back and re-read the battery replacement thread and it looks like phxsmiley is still waiting, after providing the first request in July. I'm not sure what to think about that. Nissan is either slow to deploy replacements or the replacement demand is so high in Arizona that the current needs aren't being met.

 

[surfingslovak]

Make mine Red Velvet please.

But everybody knows that a chocolate cake is best, so why even make the others?

A cellular peptide cake..... with mint frosting. :twisted:

I would prefer a cheesecake :-D

But to go back to the original comparison this metaphor stood for, every chemistry on the market today has some type of downside. There really is no silver bullet. If long life and good thermal characteristics are needed, for applications without a TMS for example, then energy density will go down and the battery will add bulk and weight. Conversely, if high energy density is desirable, then cost goes up and the chemistry could prove to be more volatile, requiring a TMS for safety reasons.

I bet it's going to be in the hundreds, if not the thousands.

Yes, I'm under that impression also. It would also make sense that a new more heat-resistant battery was urgently needed. I believe that the old chemistry was fading three to four times faster than the projection given at market launch in 2010. Additionally, there are pronounced regional differences in battery life, which is something nobody aside from select few experts had expected.

 

[jhm614]

That's good.

I went back and re-read the battery replacement thread and it looks like phxsmiley is still waiting, after providing the first request in July. I'm not sure what to think about that. Nissan is either slow to deploy replacements or the replacement demand is so high in Arizona that the current needs aren't being met.

I think the delay might be one of 4 things:
1) Official Reason : the batteries are coming from Japan because the packaging / tool in TN only supports 2013 batteries, so a TN battery won't fit properly in my 2011 car. (this is gist of it, I might not have the details correct)
2) Reasonable theory #1 I've read that some battery component is in low supply -- (annodes out of china? I can't remember the details but I think I read it here). That might be affecting new car delivery and replacement pack availability.
3) Conspiracy theory #1 They are just waiting to get out of August so the replacement batteries will start off at lower ambient temp
4) Conspiracy theory #2 The replacement batteries have some sort of interim-interim chemistry (not the Hot Battery, but not the 2013 battery either) and are coming in from Japan.

It's probably just #1 but it's fun to put on my tin foil hat and consider #2, #3 & #4. Either way, I don't think the delay is caused by the high number of replacement requests -- simply because there doesn't seem to be ton of requests from MNL users.

J.

 

[JPWhite]

It would be interesting if the Volt battery already had a lot of the heat-resistant features of Nissan's proposed "hot battery", and yet GM still chose to put a TMS on the Volt.

Even the most low level TMS that Nissan can add to the car (without any modifications to the actual car), like an insulated battery box and then siphon some cool air from the existing air conditioner compressor (yes, not an original concept... see Mitsubishi iMiev).

Not sure the same level of battery safety can be assured if the battery pack is vented like the iMiev.

I can't remember who it was, but a guest on transport evolved bought an iMiev on the cheap that was flooded in the Hurricane Sandy natural disaster, hoping to be able to coax the battery pack back to life that was at zero volts. Upon opening the battery pack, sea water flooded out, the cells were trashed. The water got in through the vent used to help air cool the pack. Without a sealed pack enclosure a fire cannot be easily contained.

The LEAF's after Fukushima were very safe despite being tossed around by the tsunami thanks to sealed pack enclosure. By contrast some of the 300 Fiskars after Sandy burst into flames.

Nissan maybe a bit over cautious with safety, but that's fine by me.

The interesting thing I note from all this is that if the better (but more expensive) separators were available during the design of the existing packs prior to the release of the LEAF, Nissan may have shot themselves (and their customers) in the foot by going the cheaper route. *IF* it can be shown that they chose a cheaper separator rather than use a superior product then do LEAF owners have a claim on the 8yr/100,000 mile warranty for poor workmanship? Not a open and close case because the manufacture maybe faultless, with 'only' the design flawed. I smell a class action if it surfaces they cheaped-out on the battery. Maybe the 5yr/60,000 retroactive warranty was more legally CYA motivated than customer relations motivated. Stranger things have happened at sea.