Which of these used leafs should I buy? [resolved]

[gor29]

Edit:
I ended up going for the $9500 for 2012 SL in blue with 31k miles and 11 bars. It's just under 3 years old, and for a good price (7% less than KBB "fair"). If anyone is interested or looking for a similar leaf in SF bay area, I can PM the broker's info.

All options appear to have been used in moderate climate (40F-85F year round, occasionally 30F-40F lows or 85F-95F highs):

Edit: I added 2 more better options on page 2. These were the original options:

$9,900 2011 SL with 26k miles, appears to have 12 bars. sold by small broker?
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ctd/4999480840.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$9,900 2011 SL with 51k miles, appears to have 10 bars. extended warranty does not cover battery. sold by original owner.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/4997304194.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$12,000 2013 S with 15k miles, appears to have 12 bars, also seems to have DC quick charger, 6.6 kW charger and backup camera. sold by a dealer.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/ctd/5002657074.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I can only charge at 120V overnight at home, so fast charging wont be useful except for future resale. This also limits daily commute range to ~40 miles so as long as the degraded 2011 leaf capacity is more than this it shouldn't matter (except for resale?).

It's estimated here that the 2011's would be worth $1000-$3000 in 2019: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19683&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the 2013 would fare the same, is it worth saving $2100? These are also list prices too -- at what price for each would it be considered worth it? How should I check if the 12 bars are real?

My goal is the lowest total cost of ownership over the next 4+ years. Let's assume that additional range (beyond 40 miles), or additional features don't matter except for resale. Thanks in advance.

 

[Reddy]

I've replied in your other thread, now I can see you are looking at used in SF, so that helps with the temps and climate. You should estimate whether you will want to (or need to) charge away from home. Most Level 2 stations charge by the hour, so the 2011 is penalized (only pulls 3.8 KW vs 6.6 KW for the 2013). Thus, I would go with the 2013 with QC+6.6KW L2. The faster speed won't help if charging on L1 overnight, but it will mean better chances for gaining electrons when out in the world.

As for the battery health, read up on the LeafSpy (lots of threads) and get one of the bluetooth OBDII readers. I have the free version, but many recommend the very reasonably priced pay version. The device is invaluable for visualizing battery health and state of charge.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285&hilit=LeafSpy

Also, spend some time reading in the battery degradation and class action threads. If the 2011-2012 battery degrades to 8 bars before 5 yrs and 60,000 mi, then you "may" be able to get a brand new one. Make sure the car hasn't been flagged as having "opted out". This has mostly affected cars in higher temperature areas than SF (although some of the warmer valleys may generate similar temperature-induced degradation).
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&hilit=battery+degradation
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18905&hilit=class+action

 

[LeftieBiker]

Unless price is the highest consideration, I see no reason not to get the 2013. It will not only go farther and charge faster on L-2, it also likely has somewhat better battery chemistry than the earlier version. If you factor resale value into cost of ownership, the 2013 will sell more easily and for more money.

 

[Wennfred]

I would go with the Red 2011 SL, that's what I have and those Leaf were built right out of Japan, the 2013 had issues since it was built in Tenn. The Silver 2013 does have less miles so you can get more miles out of it, have the dealer run a history and ensure it doesn't have the Battery Warrenty Opt Out code, it's something like B033. With that code you won't be able to get the replacement battery in warrenty.

At 26000 miles you should have 1 to 2 capacity bars down, that Red 2011 must of just had the Firmware update done since it still shows all 12 bars. Those will drop fast within 4 months.

I would get the Red 2011 SL and drop a new battery in it later. Always go for the DCQC, you will get to use those 240 Volt EVSE stations around town.

Offer 8000.00 for the 2011 Red SL, if he says no, then walk away & get the Silver 2013 one, those Leaf will sit on the lot for a while.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

At 26000 miles you should have 1 to 2 capacity bars down, that Red 2011 must of just had the Firmware update done since it still shows all 12 bars. Those will drop fast within 4 months.

It could be one from Canada or a northern state, in which case it could be 26k miles and not be missing any capacity bars, especially if it's from a broker or dealer who got it at auction.
I wouldn't worry too much about the battery warranty on a 2011 if it still has 12 (or even 11) bars... there's no way it's going to get down to 8 bars in a year at that point.
I recommend getting an AutoCheck account for 30 days (unlimited reports by VIN, unlike CarFax, and cheaper), and run the VINs. They'll tell you in-service dates and if they've been in reported accidents, so it provides a little bit of peace of mind (but not much, as many accidents aren't reported). I also ran the VINs on my cars, and passed on the report for my Sonata to the next owner. Even within a model year, the in-service date can vary wildly. It also will tell you where the car was used, which is useful if it went through auction -- my LEAF came from Michigan, which was a selling point for me, knowing that the battery is much better coming from there than, say, Georgia, Virginia and Missouri (where other LEAFs I was considering came from).

 

[LeftieBiker]

I would go with the Red 2011 SL, that's what I have and those Leaf were built right out of Japan, the 2013 had issues since it was built in Tenn.

Some of the 2013 Leafs have had 'issues' but all of the 2011-2012 cars have an inferior battery pack. Every single one of them.

 

[dhanson865]

I would go with the Red 2011 SL, that's what I have and those Leaf were built right out of Japan, the 2013 had issues since it was built in Tenn.

Some of the 2013 Leafs have had 'issues' but all of the 2011-2012 cars have an inferior battery pack. Every single one of them.

There is no improvement with the 2013 battery as well. So it's

2011 and 2012 with better reliability and original battery
2013 with less reliability and new connector but same battery otherwise.

You'd have to have a very late 2014 to have a chance at a battery that is more heat resistant. You'd have to have a 2015 to be sure to have it and it will be fall of 2017 before we'll have any clue about the improvement of the "lizard" battery.

Or said another way, All of the 2013 battery packs are just as inferior as all the 2012 battery packs.

 

[dhanson865]

my LEAF came from Michigan, which was a selling point for me, knowing that the battery is much better coming from there than, say, Georgia, Virginia and Missouri (where other LEAFs I was considering came from).

No rust? I'd be concerned buying a leaf from the rust belt.

 

[gor29]

There is no improvement with the 2013 battery as well. So it's

2011 and 2012 with better reliability and original battery
2013 with less reliability and new connector but same battery otherwise.

You'd have to have a very late 2014 to have a chance at a battery that is more heat resistant. You'd have to have a 2015 to be sure to have it and it will be fall of 2017 before we'll have any clue about the improvement of the "lizard" battery.

Or said another way, All of the 2013 battery packs are just as inferior as all the 2012 battery packs.

These guides both suggest the 2013 batteries are better than the 2011-2012: http://insideevs.com/used-nissan-leaf-buying-guide/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://ecomento.com/2015/03/19/buyers-guide-used-nissan-leaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At 26000 miles you should have 1 to 2 capacity bars down, that Red 2011 must of just had the Firmware update done since it still shows all 12 bars. Those will drop fast within 4 months.

Where can I find more information about this firmware update? In which situations should I beware of a false 12-bar reading?

Unless price is the highest consideration, I see no reason not to get the 2013.

As long as a 2011 leaf has > 40 mile range, since 40 miles is the most that can be charged overnight with 120VAC with no access to daytime charging (my use case), and it can continue to have this range up through 2019, then I would opt for this option if the total cost after 4 years is lower than the 2013. In particular, if the resale value in 2019 of a 2013 leaf will be rock bottom just like a 2011 leaf, then I would not want to spend another $2100 now.

 

[Valdemar]

Capacity loss data can be reset by dealer or someone with the Consult III tool, after such a reset a 3 bar loser will show all 12 bars for a couple months but they will eventually disappear. I'm not positive but I think you can use Leaf Spy to get the number of "Gids" on a full charge and estimate remaining useful capacity. Other than that you can do a range test if that's an option.

 

[dhanson865]

There is no improvement with the 2013 battery as well. So it's

2011 and 2012 with better reliability and original battery
2013 with less reliability and new connector but same battery otherwise.

You'd have to have a very late 2014 to have a chance at a battery that is more heat resistant. You'd have to have a 2015 to be sure to have it and it will be fall of 2017 before we'll have any clue about the improvement of the "lizard" battery.

Or said another way, All of the 2013 battery packs are just as inferior as all the 2012 battery packs.

These guides both suggest the 2013 batteries are better than the 2011-2012: http://insideevs.com/used-nissan-leaf-buying-guide/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://ecomento.com/2015/03/19/buyers-guide-used-nissan-leaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are incorrect. We have a 722 page thread and a tracking database on the wiki. The guides you see are going by marketing material and physical connector changes.

The truth is 2013 cars have already started losing capacity bars and we have no reason to believe they will do so at a better rate than the 2012s did.

If you don't want to read the wiki and the last 20 pages of the monster thread you can read this shorter thread http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=19667" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The most relevant pages of the monster thread start at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=7190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No one has bothered to add the 2013 bar losers to the wiki tracking yet but I'm sure we'll get around to it as they start rolling in later this summer.

 

[Phatcat73]

2013 hands down

Longer remaining factory warranty
Lighted charge port
Lockable charge port
Longer range
Faster public charging 6.6
You may charge at 110 today but you may upgrade later and enjoy the 6.6
% battery remaining on display
Dark cloth

 

[gor29]

Two more options:

$9500 for 2012 SL with 31k miles and 11 bars
$11000 for 2013 S with 28k miles and 12 bars: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/5006704829.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some of these do not look to be in the best interior/exterior condition but I suppose it will matter little in a few years.

Without knowing the exact battery condition, how much is 11 vs 12 bars worth?

Also, can someone confirm what is the best way to check the true battery capacity? Which reader and which app on iphone and/or android? Thanks in advance.

 

[dhanson865]

Two more options:

$9500 for 2012 SL with 31k miles and 11 bars
$11000 for 2013 S with 28k miles and 12 bars: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/5006704829.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some of these do not look to be in the best interior/exterior condition but I suppose it will matter little in a few years.

Without knowing the exact battery condition, how much is 11 vs 12 bars worth?

Also, can someone confirm what is the best way to check the true battery capacity? Which reader and which app on iphone and/or android? Thanks in advance.

Android / Leaf Spy is what I'd use. You'll need a ODB2 adapter to go with it. Wifi or Bluetooth and a phone that can connect to that. Something like http://smile.amazon.com/WIFI-Wireless-OBD2-scan-tool/dp/B00R59EMJY/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1430662319&sr=1-1&keywords=bluetooth+odb2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you don't have the ODB2/android combo just looking at the bars I wouldn't say 12 bars vs 11 bars matters to price. The "12 bar" leaf could have come from Arizona and be on the verge of dropping the first bar and prone to dropping the 2nd bar quicker. The 11 bar leaf could have just lost its first bar and be from Oregon and won't lose another bar for a long time.

Use carfax/autocheck/etc to figure out where the car was originally sold and anywhere else it was registered to mentally adjust the number of bars remaining.

Use the Leaf Spy / ODB2 to get data but don't trust it if it seems too good to be true.

If you find a 2011 from Arizona with 12 bars you need to check with the Nissan warranty records to see if the battery was replaced. If so good, if not someone reset the battery temporarily and it'll lose several bars in the first few months after that.

 

[gor29]

Both these are from the same region as well (same as the original three in my post).

So all that leaf spy does is give more granular information about the battery capacity of the 12/11 bars, but it could be "fooled" too if someone had reset it before putting the car on the lot for sale?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I would go with the Red 2011 SL, that's what I have and those Leaf were built right out of Japan, the 2013 had issues since it was built in Tenn. The Silver 2013 does have less miles so you can get more miles out of it, have the dealer run a history and ensure it doesn't have the Battery Warrenty Opt Out code, it's something like B033. With that code you won't be able to get the replacement battery in warrenty.

At 26000 miles you should have 1 to 2 capacity bars down, that Red 2011 must of just had the Firmware update done since it still shows all 12 bars. Those will drop fast within 4 months.

I would get the Red 2011 SL and drop a new battery in it later. Always go for the DCQC, you will get to use those 240 Volt EVSE stations around town.

Offer 8000.00 for the 2011 Red SL, if he says no, then walk away & get the Silver 2013 one, those Leaf will sit on the lot for a while.

what issues? The LEAF is actually one of the most "issueless" cars you can buy...

OP; hard to answer your question since you don't mention if Carwings, NAV, etc is important to you but faster charging IS important no matter what your home charging situation is. You will charge publicly one day, this is practically a given.

As far as what car? I would take the 2013 without hesitation (since that is what I am driving now...)

It is a compromise since it does not have Cruise Control (my only regret, albeit a very small one) but I neutral drive a lot anyway...

But the 2013 is under warranty for quite a while longer so you will have that benefit and its more efficient which means you will drive farther with your limited ability to recharge at home.

 

[dhanson865]

Both these are from the same region as well (same as the original three in my post).

So all that leaf spy does is give more granular information about the battery capacity of the 12/11 bars, but it could be "fooled" too if someone had reset it before putting the car on the lot for sale?

can be, but only by using a $10,000 tool that only dealers bother to buy. Use car lots and car repair shops won't have one in 99% of the cases.

You do have to pay attention because a Nissan dealer could have done it during diagnostics of another issue and once a car goes to auction they often don't know the history of the car.

Dealer A could reset the bars and sell it at auction, dealer B could buy it and resell it without knowing the bars were reset.

It doesn't happen often but it has happened to at least one buyer who took it to the media and got compensation. We don't know how many others have been mislead in this manner without noticing or making the correlation and complaining.

If you want hard and fast incontrovertible proof charge the car to full and start driving. You'll know in 50 miles if the remaining charge seems consistent with the number of bars claimed or not.

If the dealer or owner won't allow that change you'll just have to buy it or not and rely on lemon laws and fraud laws if you are the one in ten thousand that gets a reset leaf (or whatever the odds are).

But the Leaf spy can be worth a 2 bar swing. You could have two possible leafs both side by side with 10 bars showing. Leaf A could be on the edge of dropping to 9 bars and Leaf B could have just dropped from 11 bars. The end result leaf B could have as much as 7% more capacity with the same bars showing.

 

[rogersleaf]

Both these are from the same region as well (same as the original three in my post).

So all that leaf spy does is give more granular information about the battery capacity of the 12/11 bars, but it could be "fooled" too if someone had reset it before putting the car on the lot for sale?

Leaf Spy is still your best tool. Personally would not consider paying more than a very low wholesale value for a used Leaf without seeing on Leaf Spy beforehand. However, not sure how someone would set up the tool straight-off-the-shelf without having a Leaf to use ahead of time to configure the bluetooth connection.

 

[dhanson865]

But the Leaf spy can be worth a 2 bar swing. You could have two possible leafs both side by side with 10 bars showing. Leaf A could be on the edge of dropping to 9 bars and Leaf B could have just dropped from 11 bars. The end result leaf B could have as much as 7% more capacity with the same bars showing.

Just to give you more idea of the vagaries of the bars

I'm not going to worry about duplicates at the cusp, I'm sure you aren't worried about the last tenth of a percent. Oh and there are two kinds of bars

capacity bars
100% to 85% = 12 bars (15%)
85% to 78.75% = 11 bars (6.25%)
78.75% to 72.5% = 10 bars (6.25%)
72.5% to 66.25% = 9 bars (6.25%)
66.25% to 60% = 8 bars (6.25%)
60% to 53.75% = 7 bars (6.25%)
53.75% to 47.5% = 6 bars (6.25%)
47.5% to 41.25% = 5 bars (6.25%)
41.25% to 35% = 4 bars (6.25%)
35% to 28.75% = 3 bars (6.25%)
28.75% to 22.5% = 2 bars (6.25%)
22.5% to 16.25% = 1 bar (6.25%)



charge bars http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
100% to 91.5% = 12 bars (8.5%)
91.5% to 84% = 11 bars (7.5%)
84% to 77.9% = 10 bars (6.1%)
77.9% to 70.8% = 9 bars (7.1%)
70.8% to 66.2% = 8 bars (4.6%)
66.2% to 58% = 7 bars (8.2%)
58% to 50.9% = 6 bars (7.1%)
50.9% to 43.4% = 5 bars (7.5%)
43.4% to 36.3 = 4 bars (7.1%)
36.3% to 31.3% = 3 bars (5%)
31.3% to 26% = 2 bars (5.3%)
26% to 17.4% = 1 bar (8.6%)*
Low battery
Very low battery
Turtle

*see range chart and other threads for how dangerously quick you can drop from 1 bar to turtle. Don't rely on expected range at low states of charge.

and note the charge percents I gave were based on a 100% capacity battery all the charge bars get modified if the capacity is below 100%.

The goofiness / vagary of the bars is why people want SOC in percent instead of bars. It's a lot lets confusing with more granularity and on a metric scale instead of Nissan scale.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

But the Leaf spy can be worth a 2 bar swing. You could have two possible leafs both side by side with 10 bars showing. Leaf A could be on the edge of dropping to 9 bars and Leaf B could have just dropped from 11 bars. The end result leaf B could have as much as 12% more capacity with the same bars showing.

Fairly sure your math is a little faulty there... if both have 10 bars (and, assuming they weren't reset), then both are in the 10 bar range (approx. a 6% range). Having just dropped from 11 just means it's at the high end of 10, and the edge of dropping to 9 means it's at the low end of 10, but it's still all one range...