What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

[hodad66]

 

[eHelmholtz]

I think no one has a problem with the Volt as long as the public knows they are getting a Plug-In Hybrid instead of a BEV.

Yes and to make Scott happy - it's a plug-in hybrid with an electric motor that allows strict short-range BEV operation as well as an ICE for regular ICE vehicle mode ;-)

 

[TomT]

I might have bought a Volt but for the following reasons (in order of importance to me):

1) It needs 50 percent better EV-only range to be practical for my needs. Otherwise, I'd spent too much time on gas at only mediocre mileage. This was far and away the biggie for me!
2) No HOV lane access.
3) Fear of GM's historical first year problems with new vehicles and designs.
4) Having to deal with Chevy's predatory Volt dealers. The Leaf order system was far from perfect but still also far more civilized.
5) Price.
6) GM's historical arrogance.

I've also met quite a few BEV enthusiasts that would buy a Volt, if it was anyone but GM making it. You can blame it on a certain movie, or the long memory of EV geeks.

 

[Packet]

1) It needs 50 percent better EV-only range to be practical for my needs. Otherwise, I'd spent too much time on gas at only mediocre mileage. This was far and away the biggie for me!

Me as well. My longest regular commute comes out to about 60 miles round trip. I can do that on the LEAF no problem; with a Volt, I'd either need gas or to stop for a charge partway through.

If I still drove up to Vancouver or down to Portland on a regular basis, however, I'd probably have considered the Volt more seriously.

4) Having to deal with Chevy's predatory Volt dealers. The Leaf order system was far from perfect but still also far more civilized.

Bolded text may qualify as the understatement of the year. It seems to be cleared up now, but boy, I remember the howling fury towards the ordering system 8 months ago!

 

[eHelmholtz]

If I still drove up to Vancouver or down to Portland on a regular basis, however, I'd probably have considered the Volt more seriously.

You can also go down to Vancouver USA ;-)

 

[defiancecp]

Honestly, if (for example) mazda made the volt, it would probably be my next vehicle.

My wife's WRX is passing the decade mark now, and I figure it's probably got 3-4 more years in it... So now we're thinking very generally about a strategy for its replacement.

We're *almost* to the point that we make so few long trips that occasional gas rentals would be most economical for our home, but maybe not (still need to sit down and do the math).

But with the Volt's 'available for' price dropping a little bit (and leaf's rising), the point where the volt is more economical than the occasional rental isn't too far off.

At this point it definitely would be a great option to have a leaf and a volt as our family cars....

Unfortunately, my wife would never go for it. She passionately opposes getting any GM car due to past experiences

So nevermind

Incidentally I was pretty disappointed to see the plug-in prius so badly implemented Here's hoping somebody gets a long-range, primarily-electric, AFFORDABLE car put together. A $37k (actual walk-away-from-the-dealer price before rebate) volt from a non-GM manufacturer would make me a pretty much guaranteed buyer

 

[Herm]

A $37k (actual walk-away-from-the-dealer price before rebate) volt from a non-GM manufacturer would make me a pretty much guaranteed buyer

Is that New GM or Old GM?.. A 2012 Volt starts at $39k and that includes shipping fees.. so not too far off from your $37k. Its starting its second year so it should be fairly well debugged by now.

The company has been cleaned out, its nice and fresh now. They paid for the EV-1 atrocity.

http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveEV]

Incidentally I was pretty disappointed to see the plug-in prius so badly implemented

What's wrong with the PIP and what did you expect?

 

[TomT]

If only I truly believed that...

The company has been cleaned out, its nice and fresh now. They paid for the EV-1 atrocity.

 

[defiancecp]

Incidentally I was pretty disappointed to see the plug-in prius so badly implemented

What's wrong with the PIP and what did you expect?

Eh, just that the EV range is so small - even my relatively short commute would hit gasoline usage almost every day, however small... I'm pretty adamant that I only want to use gasoline on rare occasions when I need to make long trips. I was just hoping for a bit longer range. And yeah, you're probably right that my phrasing is not fair; maybe it's implemented fine based on its design goals, but those goals put it outside of what I'm looking for


As for volt pricing, that's my point - the $39k price tag is getting dangerously close to the point where I'd consider it a good option! But I'm pretty sure the wife would veto me putting her in a Chevy, unfortunately. Regardless of whether the company has cleaned up and improved, perception is tough to overcome you know?


All I was really hoping to say with the random spiel in the first place is that when I first looked at the economics of the volt I was rather dissappointed, but it seems to be moving to address all the concerns I had quite effectively. Looks like it's really turning into a great option.

(then I strayed into a stream-of-consciousness ramble about my wife's preferences and other ev's and tea in china )

 

[evnow]

I believe it's counter-productive to the EV revolution/evolution for us to snipe at each other's cars just because of how we feel about each other's car's manufacturers.

Completely agree. I think it would even be great of more Volt owners posted here or Leaf owners posted their. Generally clears up some of the perceptions.

 

[evnow]

I think it is enormously presumptive to see "we all" get that". My post are not to some of the very in-tune veterans like yourself. I am 100% sure that many (new comers and some veterans and lurkers from other car forums) do not understand the unique characteristic of the Volt that the the ICE does not come on under load and does not come on at a particular MPH (ie. ~62 in the new Plug-In-Prius/PIP, ~?? CMax-Energi). Peace out.

Could be.

My main point was - a lot of Volt onwers don't seem to understand that BEVs are perfect for multi-car households. Not sure why.

 

[walterbays]

My main point was - a lot of Volt onwers don't seem to understand that BEVs are perfect for multi-car households. Not sure why.

It probably doesn't matter.

If you watched your daily mileage obsessively for months before buying (e.g., while waiting on Nissan's reservation list then you'd be pretty certain an 80-90 mile range would be ample and you'd start with a BEV, later replacing the second ICE with a PHEV. Otherwise you'd hedge your bets and start with a PHEV. After months of driving that car, and noticing that its 35-40 mile range is usually plenty and when it wasn't then 80-90 miles would be, then you later replace the second ICE with a BEV.

Either way there will probably be a lot of BEV/PHEV households a few years from now.

 

[evnow]

It probably doesn't matter.

Actually it does - because the popular press doesn't seem to understand that either. They all write as if we just have individuals in this country - not families with multiple cars.

 

[planet4ever]

I think no one has a problem with the Volt as long as the public knows they are getting a Plug-In Hybrid instead of a BEV.

I have a problem with your statement, TRONZ. There is a middle ground, and the Volt does occupy it. The plug-in Prius is a PHEV. So far as I know, the following statements are true, ignoring all-electric range limits, but I'm sure someone will correct me if they are not:

• A PIP cannot go 70 mph on a freeway without using gas.
• If a PIP is stuck behind a truck on a two-lane road, and the driver puts his foot to the floor to get around it, it will use gas.
• If you climb a steep hill at 60 mph in a PIP, you will use gas.
• You can do all these things in a Volt without using gas.
• And of course you can do all of them in a LEAF without using gas.

In fact, within their respective electric ranges, it is very difficult to think of anything the LEAF can do that the Volt can't also do without using gas.
<Well, other than plug into a Quick Charge station, but I doubt if you want to claim that an SV model LEAF is not a BEV.>

Would I call a Volt a BEV? No, I wouldn't, but it's not an PHEV, either. It's an EREV.

Learn to live with it, TRONZ.

Ray

 

[Herm]

You zealots are dancing a conga all over the head of a pin.. all three Leaf, Volt and PIP are electric vehicles, and you can use them to motor about without using gas.

 

[walterbays]

You zealots are dancing a conga all over the head of a pin.. all three Leaf, Volt and PIP are electric vehicles, and you can use them to motor about without using gas.

Yes.

The most important thing is reducing the use of gas. Leaf does it best. Volt does great. A plug-in Prius or even a regular Prius or a Civic Hybrid do well. When you trade in your VW Jetta (34 MPG) for a Nissan Leaf you save 353 gallons of gas per year. But when someone else buys your trade-in VW Jetta to replace their Nissan Armada (15 MPG) they save 447 gallons of gas. (@ 12,000 miles/year)

If you have a second ICE car for occasional longer trips, you're using gas. If you rent ICE cars, if you fly on airplanes, if you have pizza delivered, if you buy groceries that were delivered by truck, you're using gas. By driving a Leaf you're using a lot less gas than you might otherwise have done, and you're helping create the conditions to lead more people to choose a Leaf, and to choose a Volt or PIP.

 

[Herm]

The most important thing is reducing the use of gas. Leaf does it best.

Walter, if your daily commute is 12 miles, what difference is there between a Leaf and a PIP?.. its all a matter of choosing the right tool for the job. There are cases in wich owning a Leaf would consume more oil than owning a PIP.

 

[davewill]

The most important thing is reducing the use of gas. Leaf does it best.

Walter, if your daily commute is 12 miles, what difference is there between a Leaf and a PIP?.. its all a matter of choosing the right tool for the job. There are cases in wich owning a Leaf would consume more oil than owning a PIP.

What point is there to saying the LEAF and PIP are the same, so long as you stay within limits the LEAF doesn't have? To my way of thinking that makes the LEAF better at avoiding gasoline use. That doesn't mean that for an individual, the PHEV might not be a better choice...especially if it allows that person to avoid owning a second car. Of course for an individual that drives a big car pool to work every day, a mini-van might be the greenest choice...

As far as the whole "EREV" thing, I just don't see a clear enough difference between that and a PHEV to be worth creating the new classification. If the next gen PIP can run at 70 mph on battery, does it then become an EREV? Or does it need to get a certain e-range? The way I see it, the car either has a gasoline engine, or it doesn't.

 

[Smidge204]

Walter, if your daily commute is 12 miles, what difference is there between a Leaf and a PIP?.. its all a matter of choosing the right tool for the job. There are cases in wich owning a Leaf would consume more oil than owning a PIP.

Even if you never drive more than a mile a week, the Volt will use gasoline. It will NEED gasoline. It will need gasoline for at least three different reasons completely unrelated to actual driving. I don't know many details about the PIP yet but since it has an ICE it's a safe bet it, too, will NEED gasoline. Likely for very similar reasons.

It's all fine and good to reduce our need for fossil fuels, but we should be pushing for the elimination of fossil fuels even if (or especially if?) that goal is ultimately unattainable. Patting yourself on the back for buying a hybrid is, to put things in an only slightly hyperbolic analogy, like congratulating yourself for only beating your child once a month instead of every day. Yeah, I suppose progress is progress, but... :|

As far as the whole "EREV" thing, I just don't see a clear enough difference between that and a PHEV to be worth creating the new classification.

GM's marketing department does. When people say "Hybrid" they think "Prius." GM needs to fabricate a new label for their vehicle to set it apart from the competition. It's a valid concern, IMHO, because most people are not going to understand the difference between a parallel hybrid like the Prius and a serial hybrid like the Volt.

It's been my experience that GM employees get visibly irritated when you call the Volt a hybrid. :lol: If they work in PR/Marketing they'll usually spend at least a minute or two going over their talking points.
=Smidge=