What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

[shay]

I like this game! Can I play?!

10,000 miles so far this year and used 0 (ZERO) gallons of gas!

400 miles last week and *used* 0 (zero!) gals. of gas.

I love both of these!

 

[scottf200]

I like this game! Can I play?! 10,000 miles so far this year and used 0 (ZERO) gallons of gas!

That is pretty funny actually. :lol:

Of course to play the game you have to include all vehicles that you drive and not just the Leaf. Right?

Owner (LEAF used + ICE vehicle used)
=
Owner (Volt 40 EV miles + Volt ICE miles)

 

[edatoakrun]

I like this game! Can I play?! 10,000 miles so far this year and used 0 (ZERO) gallons of gas!

That is pretty funny actually. :lol:

Of course to play the game you have to include all vehicles that you drive and not just the Leaf. Right?

Owner (LEAF used + ICE vehicle used)
=
Owner (Volt 40 EV miles + Volt ICE miles)

Gee, Since I got my LEAF, I'm getting close to 1,000 MPG!

No wonder the Voltiacs like their "special" MPG math...

 

[AndyH]

I like this game! Can I play?! 10,000 miles so far this year and used 0 (ZERO) gallons of gas!

That is pretty funny actually. :lol:

Of course to play the game you have to include all vehicles that you drive and not just the Leaf. Right?

And you assume they're not?

Since I've been driving electric daily, my old VW is needing more maintenance because it's NOT getting used!

If you go over there to avail yourself of the knowledge font that it is, PLEASE be considerate and respectful! The vast majority of readers and responders there are Leaf owners or want to be Leaf owners. Please don't go over there and try to sell Volts, or try to convince everyone or anyone that the Volt is superior this way or that way. It's just rude to do so (and since the two cars service different market and user needs, probably stupid as well).

From Here
Thank you Rusty - very well said.

 

[scottf200]

I like this game! Can I play?! 10,000 miles so far this year and used 0 (ZERO) gallons of gas!

That is pretty funny actually. :lol: Of course to play the game you have to include all vehicles that you drive and not just the Leaf. Right?

And you assume they're not? Since I've been driving electric daily, my old VW is needing more maintenance because it's NOT getting used!

If you go over there to avail yourself of the knowledge font that it is, PLEASE be considerate and respectful! The vast majority of readers and responders there are Leaf owners or want to be Leaf owners. Please don't go over there and try to sell Volts, or try to convince everyone or anyone that the Volt is superior this way or that way. It's just rude to do so (and since the two cars service different market and user needs, probably stupid as well).

From Here Thank you Rusty - very well said.

Both of your remarks are quite a stretch to put me down, AndyH-PiP. Several Leaf owners remind other Leaf owners that many have and use an ICE based 2nd car. I have ZERO interesting in trying to convert a Leaf owner. I'm only trying to make sure the Volt is not misrepresented/miscompared which is often the case. Hopefully the vast majority of folks can see that in my post. Certainly there are several of you that dislike me being here and doing that. I like most of Rusty post but he can misinterpret peoples actions as much as anyone sometimes. No worries.

We are all just snowflakes hoping to be an avalanche on different sides of the mountain.

I'm happy to get many positive PMs from reasonable Leaf owners who realize what my reasonable goal is.

Nissan LEAF and Chevy Volt Target Different Drivers
By Presidio Marketing | November 14th, 2011
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6824" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

P.S. I've added you (AndyH) to my MNL foe / ignore forum list so your post are suppressed and I no longer see them. You seem to only have one purpose in your post and have done so repeatingly. Please respond in kind. Thank you.

 

[Rusty]

If you go over there to avail yourself of the knowledge font that it is, PLEASE be considerate and respectful! The vast majority of readers and responders there are Leaf owners or want to be Leaf owners. Please don't go over there and try to sell Volts, or try to convince everyone or anyone that the Volt is superior this way or that way. It's just rude to do so (and since the two cars service different market and user needs, probably stupid as well).

Thank you Rusty - very well said.

I can only make suggestions, as I won't even attempt to censor speech in either forum. But it seems to me that if you're invited to a neighbor's for a party, it's awfully d*mn rude to walk in and declare "Hey have you noticed my grass is *so* much greener than yours!" when you're neighbor's xeriscaping is beyond doubt the best in town. In the least I'd think such behavior boorish. Then again, as another guest to the party I'd think if the host responded with chest thumping elitism that might be boorish as well.

Let's just all get drunk, have a good time, and wonder in the morning where all the lamp shades went

 

[voltcrazy]

I read everything on both MNL and gm-volt forums daily, and enjoy all discussions on electric cars.

We are all on the same team here, trying to show the world that we can reduce dependence on oil AND have fun with cool technology at the same time.

 

[Smidge204]

I do try to address points made in response to me, so sorry if this post slipped through the cracks... this thread moves fast!

On the other hand, the scenario I came up with is exactly in line with some Volt supporter's arguments in favor of it: "If my driving habits are such, I'll never even use any gas." Well if your driving habits are such, why are you even buying a car with a gas tank?

I think the argument is "I'll hardly ever use gas", not "I'll never use gas", and we are buying the car with the gas tank for our 10% non-EV miles, because 10% != 0%.

I acknowledged that not all Volt supporters (not necessarily owners) make the "I'll never use gas" claim, but certainly I've seen it more than once. Even in this thread you'll find people claiming "not a drop of gas" at least for various hypothetical situations.

+120 gas miles, that's about 3 gallons. A Prius would have taken about 4.6. If I had kept my old Civic and bought a Leaf, that would have been 7 gallons. This extra 110 miles of EV driving obliterates the extra 2.5 miles of EV local driving a Leaf would have given me over the Volt so far in my 2.5 months of ownership (from maintenance mode kicking in, plus one time where I exceeded my Volt range by 2 miles).

Again you have to go case by case... in your case it seems like the Volt is a good fit, although you leave out some details about typical non-visiting-mother driving so I'm not sure. They ultimate key is how often you make those extended trips and how often, if ever, you exceed the Volt's all-electric range (and by how much).

For example, a hypothetical Volt owner drives 60 miles per day normally - 40 CD and 20 CS, burning 0.57 gallons of gas at 35MPG average or 1.14 gallons round-trip (assuming charging is available at both ends). Once every other month, Mr. Owner visits his mother who lives 100 miles away; he drives 40 CD and 60 CD for a total of 1.71 gallons burned for the trip (3.42 round trip). For argument's sake let's say he stays the night and does 30 miles local driving while there, which are all electric and use no gas.

So over the course of two months, assuming 5 days a seek of standard driving habits (weekends he manages <40 miles and thus no gas is burned), Mr Owner has burned 78 days * 1.14 gallons plus 3.42 gallons for the longer trip: 92.34 gallons in two months.

The Leaf can handle his typical driving no problem (again endpoint charging is available), but not the semi-monthly trip to mom's house. Let's say he rents or borrows a normal ICE vehicle that gets a modest 25MPG. We're looking at 4 gallons to travel the 100 miles - 8 for a round trip - plus 1.2 gallons for 30 miles local. 78 days * 0 gallons plus 8 gallons round trip plus 1.2 gallons local driving = 9.2 gallons in two months.

ICE Owner (Baseline): 9,590 miles total travel @ 25MPG = 383.60 gallons burned.

Volt owner: 92.34 gallons in 2 months, 9,590 miles total travel, 103.86 MPG bulk average.

Leaf owner + ICE backup: 9.2 gallons in 2 months, 9,590 miles total travel, 1042.39 MPG bulk average.

Strictly hypothetical, of course, but do you think this is a far-fetched scenario? Did I screw up my math somewhere, which I've been known to do?

Take a look at this guy's driving habits. 56% all-electric driving, which means he should be doing ~65miles per day or so. But notice on his graph the sudden jumps?

For this particular driver, I don't think you zoomed in close enough on his graph to get a clear picture of what is going on, since his mileage is so high 100 mile jumps aren't so visible.

I freely admit that I chose that graph because of the obvious "outlier" long trips and did not scrutinize the data that closely.

But looking at it, there are quite a few periods of several days where he uses no CS mode at all. Zooming in month by month there are a lot of periods where the gas miles portion is flat, and where it jumps the total miles does not seem to increase more than ~110 miles that often, which could be two 55 mile trips and potentially doable in a Leaf. Not enough data!

Do you know if it's possible to get the raw numbers from that site? CSV format or something? Purely academic but it'd be interesting to so more in-depth studies.

If their daily driving is < 40 miles, what difference does it make, why do you care?

I find this comment ironic given the very first comment quoted here.

I care because if you never exceed the Volt's electric range, it still burns gas. If your driving habits are such, why are you even buying a car with a gas tank?

And yes one could rent an ICE for longer trips. But it's inconvenient to have to deal with pickup & delivery. It's often difficult, more expensive to rent a car with better gas mileage than a Volt. And on a long trip, many would prefer the comfort & familiarity of one's own car, with all your favorite XM stations programmed in, familiar iPod interface, etc.

All fair points (I think Enterprise will still pick you up at your house, though) but you can also factor in multi-vehicle homes. I'd imagine one Leaf + one Volt would cover all but the most extreme situations.

Let's just all get drunk, have a good time, and wonder in the morning where all the lamp shades went

Great, now we get to argue if the designated driver is a Volt or Leaf owner! :lol:
=Smidge=

 

[davewill]

You're just not understanding that the Volt or the BYD is a superset of the Leaf. They have everything that a Leaf has plus they have the means of generating electricity. Generally speaking the order of complexity of the cars would be (1) Volt (2) BYD (3) Leaf. In some ways the Prius or the Fusion are as complex as the Volt but as parallel hybrids they have a completely different architecture.

No, I understand perfectly, I just don't put the same significance on it that you do. GM might be closer to an EV design with the Volt, but that doesn't mean the Volt is an EV. I simply see no need for it's own classification. Electric only = EV. Gas (or other power source) + electric = hybrid. Add a plug and you have a plug-in hybrid. Simple and easy for anyone to understand. Being a serial hybrid is a design feature, not a new class of car.

BTW, I already said the PIP would kick in with gas power under heavy acceleration or high speed. Doesn't change the fact that it will run all electric if driven within limits. I still maintain that all PHEVs will use primarily electric until exhausted, then switch to a more traditional hybrid mode. Not a unique idea. Indeed, I would have been shocked if the Volt had NOT worked as it does. I do ding Toyota for doing as poor a job as they did on the PIP.

 

[TomT]

The Leaf IS the only vehicle I drive.

I like this game! Can I play?! 10,000 miles so far this year and used 0 (ZERO) gallons of gas!

That is pretty funny actually. :lol:
Of course to play the game you have to include all vehicles that you drive and not just the Leaf. Right?

 

[TRONZ]

The Leaf IS the only vehicle I drive.

I like this game! Can I play?! 10,000 miles so far this year and used 0 (ZERO) gallons of gas!

That is pretty funny actually. :lol:
Of course to play the game you have to include all vehicles that you drive and not just the Leaf. Right?

Ditto. Passed 10K miles today without ever having to insert weasel words like "almost", "mostly", "sometimes", "maybe", "occasionally" to explain how it uses gas. Priceless.

 

[SanDust]

I still maintain that all PHEVs will use primarily electric until exhausted, then switch to a more traditional hybrid mode. Not a unique idea. Indeed, I would have been shocked if the Volt had NOT worked as it does. I do ding Toyota for doing as poor a job as they did on the PIP.

Of course a Volt or a BYD is a hybrid. Your mistake is assuming that "hybrid" and "electric" are mutually exclusive categories. A hybrid is a vehicle which uses more than one source of propulsion. It doesn't have to use gas -- it could for example use a battery and a fuel cell. An electric vehicle on the other hand is one that can go through a drive cycle solely on electric power. The Volt and the BYD can do that. The Prius can't. It's that simple. It's also the reason that while you can say "the Volt is a hybrid" but you can't say "the Volt is a hybrid just like the Prius".

The criticism of Toyota for "doing a bad job" on the PIP isn't justified. If you understood how the Prius worked you'd know it wasn't true.

Out of curiosity, you keep saying "traditional hybrid mode". What do you mean by this? The Prius, the Volt, and the BYD all operate differently after the battery is depleted. So which one of the three would operate in the "traditional" manner?

 

[SanDust]

Ditto. Passed 10K miles today without ever having to insert weasel words like "almost", "mostly", "sometimes", "maybe", "occasionally" to explain how it uses gas. Priceless.

If you truly never use gas to go anywhere then you must lead a sad and limited life. No trains? No planes? No rides in ICE vehicles?

Believe me there is an interesting world outside a 50 mile radius of your house. You need to get out because sometimes more really is more.

 

[TomT]

Clearly the discussion revolves around personal automotive vehicles, not commercial trains, boats, airplanes, space shuttles, buses or the like.

Ditto. Passed 10K miles today without ever having to insert weasel words like "almost", "mostly", "sometimes", "maybe", "occasionally" to explain how it uses gas. Priceless.

If you truly never use gas to go anywhere then you must lead a sad and limited life. No trains? No planes? No rides in ICE vehicles?

 

[davewill]

... An electric vehicle on the other hand is one that can go through a drive cycle solely on electric power. The Volt and the BYD can do that. The Prius can't. It's that simple. It's also the reason that while you can say "the Volt is a hybrid" but you can't say "the Volt is a hybrid just like the Prius". ...

Sigh. The PIP CAN complete a drive cycle without using gas. It is just more limited than the Volt. And I never said the Volt just was like the Prius. I just said they are both PHEVs, and I see no value in creating some special "EREV" category.

... Out of curiosity, you keep saying "traditional hybrid mode". What do you mean by this? The Prius, the Volt, and the BYD all operate differently after the battery is depleted. So which one of the three would operate in the "traditional" manner?

Using the gas engine to recharge the battery while propelling the car at least part of the time on the stored electric power. Whether the gas engine also drives the wheels directly is design dependent.

 

[AndyH]

I still maintain that all PHEVs will use primarily electric until exhausted, then switch to a more traditional hybrid mode. Not a unique idea. Indeed, I would have been shocked if the Volt had NOT worked as it does. I do ding Toyota for doing as poor a job as they did on the PIP.

Of course a Volt or a BYD is a hybrid. Your mistake is assuming that "hybrid" and "electric" are mutually exclusive categories. A hybrid is a vehicle which uses more than one source of propulsion. It doesn't have to use gas -- it could for example use a battery and a fuel cell. An electric vehicle on the other hand is one that can go through a drive cycle solely on electric power. The Volt and the BYD can do that. The Prius can't. It's that simple. It's also the reason that while you can say "the Volt is a hybrid" but you can't say "the Volt is a hybrid just like the Prius".

The criticism of Toyota for "doing a bad job" on the PIP isn't justified. If you understood how the Prius worked you'd know it wasn't true.

Out of curiosity, you keep saying "traditional hybrid mode". What do you mean by this? The Prius, the Volt, and the BYD all operate differently after the battery is depleted. So which one of the three would operate in the "traditional" manner?

SanDust - how do you categorize the many varieties of vehicles that wear the hybrid label? Like the 'stop-start' or 'mild hybrid' that simply uses a combination starter motor/generator? Or the next phase that is basically start/stop with some regen/boost?

It seems that many of the arguments here are trying to describe why the Volt or other tech is 'good' then trying to work backward to a vehicle drive category. But the categories are already defined and the system works just fine!

We have ICE, EV, and Hybrid. Hybrids can be serial, parallel, mild (with other variants), and also plug-in. The plug in Prius is a PHEV-20. The Volt is a PHEV-40. The Leaf is a pure electric. Yes - the Volt is unique in that the EV subsystem can provide full performance (electric motor primary, ICE assist) while the Prius is ICE primary and electric assist.

Dunno guys - I don't see why we have to make this so much more difficult than it is. :?

 

[scottf200]

The Leaf IS the only vehicle I drive.

My honest and sincere opinion of that is I'm amazed and impressed.

Clearly the discussion revolves around personal automotive vehicles, not commercial trains, boats, airplanes, space shuttles, buses or the like.

If you truly never use gas to go anywhere then you must lead a sad and limited life. No trains? No planes? No rides in ICE vehicles?

It seems his question about "No rides in ICE vehicles?" is still valid.

P.S. I've added you (TomT) to my MNL foe / ignore forum list so your post are suppressed and I no longer see them. You seem to only have one purpose in your post and have done so repeatingly. Please respond in kind. Thank you.

 

[AndyH]

<TomT snipped due to quote limit>
That is pretty funny actually. :lol: Of course to play the game you have to include all vehicles that you drive and not just the Leaf. Right?

And you assume they're not? Since I've been driving electric daily, my old VW is needing more maintenance because it's NOT getting used!

If you go over there to avail yourself of the knowledge font that it is, PLEASE be considerate and respectful! The vast majority of readers and responders there are Leaf owners or want to be Leaf owners. Please don't go over there and try to sell Volts, or try to convince everyone or anyone that the Volt is superior this way or that way. It's just rude to do so (and since the two cars service different market and user needs, probably stupid as well).

From Here Thank you Rusty - very well said.

Both of your remarks are quite a stretch to put me down, AndyH-PiP.

Still in character - good on ya! I'm pleased to know that I'm on someone's ignore list - THANK YOU!

As you can see from some of the posts above, however, there might be something to my point that really isn't about you.

 

[stephent]

I acknowledged that not all Volt supporters (not necessarily owners) make the "I'll never use gas" claim, but certainly I've seen it more than once. Even in this thread you'll find people claiming "not a drop of gas" at least for various hypothetical situations.

The people claiming "not a drop of gas" are mainly trying to clear up misconceptions that some number of Leaf fanatics have that it is still using gas in situations like high freeway speeds or brisk acceleration, hallmarks of the Prius but not of the Volt. They aren't claiming that they never use gas, ever, which is obviously untrue. They are just claiming that in the vast majority of their driving, their gas use = gas use in a leaf = zero, and that Leaf owners who trumpet purity are being disingenuous if they still own & use an ICE car or still rent an ICE car for their long trips, or get rides from someone with an ICE in situations where previously they might have driven themselves. Only a very small percentage of Leaf owners are willing to never take long trips, or spend long trips trying to get from one charging station to another, spending hours twiddling their thumbs while topping off their charge.

They ultimate key is how often you make those extended trips and how often, if ever, you exceed the Volt's all-electric range (and by how much).

I conceded that if I had regular daily driving in the 40-80 mile range, a Leaf would be much more attractive, and I might well have bought one. But I don't. I live just north of San Jose. That Leaf sweet spot, for round trip drive w/o recharge, basically takes me to San Mateo one way, Livermore in the other. If I had a job in one of those places, a Leaf would work out better, although in reality if I were to get a job in one of those places I'd probably look to move closer if it looked to be a long term situation. As it is, I probably take trips to places of that distance only once every 3-4 months. Where I do go more often is San Francisco, which is 45-50 miles. I can get there in a Leaf, but can't get back without a recharge. It's fine if there happens to be a charge station within reasonable walking distance of the destination, but very often there isn't and I'd have to ICE it. And if there is a charge station, really the Volt can cover a large % of the trip on EV anyway.

For example, a hypothetical Volt owner drives 60 miles per day normally - 40 CD and 20 CS, burning 0.57 gallons of gas at 35MPG average or 1.14 gallons round-trip (assuming charging is available at both ends).

This is a *120 mile per day* scenario, not a 60 mile per day, if you are assuming charging at both ends and 1.14 gallons per day. Very, very few people have 120 mile round trip commutes. That's 30k commuting-only miles a year, when average mileage is something like 12k miles total driving! I totally concede that if you have workplace charging and 120 mile daily driving, that a Leaf saves a ton of gas. But this is an awfully small chunk of the driving population. Something like 75% can get by on Volt range, *without* workplace charging. If you are in the 40-80 round trip without midpoint charging, or 80-160 with, then sure, a Leaf can be advantageous. But that population is <<< the population in the 0-40 range where there is basically no difference. For the people in the 0-40 range, it's more a question of whether they are attracted to the Leaf's lower price, and somewhat lower maintenance requirements, or they'd rather have the Volt's long-range capabilities. Plus other factors like aesthetics, 5th seat/cargo volume in the Leaf, driving/handling characteristics etc.

Also, for long trip scenarios, one should arguably use the 40 mpg highway for the Volt, not the 35 mpg city.

So over the course of two months, assuming 5 days a seek of standard driving habits (weekends he manages <40 miles and thus no gas is burned), Mr Owner has burned 78 days * 1.14 gallons plus 3.42 gallons for the longer trip: 92.34 gallons in two months.

Uh, how do you get 78 working days in 2 months? Heck, how do you get 78 days in 2 months?

Strictly hypothetical, of course, but do you think this is a far-fetched scenario? Did I screw up my math somewhere, which I've been known to do?

Yes far-fetched, and yes.

But looking at it, there are quite a few periods of several days where he uses no CS mode at all. Zooming in month by month there are a lot of periods where the gas miles portion is flat, and where it jumps the total miles does not seem to increase more than ~110 miles that often, which could be two 55 mile trips and potentially doable in a Leaf. Not enough data!

The 100+ mile trips I saw with this driver don't show > 40 mile EV driving, so a reasonable presumption is that convenient charging was *not* available, and it's "not doable" in a Leaf, not "potentially doable".

Do you know if it's possible to get the raw numbers from that site? CSV format or something? Purely academic but it'd be interesting to so more in-depth studies.

Only available in CSV format for your own car, not others, currently.

If their daily driving is < 40 miles, what difference does it make, why do you care?

I find this comment ironic given the very first comment quoted here.

I care because if you never exceed the Volt's electric range, it still burns gas. If your driving habits are such, why are you even buying a car with a gas tank?

For the non-daily driving, duh. The gas burned from never exceeding the electric range, enforced by the maintenance mode, is ~0.6 gallons a year, and that's only it you truly never exceed the range. A Volt driver who only takes 4 long trips a year would only burn half that, 0.3 gallons in maintenance mode. This is totally insignificant compared to the non-daily driving; I'd suspect even the most extreme Volt owners would expect to go through at least one 9 gallon tank a year. If they are only using 1 gallon a year, then I am in agreement with you, they arguably should have gotten a Leaf. The average Volt driver appears to be going through about one tank a month. Jay Leno appears to be an exception, but he purposely set out to make it a whole year on the dealer supplied tank, plus he has a zillion other cars to choose from.

 

[TomT]

I consider being on his list a Red Badge of courage! If only I had known it was that easy to get there! :lol:
I'll not return the favor however as I do find his rants and diatribe amusing from time to time...

Oh, and to answer his inane question, yes I did ride in a large ICE vehicle at least once or twice when a bunch of us car pooled somewhere. I also took a bus along with a USCGA group to an outing in Arizona. And I've also flown a couple of places. I hardly consider those disqualifying however as I think the intent of the question was vehicles that one drives personally...

Update: I forgot the 3 week cruise we took in June or the train ride from Williams to the Grand Canyon and back in October. Both of those burned copious diesel!

P.S. I've added you (TomT) to my MNL foe / ignore forum list so your post are suppressed and I no longer see them. You seem to only have one purpose in your post and have done so repeatingly. Please respond in kind. Thank you.